[Closed] No one likes voilence but hooray

nah, i have to disagree. regardless of being wound up he battered the kid with a weight. you dont have to be eddikated to know that you could do some serious harm. if you cant work with yoofs then dont be a teacher.

Wrong forum? [mod: moved]

Still, hooray for common sense and realising that "innocent young people", just like grown-ups, can have the collective personality of a psychotic. (Can't remember whose psychological principle this is but he basically reasoned that when you get lots of people in a group their sense of individual responsibility and morality diminishes and their aggressiveness, cunning and criminality may increase - e.g. riots, looting and mob violence)

: P

Heh. All assemblies tomorrow should be "You see, children, this is why we have rules. Which of us is going to flip out and stave your head in with a dumbell? You just don't know, so what you've got to do is ask yourself, do you feel lucky? Well, do ya?"

Unfortunate for all concerned, but an illuminating lesson in adulthood for the class I imagine.

I'm glad he got off, it's good to know that our system does work from time to time..

i don't know why but I found this quote amusing.. LOL

The court heard that he shouted "die, die, die" as he bludgeoned the boy with the weight after the pupil swore at him.

So it's OK for a teacher to hit a kid in this way?

Beyond belief!*

*Of course we don't know the whole story but...

So basically what they're saying is that beating a 14 year old child round the head with a dumbell while shouting 'die, die, die' isn't attempted murder?

Yes the chap was provoked and no doubt the kid involved was a horrible litte sh1t, however that definitely sounds like attempted murder to me.

Was it a rotating weight? 😉

I like the last line 🙂

voilence? Is that agro in the West Country? 🙂

I'm glad he got off, he had 6 months in prison waiting for the trial didn't he?
Hitting the kid was wrong, and he admits that, but it sounds like he'd been wound up something terrible!

[i]So it's OK for a teacher to hit a kid in this way?[/i]

No. But it's [u]reasonable[/u] for the teacher to use evidence showing that he was under extreme - and planned and filmed - systematic provocation. Which meant that in this case the jury decided that he was not guilty of the crimes with which he was charged.

It still means he's unlikely to work as a teacher again and, as before the incident, he's got a whole load of stress-related and anger-related problems to deal with. But he hasn't got to deal with them in jail.

: P

He hasn't got off, no ones said its ok, he's still been charged with GBH.

They've just said he wasn't in a position to know what he was doing and be in control. They've pushed him to the point he's snapped and lost control because of his mental condition.

Difficult one this, I think kids nowadays get away with far too much due to many reasons including inadequate discipline and too many restrictions placed on teachers. I was a fairly disruptive kid and we had a couple of teachers we would antagonise to see how far we could push them. BUT I don't think you can go about hitting kids over the head with dumbells whilst employed as a teacher. (I presume he is no longer a teacher??) I know we don't know the full story but how would anyone on here feel if it was their child that was battered

Aye it is 😳

The man suffers from a mental illness. He should not have been working with children. His acquittal is the right verdict however.

I can relate to this: I have been prone to bouts of extreme violence, that I have little or no recollection of afterwards. I've caused some quite serious injuries. Something 'snaps' inside me, when I'm under extreme stress, and I can be extremely vicious. I've suffered from this since I was a small child, and hopefully now have things a lot more under control. I'm not allowed to work with children or vulnerable adults as a result. There is every possibility something could trigger off a violent episode in even the most unlikely situations. There is no real 'cure' for this condition, just careful management of my mental state, recognising potential triggers, working out strategies to avoid such situations. At times, drugs have been used when the risk of potential trouble has been high. I'm a lot 'better' than I was, though, although I have to recognise the 'next' episode could have disastrous consequences for myself and/or others.

I very much doubt this poor man was really wanting to kill the child. More like the torment raging inside his mind projected his anger onto a 'target', and drove him to lash out at someone. Other examples of this kind of behaviour manifest themselves as self-harm and other destructive acts.

Poor man. I hope he gets the treatment he seems to desperately need, so that this kind of thing doesn't happen again.

