Yes and no, no because our legal system doesn’t work that way and every case should be reviewed.

In this case, I don’t agree; justice delayed is justice denied.

Moving on from that, the latest ‘revelation’ is both shocking and completely unsurprising at the same time; it must, surely, increase the chances of criminal prosecutions https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68079300

The headline doesn’t really hint at the content.
Truly appalling behaviour.

To what extent was that bastion of the british business establishment, tim parker, in his capacity as then chairman involved?
I doubt his hands were clean.

Moving on from that, the latest ‘revelation’ is both shocking and completely unsurprising at the same time; it must, surely, increase the chances of criminal prosecutions https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68079300

Indeed, as I said yesterday, surely some senior police and CPS/Procurator Fiscal are now meeting to discuss this from a criminal prosecution position?

Rightly or wrongly, surely ALL the convictions have to be null and void now by default? and ‘lots of’ compensation paid unless there is real evidence of wrong-doing?

The difficulty with that is the precedent it sets for governments to dictate to the courts what to do.  We pride ourselves in this country on the independence of the judiciary and parliament and it doesn’t sit right with a lot of people in the legal world because: if parliament can direct that all PO convictions are overturned, parliament could direct that all convictions of people COVID offences should be overturned, or all PPE fraud cases, or misconduct in public office cases etc.  Or vice versa to force courts to convict people.  That said, this is precisely what parliament are proposing doing.  It may have been better to fund the appeal courts, legal aid and work with the judiciary to find a way to accelerate and simplify these cases but still leave it to judges to do the actual decision making in each case.

We know the system was flawed, it’s a proven matter of fact…. so that sets a high bar of ambiguity.

I think much of the issue is actually that many people pled guilty.  That creates a real mess, and indeed probably contributes to some investigators still believing today that they were guilty.  That sort of scenario happens all the time, indeed we see people here getting upset when an accused “negotiates” a guilty plea to careless rather than dangerous driving.  Its a bit of a messy bit of process, and when the whole system works well might fall into the evidence given yesterday of “pragmatism” but what it does is increase the risk of pleas of convenience and miscarriages of justice because nobody actually has to look properly at the evidence for a plea.

God knows I’ve left jobs before, when I come across this kind of bollocks… I was lucky enough to be able to walk away rather than relying the job to pay my mortgage or whatever.

Some people can’t afford to walk out of a job, and I don’t really blame them for that. .they may be coerced into towing the company line, and thus, become part of the probelm.

I’m not saying people would have to walk out immediately – but some of these people have been there for 20+ years and despite all the scandals are still there, ten years after anyone in the business must have been aware that something was wrong.  How overpaid/unemployable would you need to be to turn a blind eye for a decade or more?

It seems many if not most of the POL investigation teams had worked at POL for all or most of their careers. Walking away from a job that pays well with a good pension is very difficult I would have thought.

You are probably right – there is a mentality in some places (and I image POL HQ could be one of them) that keeping your head down and quietly playing the game is the way to incremental salary increases and an ever increasing defined benefit pension.  None of that would stop anonymous whistleblowing or gently questioning management – none of the witnesses so far seems to have suggested they tried to raise a red flag.

Add to that POL have, imo, a high level of excess middle and upper management left over from prior to privatisation.

The PO is not privatised.  I know the government would like to give the impression that this is some shonky private company stuff – they are owned by tax payers.  IF theres a dodgy culture driven by shareholders thats ministers not private equity firms!  Whilst they would like us to perceive PO’s as places to buy stamps they are effectively local facilities for transacting with government and thats why its not privatised.  Its how lots of people got, and indeed many still do get, their benefits, pensions etc.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68121257

Kemi Bedenoch sacking post office chair who’s only been in place since Dec 2022 looks to me like the gov appearing to do something than actual action.

Kemi wants to be party leader therefore:

– doesn’t want to be tainted by any claims she sat on her hands and did nothing during the scandal

– wants to send a message to the party faithful that she can make big decisions quickly

That said if you’ve had over a year as chairman of the board and you’ve:

– not instigated any significant governance changes

– still seem to have a problem in the organisation with cover up culture and not providing fu disclosure

– still have the same CFO who’s been part of that board for most of the time of the scandal

– still have a CEO who has presided over all the spin and lies since Vennels left, hasn’t instituted significant organisational change or seemingly fixed the culture…

then it’s presumably time for someone who can drive change.  Whether Kemi will pick someone good enough to do that, or just a Tory faithful will be interesting to watch!

Cynical mode on: I’m not so sure Kemi is interested in governance changes, as much as someone who can be relied on to downplay the role of the government in the cover-up and delay of the past decade.

