What do speeding folk do with the extra 10-20 mins though? Seriously.

If that were true then everyone exceeding the limit by 1mph would be prosecuted.

No.

If they did that for a week, the courts would be doing nothing but process appeals for years. It’s not practical either in terms of sheer volume or in terms of people accepting the fixed penalties.

It’s also a really stupid idea from a safety perspective. How much time would you have to spend looking at your dash instead of the road to ensure your speed hadn’t fluctuated by 1mph since you last looked?

What do speeding folk do with the extra 10-20 mins though? Seriously.

Talk shit on the Internet. Duh.

WillC9999 – Member

What do speeding folk do with the extra 10-20 mins though? Seriously.

I save toddlers from burning buildings.

This is the same stretch of road talked about months ago.. where a certain forum heid reckoned it was safe on the long straight to hit 100mph. Pity he wasn’t in front of you at the time to distract the camera man! Well I hope you get off with it.

Makes you think about clipping a video camera on a bar behind the headrests to film the speedo and every manoeuvre we make. You get done for what you have described but you fill out the form when it arrives through the door to say you’ll take it to court. You turn up with a lap top and the video footage to show how you were driving for the journey and see how it goes from there.

To be honest,if I was in this position and I had filmed the drive within the speed limits,I’d go to jail before accepting any fine. Just to show them up. I would never pay that fine.

Another thing, I’m with Philcons on the tailgating. I’m really getting sick of it. Every day in 30 and 40 zones I seem to cause problems with folk reeling me in and holding them up.

martinxyz – Member

To be honest,if I was in this position and I had filmed the drive within the speed limits,I’d go to jail before accepting any fine. Just to show them up. I would never pay that fine.

Yeah! That would show them.

Somehow?

You turn up with a lap top and the video footage to show how you were driving for the journey and see how it goes from there.

Where it would go is you’ll just have proved yourself guilty, thus saving yourself all that fiddly hassle of having to defend yourself. Points and probably increased fine for not accepting the fixed penalty. Next case please, Clerk.

I’d go to jail before accepting any fine.

I sincerely hope that you’re just blowing smoke on the Internet and aren’t actually that daft. I have to share a road with you.

I took my advanced driving test years ago. In the test you get the pleasure of having a traffic copper sitting in the passenger seat throughout.

When I went for an overtake he encouraged me to increase my speed to above the legal limit in order to get past the vehicle as quickly as possible so to minimise the risk of overtaking. ie, safer to speed than sit there overtaking.

Once I’d overtaken he encouraged me to slow down again back to the speed limit the only way a traffic copper can.

The problem with cameras is that they can’t offer this judgement I guess.

The problem with cameras is that they can’t offer this judgement I guess.

Camera vans have a man in them. Traditional fixed cameras are unlikely to be set up to work if you are on the wrong side of the road.

When I went for an overtake he encouraged me to increase my speed to above the legal limit in order to get past the vehicle as quickly as possible so to minimise the risk of overtaking. ie, safer to speed than sit there overtaking

This was kind of always my view, even though as I understand it has no basis in law.

Overtaking is often complicated by the strange British custom of slow drivers forming up in convoys on single carraigeway roads. Sometimes I wonder if they are in a club.

Driver 1 Plodding a long a 44mph
Driver 2 was set for an afternoon at a brisk 51mph and catches Driver 1, Driver 2 feels that Driver 1 is probably trying his best and it would be a bit rude to interrupt his clearly earnest attempts to make progess on a decent road in good conditions.
Driver 3 is really just glad to have something take his mind of the three screaming kids behind him so merrily joins the convoy.
etc
etc

Or Driver 2 is in a small engined car where it’s suicidal to overtake anything, Driver 3 is in a car with a marginally more powerful engine, which is ok to overtake 1 car, but not 2. etc. etc. 🙂

driver 4 is quite happy to chill out at whatever speed as he’s not in a rush having allowed enough time for his journey.