Do feel sorry for the poor kid, no matter how much of a little shit he'd been. He didn't deserve that.

how would anyone on here feel if it was their child that was battered

It's like those goons in the USA who "charm" rattlesnakes & then get bitten

Of course he shouldn't have done it, I don't imagine that's in question in anyone's mind. (You might choose to argue that the "over-protection" of pupils prevented him from taking more reasonable action earlier in the episode - I know some teachers would say exactly that)

I just feel really sorry for the poor guy, why anyone would want to go into teaching is beyond me!

I think this is the right decision, however the real question is why this teacher was put in this situation and what support was he receiving. He clearly was very brittle and I believe receiving care from a community mental health nurse (who clearly is blameless – but then I’m biased) - I’m sure the school/ education authority could have provided more support

I'm still on the fence.
Kids were jerks for screwing with him and I can understand him fighting.
But to beat a kid over the head with a metal object while yelling "die, die, die" is, perhaps, not the most diplomatic solution.
Maybe if he had yelled something different . . .

bring back the cane, and national service.

nail some sense into em.

that would sort out "broken Britain"

Hmmm! Kids are little buggers they pick on people teachers included, we did at school. But smacking a kid with a dumbbell is bang out of order.

Thing is I witnessed a child battering another child, parents called in, parents with no parental skill accuses school of picking on kid even when showed CCTV of him kicking a girls head in for no reason...

Kids are sometimes so badly behaved it comes from the home, and teachers can't control them by verbel chat, we need to be able to chuck kids out of the class for behaving badly and get the parent to pay the bill and maybe something would happen.

Privatise education.

Zaskar, I'm not a teacher but ride with a couple and chat with them ref their work - no way I would do it! I agree with comments ref kids behaviour but cannot agree ref privatise education got to be a big NO NO - I'm sure this will spark a few comments on here!

It still means he's unlikely to work as a teacher again

It could make his CRB check a little tricky!!!!

One of my lessons today "RIGHT THATS IT, I'VE HAD ENOUGH I'M OFF TO GET A DUMBBELL".

I have worked in a vey tough school (had lowest GCSE attainment grades in England at that time) in a very socially deprived area and now work in a Comp in a nicer area. Kids arent as bad as you may think, the stress comes from poor management in the school. A 14 year old swearing at you isnt stressful really. Its just the knowledge that management will make out its your fault for not engaging 20 kids who can hardly write their own name with the finer points of gene therapy.

Judge in summing up seems to suggest CPS have taken the wrong charges to court, so even if this guy has escaped on a "technicality" then there are worse crims walking the streets.

By all accounts the class were playing on the guys recent mental health problems, have to wonder whether he'd got the right support from his senior manageemnt team prior to his return to work.

No matter how much restraint that teacher showed, the kids would have escalated it up another notch until he cracked.

They got the desired result, but not quite what they wanted 🙂

Maybe they learned a valuable life lesson that day.

I'd wager no kid in that school winds up a teacher for a while at least...

On balance the right verdict was returned in my opinion.

There’s a feel on here from some posts that he made a conscious decision to do as he did. If so you’ve not understood the circumstances of the case.

I believe s. 3 (Provocation) of the Homicide Act 1953 extends to ATTEMPTED murder (I maybe wrong on this) –
Where on a charge of murder there is evidence on which a jury can find that the person charged was provoked (whether by things done or by things said or by both taken together) to lose his SELF-CONTROL, the question whether provocation was enough to make a reasonable man do as he did shall be left to be determined by the jury; and in determining that question the jury shall take into account everything both done and said according to the effect which, in their opinion, it would have on a reasonable man.

If there is no loss of control this defence is not available.

The court heard he’d snapped after being terribly goaded by these pupils. There is case law such as R v Humphreys [1995] where the court recognised a particular event can prove to be ‘the last straw’.

This was systematic and targeted abuse that resulted in a reasonable man employed as a teacher to lose his self control.

He's not got off with it, he's done 8 months and is now to be rehabilitated, which I beleived was preferable to a prison sentence in STWland.

