“Very simple Fred – none of the people that are involved are MTBers nor do they post here, hence, safe to conclude that you are not part of that group. “

So, because I’m not ‘involved’ in your particular charity activity, you assume you know about any other aspect of my life?

You don’t, end of. You really have no idea who I am, what I do or don’t do. The world is a bigger place than just you.

“Dunning-Kruger effect?”

I have long suspected similar.

Does anyone know whether the ONS classes people who travel to a place of work, then spend all day quoting internet drivel on STW as being in or out of work?

Some of the posts in this thread have more contemptuous smarm in them than I thought it was possible to communicate in writing.

So at least I learned something.

“that 37000 people have cause to celebrate a new job following unemployment should be good enough in itself..”

It should be, but rising homelessness for one, somewhat tempers this. For any ‘good’ news the tories may chose to focus on, there will be many more bits of ‘bad’ news. The net effect is that society is declining, not improving.

No Fred, I assumed nothing, but merely guessed that

teamhurtmore – Member
But I am sure that you are helping in other ways…
POSTED 2 HOURS AGO #

So all is good! The more that people actually do something the better, hey? No point leaving it to governments….

On the people being involved in these factual stats not being MTBers

why bet on that, no one has suggested it? 😯

… but I prefer to look at the actual, physical reality of people’s lives. Such as the massive increase in food bank use, just to use one example. The ‘facts’ of this are that increasing numbers of people cannot afford to buy food to eat.

I don’t remember there being any food banks when I was a kid. Their use has increased exponentially since then.

fin25 – Member

I think looking at employment/unemployment figures alone is pointless. Yes, more people are in employment than ever before. That is a tiny part of the story. Three million working people in poverty?
That’s three million people who are NOT BENEFITING from being in a working family.
This narrative that, once someone has a job, everything is fine is nonsense.

Add in underemployment- now falling at last from record levels but still about 50% higher than it was 10 years ago. That’s been estimated at a 5 million hour a week shortfall. To put that another way, the equivalent of 140000 full time jobs.

Nice footnote from the BBC on today’s figures, btw:

“The ONS is 95% confident that the figure of a 37,000 fall in unemployment is accurate give or take 79,000. That means that the fall in unemployment is not statistically significant.”

The level of employment is a second derivative issue – far more important for all concerned is the level of productivity. Our record there is pretty dismal and without it, many of the real issues described above cannot be tackled.

Well this is the Work and Pensions Secratary’s ideal;

Jobs of the future may not have stable hours, holiday pay, sick pay, or pensions, the Work and Pensions Secretary has said.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dwp-gig-economy-damian-green-speech-holiday-minimum-wage-sick-pay-hours-a7421071.html

still, gets those pesky statistics down…

IT contractors typically choose self employed, no pension, no sick pay, no health insurance .. its not about the terms and conditions its about the wages. Also they do this to pay less tax.

The issue we have in the UK is scams to get round minimum wage and tax law and agencies / contractors who facilitate this. Add on top an unli ited supply of cheap manpower and you have a problem

Major factor in these disagreements is the reliance on stats. Typical example….a working stw member reads a (biased on left or right) newspaper and comes to a conclusion. I’d bet that if that person actually went and spent some time with people in a homeless persons hostel, soup kitchen, mental health ward, walked the streets taking the time to get to get to know the lives and back stories of these people they have an opinion on, said opinion would change and you’d realise life is shit out there for many many people (which is unacceptable in a country with so much money)…and a lot of it is because of issues that are out of their control.

Poverty. Hugely manipulated. There are definitions which include having the money for a holiday. Even TMH linked definition of absolute poverty isn’t absolute it’s benchmarked against the median income. So for example as pensions rise poverty goes up. As someone with Indian relavtives and having travelled extensively in Asia poverty here is very minor in relation.

We all have a social conscience imo, the issue is how do we pay the bills ?

Look at Greece, very generous payments until …. the music stopped along with their ability to keep borrowing money

On the subject of foodbanks….and don’t get me wrong here, I think they are doing a great job for a lot of people. However…if theres a foodbank down the road and I’m a bit skint, then I’d probably nip in there to see what was up for grabs. If it wasn’t there, I wouldn’t.

So its not surprising that more people are using foodbanks is it? They never existed before!

edit:sorry Jim, just spotted your post above saying similar.

However…if theres a foodbank down the road and I’m a bit skint, then I’d probably nip in there to see what was up for grabs. If it wasn’t there, I wouldn’t.

So its not surprising that more people are using foodbanks is it? They never existed before!

You can’t just turn up and fill your boots. You need to be referred and will be given a voucher for so many days provision. My MiL volunteers in a food bank. Believe me they are both a much needed safety net and last resort for those who use them.

In addition to the above I should also say that I am deeply ashamed to live in a so-called first world country where food banks are deemed necessary and are now seemingly accepted as the norm.

if theres a foodbank down the road and I’m a bit skint, then I’d probably nip in there to see what was up for grabs

oh, see how out of touch you are? Food banks don’t work like that…

I expect Carney will push up interest rates soon to control inflation as all this extra money floods into the economy.