driver 5 is an angry man screaming, gesticulating and swearing at everyone in front of him, swerving about the lane trying to look into the oncoming lane for opportunities to pass, too close to driver 4 to see far enough ahead because he’s a victim of his own impatience. he then takes a risk and tried to overtake 4, 3, 2 and 1, as he goes past 4 and 3 they see his wife exploding in a fit of rage at him, he’s screaming back at her knowing his whole day is ruined and looks up to realise there’s a lorry coming right at him and he needs to cut back in to the people he’s trying to overtake, considering his speed at this point relative to their speed he needs to jam on his brakes causing his wife to scream in fear as he narrowly misses the lorry and nearly causes a huge crash by cutting in the much smaller gap left between drivers 2 and 3 due to their speed. driver 3 sits behind him shaking his head in disapproval, this makes driver 5 even more angry ….. and so on and so on..

why on earth didnt driver 5 just chill out and accept his journey might take 15 minutes longer? his heart is racing, blood pressure through the roof, fuel tank considerably lower, wallet emptier, wife angrier, kids crying louder, day ruined.

If they did that for a week, the courts would be doing nothing but process appeals for years. It’s not practical either in terms of sheer volume or in terms of people accepting the fixed penalties.

It’s also a really stupid idea from a safety perspective. How much time would you have to spend looking at your dash instead of the road to ensure your speed hadn’t fluctuated by 1mph since you last looked?

Nonsense. If there were no tolerance then everyone would drive below the limit, thus allowing themselves a margin of error. People driving slower = less severe accidents = improved safety. Sounds like a winner.

The A82 is single carrage way all the way from Ballock to Inverness.

So if you were setting out to head to say Spean Bridge thats over 90 miles of single carraigeway. Thats 90 minutes of driving at 60mph or 135 minutes driving stuck behind someone at 40mph

Except nobody averages 60mph on that road. What actually happens is that the speed merchants will burn past you so they can have the pleasure of sitting one car further up the queue behind the next caravan or lorry.

IanMunro – Member
Or Driver 2 is in a small engined car where it’s suicidal to overtake anything, Driver 3 is in a car with a marginally more powerful engine, which is ok to overtake 1 car, but not 2. etc. etc.
POSTED 28 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

So you work your way up the queue.

Or is that terribly unbritish too?

driver 4 is quite happy to chill out at whatever speed as he’s not in a rush having allowed enough time for his journey.

driver 5 is an angry man screaming, gesticulating and swearing at everyone in front of him, swerving about the lane trying to look into the oncoming lane for opportunities to pass, too close to driver 4 to see far enough ahead because he’s a victim of his own impatience. he then takes a risk and tried to overtake 4, 3, 2 and 1, as he goes past 4 and 3 they see his wife exploding in a fit of rage at him, he’s screaming back at her knowing his whole day is ruined and looks up to realise there’s a lorry coming right at him and he needs to cut back in to the people he’s trying to overtake, considering his speed at this point relative to their speed he needs to jam on his brakes causing his wife to scream in fear as he narrowly misses the lorry and nearly causes a huge crash by cutting in the much smaller gap left between drivers 2 and 3 due to their speed. driver 3 sits behind him shaking his head in disapproval, this makes driver 5 even more angry ….. and so on and so on..

why on earth didnt driver 5 just chill out and accept his journey might take 15 minutes longer? his heart is racing, blood pressure through the roof, fuel tank considerably lower, wallet emptier, wife angrier, kids crying louder, day ruined.

I believe there are signs on the A9 highlighting that impatience causes accidents, and that slower vehicles should pull over to allow faster ones to progress. That way, driver 1 pulls out of the way, and drivers 2, 3, 4 & 5 continue on their merry way at a speed more appropriate. Driver 4 gets there earlier than expected and enjoys a nice cup of tea and a cake whilst he waits for his meeting to start 🙂

driver 5 is an angry man screaming

Don’t overtake much, I presume?

If there were no tolerance then everyone would drive below the limit

Sure. That’s exactly what would happen.

Quality thread for bringing out the usual responses.