I have worked in a vey tough school (had lowest GCSE attainment grades in England at that time) in a very socially deprived area and now work in a Comp in a nicer area.

Back in the day All Saints was considered as one of the better schools in the area (and may still be). However, that means it manages to hang around the national average level.

This was systematic and targeted abuse that resulted in a reasonable man employed as a teacher to lose his self control.

A reasonable man, who'd sought help for his mental illness, and it seems, not really received the effective treatment he needed.

[b]'Horrible me'[/b]
In transcripts of a police interview, which was read out to the court, Mr Harvey said: "We went through the door into the prep room and I remember standing over him with this metal weight and I remember hitting him twice.
"Something happened and I'm sure I dropped it. I remember feeling really peaceful.
"(Education adviser Shahrukh Mugaseth) went with me to the police station and I could see my reflection in the screen.
"It was me, but it was horrible me. I wanted to destroy it but I couldn't get my hands up so I head-butted it.
"I just kept seeing the boy's head with me hitting it twice. I kept seeing it all the time and I thought I had killed him."

****. Heavy duty.

A very sad story, this one. 🙁

Well in the next few weeks a lot of schools will have new ideas for lesssons.

ENGLISH, write an essay about a well loved teacher who suffers a nervous breakdown and attacks a school child.

History, discuss the changes in the law and behaviour of teachers that where brought in after a teacher attacked a school boy in his class back in 2010,

Physics, what would be the force needed to knock sence into a school kid who was upseting the teacher,possibly practical demonstration.

Biology, how to stop blood flow from a serious head wound(first aid content),

Humanities, How many social workers, do gooders, and team leaders should be involved in the retraining of lower non working class familiy school children to a normal and acceptable way of behaviour,

RE, is it wrong to attack somebody and should you offer forgiveness no matter the provocation,

Careers guidance, should you become a teacher ,or a criminal.

Thankfully the child did not die,but serious questions must be asked of the mangement of the school, and heads must roll,for serious negligence for allowing this poor teacher to continue attending school.

Hopefully now the teachers will retake charge of the asylums.

tron, I was talking about the general assumption on this thread that modern kids are horrible because they arent.

Hopefully now the teachers will retake charge of the asylums.

Ooh, Project, quick! There's some Muslim Hoodies raping Swans over there!

I am going to get a dumbell as a desk paperweight...Problem is, as AA says,the kids never get the blame,somebody swears at you? Serves you right for confronting them over their use of mobile phone during class.They have no idea that there might be a consequence to the way they behave...Until they go to local tech and get thrown out for 4 years for swearing at a lecturer.

Thankfully the child did not die,but serious questions must be asked of the mangement of the school, and heads must roll,for serious negligence for allowing this poor teacher to continue attending school.

Absolutely, all his managers must take some responsibility for not seeing it coming.

Problem is, as AA says,the kids never get the blame,somebody swears at you? Serves you right for confronting them over their use of mobile phone during class.

Not all schools are like this. Some have leadership which backs you all the way. Just choose your school carefully and teaching is fine.

robbo, sadly the children are not deemed important enough to choose which school they have to attend.

project - Member

.....but serious questions must be asked of the mangement of the school, and heads must roll,for serious negligence for allowing this poor teacher to continue attending school.

.

😕 "Poor teacher" ? .......well you've certainly changed your attitude towards teachers project !

I thought according to you, all teachers were lazy workshy shysters with stress free cushy jobs.

Was it ditching the Daily Mail, what done it ?

Ernie, some teachers are, as are some of the workforce, sadly this teacher was allowed to go back to school and snapped,like i said questions need to be asked of the managers who sent/allowed him back, also the children in the class and the parents.

Sadly i never read the Daily Mail,

i said questions need to be asked of the managers who sent/allowed him back

They were probably concerned that a teacher having too much time off due to "stress" might upset Daily Mail readers 💡

Humanities, How many social workers, do gooders, and team leaders should be involved in the retraining of lower non working class familiy school children to a normal and acceptable way of behaviour,

This bit, I don't like. No need for the prejudice. Very insulting.

