More than 300 killed in Saudi Hajj stampede

Very sad news!
How do people get killed in stampedes? Is it a case of being pushed over and then essentially trampled?

The safety history of Mina isn’t great. Looks like the stampedes are an annual occurrence. Surely they can change the layout to deal with this?!

Is it a case of being pushed over and then essentially trampled?

Suffocation and crushing, just like Hillsborough. Horrible, just horrible 🙁

How do people get killed in stampedes? Is it a case of being pushed over and then essentially trampled?

Crushing and asphyxiation.

The safety history of Mina isn’t great. Looks like the stampedes are an annual occurrence. Surely they can change the layout to deal with this?!

They have tried. Several times. Roads have been widened, obstructions cleared etc, but it’s just the sheer volume, and unpredictably, of the crowd.

Yes, very sad news 🙁

How do people get killed in stampedes? Is it a case of being pushed over and then essentially trampled? Surely they can change the layout to deal with this?

Squashed as they stand. Nasty business.

Maybe the permanent fix would be altering that there religious requirement to travel to Mecca. Although that might be another argument for another thread.

I’m not a religious man, but I’m slightly in awe of the faith people have to do Hajj. And Ramadan.

Shame theses accidents keep occurring though.

‘Tis very scary being in a crowd like that. I went to a concert many moons ago which was all standing. Obviously everyone was crowding to the front. They told everyone to move back, alas for some mad reason halfway back was a barrier we were in front of, that was pretty hairy feeling a relatively small number (hundreds) of people pressing us up against it.

Makes sense 🙁 . I guess there’s no chance of helping people up if there’s a torrent of people running.
I’ve been to Reading festival enough times to feel the push and waves rippling through the crowd but everyone’s helping each other out.

‘Tis very scary being in a crowd like that.

Agreed, all the agency seems to be taken away at an individual level – it’s an incredible feeling of powerlessness.

The safety history of Mina isn’t great. Looks like the stampedes are an annual occurrence. Surely they can change the layout to deal with this?!

They have but the volume of people involved is almost unimaginable.

edit: Sad to say that the death toll is still being revised upwards.

Very sad, with the crane accident that’s 420 540 deaths in a couple of weeks. You can imagine many of the injuries will be serious and for people who have little access to sophisticated medical treatment

One of the issues with the Hajj is some of the rituals require / encourage the crowd to work themselves up into a frenzy, eg they are stoning the devil. Sadly this is not a good mix when combined with very crowded confined spaces.

As for numbers yes it’s amazing, I’ve been to Jeddah a number of times and the whole airport and immediate area is setup to transit these huge numbers and the area around Mecca is now hugely developed to cope. The Saudis have tried to regulate the flow of people but it’s very difficult not least when they are emotionally in a fervour

Death toll from Saudi Hajj stampede rises to 717, with at least 805 others injured, officials say

dreadful.

Terrible the sheer scale of the numbers of dead, but when you read further they are just going to three pillars to throw stones at them as they represent the devil, sorry but you are all bonkers.

Oh Dear.

Can’t imagine the change in a persons outlook from one of Awe and Expectation to, well, Dismay and Pain.

Very sad indeed.

benji – Member
Terrible the sheer scale of the numbers of dead, but when you read further they are just going to three pillars to throw stones at them as they represent the devil, sorry but you are all bonkers.

hard not to agree benji

youd think it would test the faith of believers

benji – Member
sorry but you are all bonkers.

kimbers – Member
hard not to agree benji

Alas, it is not hard to disagree at all. (I wondered when this thread would take a turn toward religion!) I mean, we human beings participate in mass rituals of all sorts: sports events, music events, political rallies (in some places). They may well have, but I hope nobody said of the people who attended Hillsborough, ‘they were just going to stare at a bunch of men kicking a round thing on the grass… sorry, but they are all bonkers.’

We are human. We get involved in mass events. When people die or suffer as a result, it is deeply sad.

List of human stampedes.
Looking at the list it’s all sorts of events- Shopping, culture, sporting, music, religious & theater
Not fair to bring religion into this.

TBF quite a lot of Muslims aren’t impressed by the Saudi’s money grabbing around Mecca. One described it to me as their Las Vegas!!

@wwas turely dreadful

At least they get to finally see the virgins upstairs

Sad, but not entirely unexpected.

@benji they are not bonkers it’s their turely held belief to which they are perfectly entitled. What is in question is given the knowledge of how they will be whipped up emotionally is it sensible to have so many people ? Managing the Hajj has been a major problem for Saudi for a very long time and it’s intensified with cheap air travel as its a religious duty to make the pilgrimage once in your lifetime if you can afford it. Given form many that th cost is very high relative to their income they wish to make the most of the trip, to be as religious as possible and that further inflames the emotions

Sad, but not entirely unexpected.

Can we expect the same sort of response if a couple of 747’s go down on the same day?

People are great at seeing the victims of tragedies as ‘the other’, aren’t they?

“Not to worry it’s just a load of people I probably don;t know and can’t identify with who follow a silly religion and I expect they’re all jolly cheerful about it anyway despite a terrifying and probably prolonged death.”.

fuxsake.

stw’s full of compassion when it’s ‘one of our own’.

Bunch of strangers? Sod ’em.

*and breathe*

Surely they can change the layout to deal with this?!

The Saudi’s couldn’t organise a piss up in a brewery let alone crowd manage millions of people.