Philconsequence, what about Drivers 1,2,3 and 4 proceed at their own pace (well below the NSL, but that’s their choice), BUT leave a reasonable gap between each other so that Driver 5 can safely overtake one or two at a time when conditions allow. Doesn’t happen, for the same reason people don’t merge properly at lane closures. Many people on the British roads are small minded and have no appreciation of the world around them.

i dont know the a9, i’m just describing what i see nearly every time i drive down to visit family in dorset, sections of the a31 and a35 are big caravan tailback hotspots and it always makes me chuckle a little watching driver 5 behind me swerving all over the place and getting screamed at the the kids and his wimminz, if he dropped back a bit and got off my bumper he’d see what was ahead of me and why i’m not worrying about overtaking myself.

it is always refreshing when a slow driver pulls over to let other’s pass, i always give em a thank you wave 🙂

EDIT – yeah i do overtake other vehicles, luckily though i live in an area where its rare you’d have to or you’d make any progress by doing so. but yes, i have indeed overtaken vehicles on single carriage ways, i know how to safely and well i’m not here to defend myself because of a description of something i see happened quite a bit on big long single carriage way a-roads.

EDIT 2 – brycey, i personally leave a big enough gap, but getting past me is never enough, its the drivers in front of me overtakers struggle to pull back in front of. i’d rather leave a nice gap and drive smoothly without having to use my brakes everytime mr caravan ahead slams on his brakes for a corner.

Sure. That’s exactly what would happen.

It’s pretty obvious really – as experience with average speed cameras shows. For example, the M4 in S. Wales shows speeding tickets at 0.00015% of total journeys.

The lesson is pretty simple – people don’t speed if they know they won’t get away with it.

All of the above is why I drive a quick car. Have most of our weekends away and holidays in the uk and when you get the car towing the caravan behind the old dear in the micra doing 39 on a nsl road it’s a blessing to be able to go down a cog and go past safely and quickly. And yes, just to wind up the “You must never overtake crew” I’ve been known to do 5 or 6 in a line who are stuck behind a tractor on the run out to the Yorkshire coast.

Ex-bloody-xactly what Brycey said.

The way it works in other countries is that you can overtake 1-2 cars in one go, if the others don’t want to overtake the dawdler in front they don’t mind you overtaking them. Not everyone of course, and generally driving in UK is far less stressful and safer than many places in Europe, but the sheer bloody minded stupidity of some drivers is unbelievable.

Overtaking is not a crime if done properly, it’s not an affront to your masculinity or a challenge to a duel. That being said raging is not an excuse for breaking the law, and leaving extra time is always a good idea.

A little goodwill goes a long way, I still remember a couple of years ago I was driving a rented Galaxy around Scotland when an old 80’s Porsche came up from behind. I made an effort to get out of his way and as a result we were both happy!

jam bo – Member

So you work your way up the queue.

Well that’s it, though- the tailgater culture of NSL roads means that it’s often not possible to work forwards one car at a time- you’ve got a car, a 6 inch gap, another car, a 6 inch gap, and a van…

When I’m not in a mood to overtake/make progress, I drop back from the car in front so that if someone else does want to overtake, they can. But most people don’t do that it seems.

When I’m not in a mood to overtake/make progress, I drop back from the car in front so that if someone else does want to overtake, they can. But most people don’t do that it seems.

I tend to leave a bigger gap than necessary because it seems to push my mpg up by quite a bit on longer journeys since I don’t need to brake/accelerate as much when the traffic in front slows and speeds up.

That said, it can be quite annoying when someone overtakes, gets in front of me and then jams on the brakes 🙂

Now if you were on a bike, you’d be able to overtake at will and reduce your chances of getting a ticket… A lot of those vans take front on piccies and these don’t work so well on a boik Poddy will be along soon to help out

To be honest I’ve been reading this from the beginning and keeping quiet. 🙂

But yeah. No front plate can be very very handy sometimes 😈

You’ll find that those same vans have a camera in the front and will get you’re plate on the way past. That’s one from experience btw!!