I do agree that this teacher should not have been allowed to work with children though, considering his mental state.

Fair and correct judgement 8)

On a separate note, I bet theres at least one smart-arse loudmouth thats just a tad quieter these days 😕

Sorry I meant that if with troubled kids should be referred instead of holding other kids up.

I do agree that this teacher should not have been allowed to work with children though, considering his mental state.

****in AA....Anyone in a condition such as, should not be teaching in the first place, no question.

Thing is, this condition or illness may have developed over time, and not manifested itself until recently. It's not like a broken leg, where you can do an X-ray and see where the problem is. This man had had time off work, but been deemed fit to work again, which is what he wanted. sadly, he wasn't, and health care professionals perhaps should have recognised this. 🙁

If he didn't do anything wrong, what has his mental health got to do with anything - eh ?

He wasn't found guilty with diminished responsibilities - was he ?

I have got to agree that school procedures and management make so much difference. I've worked in a well supported school where systems were in place to swiftly remove trouble kids with their return not a given. I have also worked in a poor school where students were never delt with properly with no consequence for poor behaviour. The balance of power was essentially with the kids. I can't tell you the number of times doing what this guy did crossed my mind. The difference was that I had control of my emmotions enough that it would never be more than a thought. With the right backup a good teacher can deal with anything; the persona is an act and nothing feels personal. Without support the job is impossible.

Edit- to blame school managment is not always correct either. School management will have their balls felt if the exclusion rate goes too high. Society (national & the local community) should take school exclusions as their failure & not heap the blame on the school trying to deal with the issue. Poor behaviour needs to have consequences & when the majority of deep down descent kids realise this I am convinced they will tow the line to everyones advantage.

Sorry if this is unacceptably realistic, but

for most of you on here with ordinary kids in ordinary state schools, the description of that classroom is an accurate portrayal of what your kids get up to every day

using phones to film teachers = normal
texting your mates during lessons = normal
roaming around classroom assaulting other kids with bits of equipment = normal
telling teachers to **ck off = normal
conspiring with other kids to wind up teachers = normal

most of you don't know what your kids are like in school

if you did, you'd be bl@@dy horrified

and then you'd blame the teachers

My point i guess was, a person who is in a position like this should have the back up for things not to get this far...if he had killed him..life over...as it stands not the case but f@'kin hell, that's going to far anyway you look at it...It should have been dealt with by him and his colleagues before the time when he lamps someone with something heavy...only now will the problem be fully addressed for all concerned...we had mad teachers at school but not that mad by a long, long way.

He wasn't found guilty with diminished responsibilities - was he ?

No, he was found Not Guilty of a crime that can only be comitted by a person with sufficient [i]mens rea[/i] to have the ability to know what they were doing, at the time of the event, was wrong.

[b]Actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea.[/b]

Cobvert; [b]very[/b] well put.
It does come down to management.In Scotland it is almost impossible to be expelled,exclusion tables are also published in the papers making strong management look like the school is rough.I see the way they treat weaker colls by how bad behaviour can be when I am doing please takes,and I can see why this guy snapped.

One positive I see is that a lot of people are realising that teachers have a right to a safe enviroment as well as pupils.If our local councils implemented their own policies on treatment of staff in my work,schools would be a lot emptier. I love teaching mind,I just recognise there are problems in the treatment of the few who disrupt,and it is just a few.

I think eldridge was a bit harsh,subby "normal" for "happens" IMO

Eldridge whilst in some cases you maybe right in many you are just plain wrong, no kid has sworn at me for at least two year for example.

I read about this guy in the paper. (normally try and stay away from the tabloids) Article said that he was already seeking help for stress etc, and had recently reduced his hours. We can never judge cases like this as the papers will sensationalise everything, but it does appear to be the correct decision.