Private Eye really going for the jugular now when it comes to the cosy threesome between Fujitsu, the Post Office and this government. Doesn’t look like they went out of their way to find a Post Office Minister with no links to Fujitsu.

If you want to understand the British Establishment just read page 8 of latest Private Eye. The photo is from the 2014 Tory Carlton Club dinner. It includes Liz Truss, Lucy Frazer, former Post Office CEO Paula Vennells & current postal minister Kevin Hollinrake. pic.twitter.com/7cU6CMz7Po

— Michael Crick (@MichaelLCrick) January 31, 2024

Whenever I read a political biography, it’s always eyebrow raising how much they all know each other.

I really believe Mr Gilbert. I’m sure he is telling the truth.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68253136

I am somewhat confused about his, incorrect, argument the bbc hadnt picked up on it whilst he was in charge.
At the risk of pointing out the bloody obvious he had access to rather more information than them.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/feb/13/ex-post-office-boss-gave-fujitsu-bonus-contract-despite-warnings-whistleblowers-says

I don’t know why I’m even surprised any more.

I really believe Mr Gilbert. I’m sure he is telling the truth.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68253136

There’s something interesting about old bad people coming out of the woodwork in this inquiry.

Not sure what but I might not look the same at a bus holiday group again, or people in garden centres. Not knowing many oldies, I might have and “old people are nice” blind spot from just knowing grandparents and a few of their friends. Truth is today’s 70-80 year olds includes the workplace arseholes of the 1980s-2000s.

Not sure what but I might not look the same at a bus holiday group again, or people in garden centres. Not knowing many oldies, I might have and “old people are nice” blind spot from just knowing grandparents and a few of their friends. Truth is today’s 70-80 year olds includes the workplace arseholes of the 1980s-2000s.

Why would you think the current 70-80 years old are any different to any other age group you might choose to compare with? There are arseholes in every age group. Just because older people are now perhaps more frail and have reduced physical and maybe mental capability doesn’t make them nicer, better than younger age groups. And everybody has a history….. good, bad, indifferent.

Looking at an old person now where they might be a bit bent over, walking slowly, unable to lift heavy weights etc doesn’t necessarily bear any relationship to how they were when they were younger.   I say this as a 76 year old.

Just not something I’d thought of that’s all, it didn’t surprise me.

seems bonkers if true

🚨 NEW: The former Post Office boss says he was told to delay compensation payouts to sub-postmasters so the Tories could "limp" into the next election with more money to spend

[@thetimes]

— Politics UK (@PolitlcsUK) February 17, 2024

head of the past office says he has messages from government confirming it all

It’s front page of the Times today. With full story on page 2.

Cynical mode on: I’m not so sure Kemi is interested in governance changes, as much as someone who can be relied on to downplay the role of the government in the cover-up and delay of the past decade.

Not too far off then. Looks like they picked him to just sit there contemplating retirement and picking up his cheque, then got a bit miffed when he actually started doing the job of a chairman, digging around, and generally being unhappy with the state of the business and the attitude of its only shareholder (HM Government).

It’s been patently clear throughout that the government is uninterested in justice and fair compensation for the sub postmasters, why should anyone expect that to change except on a purely superficial level?

And in the Guardian/Observer too.

In their online addition, it’s currently below an article about how HMRC investigations into offshore tax dodging has halved in the past five years.

You’d think that with all the outrage this has rightfully generated, the sensible thing would be to do right by these people

Not Kemi Badanoch though.

The only think that matters to her is her leadership ambitions

Just when you think they can’t sink any lower, they always manage to pull it out of the bag

It’s all just been a game.to the government since it came to light around 2012, the situation for all postmasters across the country (not just the convicted) has been used for political wrangling.

It’s a tricky watch.

The dishonest head of a crooked organisation vs the dishonest representative of a different crooked organisation.

It’s hard to root for either side.

@boomerlives – what do you mean?

Gov vs Staunton, I assume.

Kemi Badanoch was meant to make a statement to parliament this afternoon regarding her sacking of Post Office chairman Henry Staunton.

In what is now the usual ministerial style, she’ll be sending a minion along on her behalf instead

He’s claiming they told him to delay payments to postmasters and that he had to ‘take the rap’ for the delay in payments. She’s saying that’s a ‘pack of lies’

Hmmmmmm… who to believe?

Indeed.

Kemi vs Staunton in ‘someone is lying, but you know I’m trustworthy’

I am also astonished in News coverage just how small KemiB is. Is the entire govt made up of possessed action figures who have come to life to wreak evil?

In common with many of her present ministerial peers, she also appears to be as thick as a boxing day turd, yet be staggeringly arrogant and obnoxious with it.