Look at Greece, very generous payments until …. the music stopped along with their ability to keep borrowing money

Is there a rule, like Godwins, for people who shoehorn Brexit themes into any and every conversation.
D’oh!

EVB and coyote – who is denying that life is shit for some folk, and the reasons can be out of their control or that its acceptable to have a need for foodbanks?

When Carney does raise rates, there will be v real problems with indebtedness.

Major factor in these disagreements is the reliance on stats. anecdotes/extrapolation

FTFY

oh, see how out of touch you are? Food banks don’t work like that…

well of course I’m out of touch….I’m fortunate not to think about using one.

I’m probably out of touch with a lot of other things too, so whats your point??

I’m probably out of touch with a lot of other things too, so whats your point??

That you’re out of touch? 💡

I think the point is to educate yourself before spouting DWP falsehoods and getting shot down?

Such as the massive increase in food bank use, just to use one example.

Free food? Of course if you offer free food people will take it. The only person I know who uses a food bank also spends a fair amount on weed every month. Is the foodbank subsidising his drug habit?

No surprise. Rich people arguing poverty isn’t as bad as it really is and its the manipulation of figures….

Wow IRC, one example of gaming the system over 500000 or so genuine cases.

Edit, possibly gaming the system, we don’t know the guys true story, just some anecdotal “bloke down the pub sez” horseshit

And of course, nothing like the reality of food bank users, often to ashamed to ask for help until almost forced to go for help…

If it’s free food, why don’t you rock up and claim yours.
Report back here on how you fair

No surprise. Rich people arguing poverty isn’t as bad as it really is and its the manipulation of figures….

EVB perhaps you missed the irony in the OP’s point, or simply choosing to make it for him!?!

Wow IRC, one example of gaming the system over 500000 or so genuine cases.

What? Checked them all have you?

Have you?

Defensive, much?

Isn’t neo-liberalism great? All at each others throats so divide and conquer can prevail for the haves in our society.

Isn’t neo-liberalism great? All at each others throats so divide and conquer can prevail for the haves in our society.

Indeed…

Or to put it another way, we are all so busy worrying about how many are cheating the system that we don’t notice how many the system cheats.

Or to put it another way, we are all so busy worrying about how many are cheating the system that we don’t notice how many the system cheats.

Agree.

Call me soft but one child in poverty is too many. Poverty is morally acceptable when there is no surplus in the system. We have a significant surplus in the global economy – yet people go hungry, die from preventable disease and fight over ‘limited’ resources that are not limited. Whether a child’s parent works or does not – how is this situation justifiable?

who is denying that life is shit for some folk, and the reasons can be out of their control[/u] or that its acceptable to have a need for foodbanks

So why screw them further through unfair assessment for work procedures and slashing benefits for already vulnerable people? Why not go after the Philip Greens of this world, you know the “wealth creators” so beloved of the right.

What Coyote sed.

There seems to be an attitude that we blame those with the need rather than those who could help alleviate the need but chose not to.

Very simple Fred

Playing the ball or the man ?

Call me soft but one child in poverty is too many. Poverty is morally acceptable when there is no surplus in the system. We have a significant surplus in the global economy – yet people go hungry, die from preventable disease and fight over ‘limited’ resources that are not limited. Whether a child’s parent works or does not – how is this situation justifiable?

Don’t be silly, we can justify it be stigmatising them as scroungers and de-humanising them.

Rope the right wing press in to help and it’s job done.

DrJ – Member

Very simple Fred

Playing the ball or the man ?

You’ll get nowhere on this forum softening your words with sports-themed analogies 😉

fwiw i find clodhopper’s arguing style vastly different from freddibnah/rudeboy. (*waves 😀 )
Unless its ‘fred’ used in the parlance of bikesnob.nyc?

everything is hunky dory in UKPLC

Klunk, any fool knows that (alongside sufferers of severe and enduring mental illness, and those with moderate to severe learning difficulties,) the very infirm elderly and people with Alzheimer’s don’t vote in the numbers that more physically and mentally well elderly people do. So looking after these people properly doesn’t really help you win elections.

Being lobbied by care contractors might though. 🙁

So why screw them further through unfair assessment for work procedures and slashing benefits for already vulnerable people? Why not go after the Philip Greens of this world, you know the “wealth creators” so beloved of the right.

Why indeed?

Who is supporting unfair assessment on this thread?

Ditto slashing benefits? The only real issue is if/when benefits become a disincentive to work/penalise work, since most agree that work is the best route out of poverty. But there have been no posts on that topic.

Action is being taken against the likes of Philip Green – where the law permits – and against tax evasion, albeit not enough agreed.

So anyway what has this all got to do with the good news on employment – this is the positive foundation on what most of us actually agree on in terms of outcomes?

since most agree that work is the best route out of poverty. But there have been no posts on that topic.

I bet the 3 million working poor in Britain might not agree.