@benji they are not bonkers it’s their turely held belief to which they are perfectly en…….Ssssccccchhhhhhhwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwssssccchhhhhhhhhhhhhh<white-noise>ccccchhhhhhhhhhhhwwwwwwwwwwwwsssssssssssssss

Yep, bonkers. It’s akin to stampeding for the opportunity to try a glass slipper on 2 fat slags and a fit peasant.

The Saudi’s couldn’t organize a piss up in a brewery let alone crowd manage millions of people.

I should hope they can’t…

gatsby – Member

@benji they are not bonkers it’s their turely held belief to which they are perfectly en…….Ssssccccchhhhhhhwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwssssccchhhhhhhhhhhhhh<white-noise>ccccchhhhhhhhhhhhwwwwwwwwwwwwsssssssssssssss
Yep, bonkers. It’s akin to stampeding for the opportunity to try a glass slipper on 2 fat slags and a fit peasant.

Isn’t it a bit early in the day to be snorting coke?

Weirdest post ever.

Now, back to the fact that hundreds of people have just tragically lost their lives…

Bunch of strangers? Sod ’em.

Without wishing to sound blunt, that’s the correct way to deal with this sort of thing. Whilst it’s very tragic for all involved, I’m NOT involved, so I don’t feel any loss.

I’ll have enough grief of my own to deal with in my life without wasting energy mourning the loss of people I don’t know.

Feels like divine retribution for them not opening up the site to help house the millions of refugees currently fleeing the conflict on their doorstep.

Feels like divine retribution for them not opening up the site to help house the millions of refugees currently fleeing the conflict on their doorstep.

You do know it’s not only Saudis who have died, right? Muslims from all over the world will have been there.

Where was the divine intervention to stop it happening? Surely any merciful God would prevent this happening at his house. Again.

Most gods seem to be onto winners. They get credit when things go well but attract none of the blame when things go wrong.

True, you’d hope God would be too busy smiting dickheads on the internet

Does seem to be one every few few years, but how could you manage that volume of people – close to impossible

but how could you manage that volume of people – close to impossible

The Hajj does appear to be a huge earner for the Saudis, so I’d imagine health and safety isn’t much of a priority.

The Hajj does appear to be a huge earner for the Saudis

~1% of gdp.

To put that into context in 2009 the USA spent 3.4% of it’s GDP on Christmas shopping (not air fares, or any other stuff, just retail).

I think there’s a religious quote about throwing the first stone?

Imagine the state of the portaloos.

But jokes aside, terrible way to die. Rip.

The Saudis have spent a lot of money trying to make or safer, building these bridges to divide up the crowd plus they have a transport system which deliberately regulates the flow of people so not so many (relatively) can arrive at once. This tragedy seems to have taken place 5km away on the approach to the site

True, you’d hope God would be too busy smiting dickheads on the internet

lol!

If many people step on a frail old person I am sure that person will die pretty easily.

loddrik – Member
Where was the divine intervention to stop it happening? Surely any merciful God would prevent this happening at his house. Again.

If we go by the logic of all god’s work then s/he (god) want them to die by stampede.

I doubt s/he is that merciful if s/he can “create” then s/he can destroy at will according to his/her pleasure is it not?

And there we have it. Someone from the Saudi government just been on the radio proclaiming the deaths as ‘gods will’…..!

3.2 million people in 2.1 million sq metres according to the bloke on the radio who was touted as an expert. There wasn’t a lot of room per person.

“Not God’s Will, it’s mans incompetence” An interview from R4. I can’t say I agree with the comparison with the London Underground as the concentration of people is very different. It does refrence a comment from a Saudi official stating the crush was due to African pilgrims 😯

R4

i was saddened to hear this yesterday as we celebrated Eid-al-Adha. my brother is currently there performing his Hajj pilgrimage along with some family friends. thankfully they were nowhere near the tragedy when it happened.

the stoning of the devil at Mina is a symbolic reenactment of Abraham’s hajj, where he stone three pillars representing the temptation to disobey God and preserve Ishmael.All three jamar?t (pillars) represent the devil: the first and largest represents his temptation of Abraham against sacrificing Ishmael (Ism???l); the second represents the temptation of Abraham’s wife Hagar (H?jar) to induce her to stop him; the third represents his temptation of Ishmael to avoid being sacrificed. He was rebuked each time, and the throwing of the stones symbolizes those rebukes.

Mohammed Jafari, an adviser to Haj and Umrah Travel, the first hajj tour operator in the UK, claimed the alleged road closures were a contributory factor to the crush.

Speaking on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme, he said: “The Saudis say after every disaster ‘it is God’s will’. It is not God’s will – it is man’s incompetence. Talking to pilgrims on the ground yesterday, the main reason for this accident was that the king, in his palace in Mina, was receiving dignitaries and for this reason they closed two entrances to where the stoning happened … these were the two roads where people were not able to proceed.

“You have a stream of people going in and if you stop that stream, and the population builds up, eventually there is going to be an accident.

“It is the fault of the Saudi government because any time a prince comes along, they close the roads, they don’t think about the disaster waiting to happen.”

the Saudi government has invested heavily on improving the infrastructure to cope with the large volumes of pilgrims, but it was completely wrong to state that the deaths were “gods will”…it was more likely the result of the closure of 2 of the roads leading to the site due to the royal presence. accusing african pilgrims of being the cause is just abhorrent.