You’ll find that those same vans have a camera in the front and will get you’re plate on the way past.

Either that, or the guy notes your speed as you head towards him, then makes a note of your plate once you’ve gone past

It’s pretty obvious really – as experience with average speed cameras shows. For example, the M4 in S. Wales shows speeding tickets at 0.00015% of total journeys.

Sure. But on roads which don’t have SPECS, which is “all of them” bar a tiny statistical margin, that just wouldn’t happen.

That said, it can be quite annoying when someone overtakes, gets in front of me and then jams on the brakes

That’s a whole other rant. Drivers who want to drive slower than you, in front of you. Beggers belief.

Sure. But on roads which don’t have SPECS, which is “all of them” bar a tiny statistical margin, that just wouldn’t happen.

In other words, people speed on roads where the speed limit isn’t enforced, and don’t speed where it is enforced. Which is what I said.

As an ex-traffic cop who spent years patrolling the A82….

The road is a a public place shared by experienced, professional bus and truck drivers, bikers, LEJOG and other cyclists, private motorists of varying ability who live, work or pursue outdoor recreation in the area, tourists who park in laybys and walk across the road to take photos, foreign tourists who drive on dual carriageway from Dover or an airport rental place all the way to their 1st section of UK single carriageway at Balloch (head-on tastic mates), suicidal sheep, deer, foxes, pheasants, cows and, would you believe, beavers.

Some road users believe they ‘know’ the road well, others have never been there before. Add in drunks (on foot or in/on vehicles), breakdowns (You’re changing a wheel where?), extreme weather (low sun, icy patches, sudden crosswinds, flooding), nutters intent on topping themselves, farm vehicles, mud, narrow bridges, tight bends and the ever present roadworks and queuing traffic and you begin to realise there are quite a few things to occupy the progressive driver.

The thing is, whether certain road users feel they should be subject to the laws of the land or not, they are all subject to the laws of physics. Every crash I have attended on the A82 involved speed plus at least one other factor. Some ‘other’ factors can be policed or designed out, others can’t. Overtakes are often the riskiest of these other factors, requiring a true appreciation of all attendant dangers if they are to be executed safely. The daft thing is, overtaking gives an impression of progress but this only lasts until the next vehicle is caught, particularly when the road is busy. Moving up from number 998 to 996 in the Sunday queue from Fort William to Balloch is truly pointless but many still take the risk.

Observing the speed limit on apparently ‘safe’ open sections may increase journey time but gives everyone more time to react to the unexpected, reducing both the likelihood of a crash or the severity of impact and associated consequences should one occur.

The OP wasn’t moaning about being caught by the camera van, he’s a grown man who made a decision and posted to enquire if he may expect a 3 point smack on the wrist as a result. Fair play to him for risking a flaming. What’s interesting is the subsequent debate, on a cycling forum, revealing some scary attitudes to speed limits and their enforcement. If you don’t like the rules on public roads, go play somewhere else.

(Dons flameproof suit)

You’ll find that those same vans have a camera in the front and will get you’re plate on the way past. That’s one from experience btw!!

OH yeah. Either that or the operative just turns round and looks at it…..

TBH I can’t remember ever going past a camera van over the limit on a bike. Don’t think I’ve ever done it. We used to get one regularly in Farnborough, just past a slight bend as you came into town in a 30 limit. Usually on Saturday mornings as I came back from work. I use to pootle along from the lights, watch everybody pass me, and then slam on the anchors 30 yards up the road. Quite amusing, that….

I don’t mind cameras TBH. They paint them bright colours, put up warning signs, publish lists on the Internet, and you can even get warnings off your sat nav. These days you really do have to be some sort of numbskull to get caught!

Shooting from the hip here, the speeding (and careless/dangerous) element is managed by the Police in the form of camera vans, patrols, etc. What is done (generally, not specifically by traffic cops) about the clueless drivers with no awareness of what’s going around them; not all of them non-local tourists either?