That would explain why the membership all love her. She’s a shoe in for the future leader of the party, apparently

It’ll be interesting to hear the cooked up work of fiction her minion will be sent off to read to the house this afternoon

she also appears to be as thick as a boxing day turd

par for the course in government to employ someone in a a role for which they have zero experience or expertise (bit of computer programmign and glorified admin assitant at Coutts)  – ffs, how can anyone at her level think they know better than a time served Chairman – obnoxious and arrogant is only touching the surface.

if she ever was a shoehorn job for leadership i’d be praying for bojo again..

ffs, how can anyone at her level think they know better than a time served Chairman

Whilst I have no time for her the same could be asked about people daring to challenge a time served CEO like vennells.
Given he was brought in in 2022 I would give him some benefit of the doubt but considering the PO sat around for most of 2023 not a lot even if he is right about being told to sit around.

ffs, how can anyone at her level think they know better than a time served Chairman – obnoxious and arrogant is only touching the surface.

mmm… whilst I’ve no time for Kemi I’m not sure what the concept of a “time served Chairman” is or why anyone would assume that experienced company Chairmen are anything other that accomplished spin doctors, politicians (with a small p) and liers.  Many have come from exactly the same sort of backgrounds as ministers, and just like MPs will have often trod on a few people to get to where they are in life.

playing devils advocate on Vennels, she achieved what she set out to do, which was to make the PO more profitable, the fact she hid a major issue which will have affected the PO’s saleability is another matter.  Chairmen -yes i too have mixed views having ‘reported’ to 3 of them, there are some very good ones that get there through a lot of epxerience   – others via treading on people and just taking up a salary – the role of which i always find to be an odd one -a mix of experience to hand/guide to the CEO and also the “buffer” between shareholders and the operating board.

In common with many of her present ministerial peers, she also appears to be as thick as a boxing day turd, yet be staggeringly arrogant and obnoxious with it.

You just know she spent most of the weekend screaming down the phone at various hapless civil servants. I know it’s hard to use the term ‘unministerial’ any more, as that ship sailed a while ago, but it must be an absolute nightmare to work with these people, as evidenced by this ‘It’s my last day!’ tweet from someone with the Twitter password.

You just know she spent most of the weekend screaming down the phone at various hapless civil servants.

She also went on the offensive via ranting on Twitter, which is hardly very ministerial either.

Given that her ‘I’m coming to the house of commons to provide proof’ has now been downgraded to having a junior underling read a statement on her behalf, I’m expecting a lot of vague non-commital platitudes, probably after the lawyers have told her to wind her neck in

The whole Post Office scandal is a spot that Rishi desperately does not want squeezed any more in the run up to an election. Because if the whole truth comes out now, it will do a lot of damage to the government. The sensible thing to do in response to the Times story is to pretty much ignore it, but Kemi is as dumb as a sack of frogs and wants to turn everything into a do or die confrontation.

There comes a point when endlessly doubling down and issuing threats stops making you look powerful, and starts being a total liability.

I imagine someone Tucker-like has told her to STFU.

Hmmmmmmm….

Because if the whole truth comes out now, it will do a lot of damage to the government.

And yet if they had been sensible they could have turned it into a positive since whilst the tories hold a lot of the blame there would be enough to pass on to Labour and the lib dems. So if they had really jumped on it they could have come across as the fixers whilst blaming the others.

There comes a point when endlessly doubling down and issuing threats stops making you look powerful, and starts being a total liability.

Even then it can still work so long as the evidence is in your favour. I assume the rapid reverse ferret is due to someone going “ermmm, ahhhhh, boss I think he has a copy of this memo….”

No-one’s backing down, but someone’s got to be fibbing.

Who’s got the docs to prove it?

I shouldn’t think that we’ll need to wait too long to find the answer to that particular cliffhanger.

The way she came out punching today had a touch of the Johnathan Aitkin about it though.

The Times will probably already have the applicable incriminating documents ready to go on tomorrow’s front page

Looks like Staunton was a meticulous contemporaneous record taker. He went as far as to email these so they would be date-stamped by the PO’s internal email system. Which also shows that he was an accurate judge of character of those he was dealing with.

Nothing that Badenoch has come up with so far backs up her claim that he lied out of bitterness at his dismissal. All hot air and bluster.

So she has possibly lied to the House, and defamed Staunton on Twitter. I do hope there are some corroborating documents ready to go.

It could be that someone at the Times has been asked to put a pin in Kemi’s obvious leadership ambitions. If she’s fallen into what should have been an obvious trap from her position, she has no leadership or political abilities anyway.

The scandal is just getting worse and worse the deeper it’s dug into….

BBC News – Cameron government knew Post Office ditched Horizon IT investigation

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68146054

read that with increasing incredulity

the line ‘refused to comment while the public inquiry is ongoing ‘  is piss boiling