My school wasn't too bad for baiting of teachers (obviously there are always the odd occasion and I'm sure everyone will have seen the odd teacher leaving the room in tears) but I work in a school for a day recently. Had a teacher come in to the IT room before her lesson so someone could show her how to restrict access to porn sites as the kids always managed to find sites that were not blocked. Once the kids were in, she had a running battle for the next 60 minutes with a couple of ringleaders baiting her with the assistance of their class mates. She didn't lose her rag but the lesson was hell from the word go, no one got any work done, they chucked water over a computer, one got hauled outside a couple of times where he gave a better dressing down than the teacher, when I walked back in later in the day he was in the heads office with letters being sent home. Sounded like it happens every week 🙄

He was found not guilty of attempted murder - he pleaded guilty to GBH though and will be sentenced.. so he is deemed responsible for that I suppose.

From what I heard on the radio, he'd had a breakdown and been off for 8 months; he [i]did not feel he was ready to come back to work[/i] but he was encouraged to I think.

The kids knew he was vulnerable and organised their attempts to get him to crack, one girl even brought in a video camera to video it. It's not to say that all kids are bad, but this is all classic Lord of the Flies stuff.

As mentioned above, it's an important lesson, and I hope they learn from it.

things tend to be reported in a misleading way .this man hasn't been let off ,he will be sentenced for a section 20 wounding [ gbh ] .still a serious offence and as the victim is under 18 he will never work with children again - which may be a blessing . i agree with earlier comments that his managers who allowed him back to work have a degree of responsibility .sounds like this was a time bomb ticking .

[i]Afterwards, Ch Insp Paul Winter, of Nottinghamshire Police, described the investigation as "extremely complicated", needing to be handled in a "highly sensitive way by officers with specialist skills." [/i]

Interesting that none of you quoted that.

I think eldridge was a bit harsh,subby "normal" for "happens" IMO

Happened daily in my high school back 15 years ago (and it was the best school in the area apparently). Some teachers left with mental health problems, one killed herself with an alcohol overdose. But it wasn't all kids, it was only a few in each class. And it wasn't all teachers, it was only the ones who were clearly afraid of disciplining the kids. The ones who would repeatedly say "please stop that", "please stop or I'll have to send you out" were walked all over, had ink flicked at them, books thrown at them. We had 3 teachers I can remember who were very good at maintaining control and are the classes I learned most from, they had different techniques but all followed the same principle - you got one warning per month give or take, after that warning you were dealt with severely, but always treated with respect and time if you were behaving well, regardless of history.
One teacher was built like a brick outhouse - his "deal with" was to bawl so loudly at you that winced and to hike you out of class by your collar, allowing you to return and treating you with respect and like a normal human again if you didn't repeat. One student tried to raise the bar by yelling back, he was taken into a side room, a lot of shouting happened and then all went quiet and the guy came out and never put a foot wrong again 😯

One was fairly small and weak but again would act the second you overstepped the line and take you out or deliver you to the head, but always maintained a positive attitude when you were being good and would never make you feel stupid for asking a question.

The third would launch chairs at you if you were cheeky. I mean literally throw them across the class at you. It happened infrequently and it was scary enough to really keep everyone, even the cocky jerks, quiet and studious. But when you were working well he would sink every last second he had and hours of overtime into helping you develop your skills.

I enjoyed school despite not always being on the right side of teachers, I knew the consequences when I misbehaved and I knew I'd be taken seriously, laughed and joked with and and helped if I behaved.

I think it's primarily down to the quality of the teachers, but I think their skills have been hampered by worries over whether their school will support them and whether they'll get sacked for occasionally being scary to keep kids in line.

Good for him. he gets my vote.

I'm rather glad now that I recently removed an antique knobkerry and a ceremonial club from the back of one of my teaching rooms as someone could have got the wrong impression after this case. I do still have a heavy metal (sic) cowbell on my desk, perhaps that should go too?

I don't know if the cctv footage has already been posted :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/8653872.stm

He certainly looks "possessed" as he emerges from the storeroom after throwing the dumbell out into the corridor. All in all, a pretty grim episode I reckon 😐