To me that’s the problem. I don’t think the clown in the right hand lane of an empty M74 going at 60, or a foot behind the car in front on the A82 at 40 is any the wiser, and I don’t see that sort of behaviour being tackled*, despite the accidents it must cause.

*I once saw a Police RR flash up “use correct lane” on their rear display about ten years ago on the M6.

Thanks for posting in here, downshep. It’s good to get some perspective from the someone experienced on the other side of the fence.

EDIT: you still up for doing Ben Donich soon? I’ll let you drive. I might even carry your bike up if, well, you know…. 😉 🙂

I pretty much agree with everything you said until we go to here:

The daft thing is, overtaking gives an impression of progress but this only lasts until the next vehicle is caught,

You can overtake (safely) the next slow car too

Moving up from number 998 to 996 in the Sunday queue from Fort William to Balloch is truly pointless but many still take the risk.

When its this busy you obviously have a point, but it rarely is. I can generally get as far as Crianlarich and head down the A85 before it gets too busy avoiding the stramash along Loch Lomond

Generally the A82 is good road and easy to travel on. I actually look forward to any journeys on it. The only exception being when travelling up to see the World Cup, it can be a bit fraught at times

I agree with everything downshep said, except

The OP wasn’t moaning about being caught by the camera van

@johnners – why did you feel the need to type that?

I agree with everything downshep said, except

The OP wasn’t moaning about being caught by the camera van

Johnners, I wasn’t moaning about potentially being caught speeding.

I was querying whether or not it actually reduces accidents by placing the camera in one of the safer areas of the road to overtake. And also whether is it safe to overtake a vehicle at a slower pace (i.e. sticking under the speed limit while making the maneouvre)

I thought I made that quite clear in every post I have made in this thread.

In other words, people speed on roads where the speed limit isn’t enforced, and don’t speed where it is enforced. Which is what I said.

No, what you said was “If there were no tolerance then everyone would drive below the limit”, which isn’t the same thing at all.

Sure, if everywhere had SPECS then a zero tolerance policy would probably work in culling speeding. It’d be retarded for the reasons I mentioned in the first place, but it’d probably work.

However, back here in the world we’re actually living in, prosecuting people for going 1mph over the limit would make precisely no difference whatsoever to anyone’s driving habits. Habitual speeders would still habitually speed, the law-abiding would still law-abide. The only difference is, people would have to spend more time gazing at their dashboard, which isn’t really where your attention should be focused whilst you’re propelling a large chunk of metal at speed.

I can’t remember ever going past a camera van over the limit on a bike.

I remember driving through (I think) Kirkby Lonsdale a few years back. A few sports bikes flew past me at something approaching the speed of sound, and past a liveried ‘safety camera’ van which they totally ignored.

A couple of miles further on, I encountered them again, looking all forelorn at the side of the road, where the coppers’ mates in another van were quietly handing them all tickets.

What is done (generally, not specifically by traffic cops) about the clueless drivers with no awareness of what’s going around them

I’ve seen the matrices occasionally set on the M6 with helpful advice like ‘keep left when not overtaking’. I’d quite like to see that linked to NPR systems; “keep left when not overtaking, AB58 CDE”

What is done (generally, not specifically by traffic cops) about the clueless drivers with no awareness of what’s going around them; not all of them non-local tourists either?

Snipers on motorway bridges?

A couple of miles further on, I encountered them again, looking all forelorn at the side of the road, where the coppers’ mates in another van were quietly handing them all tickets.

Yeah. Shit happens. I’ve been caught 3 times on a bike, once in a van, once in a car. 3 were by maked cop cars or bikes (2 of which were so sneaky its untrue, they weren’t even on the same road as me!) and the other 2 by unmaked vans 12-13 years ago.

I’ve not even been close to being caught for, Ohh, 6 or 7 years now. And that’s despite putting in a serious amount of miles for 4 out of those 6 years. I’ve had a clean license for a few years now.
It’s a skill you can learn. 🙂