Whilst enjoying a nice drive back from Glen Coe yesterday on the A82, I ended up behind some slow moving traffic at Rannoch Moor.

It’s single carrigeway and windy in places, the car up front was doing 40mph on the straights and slowing down to 20 (seriously) for the corners (it’s quite safe to sit between 50-60mph for this whole section). Weather was good and much of the road is brand new.

I sat patiently because there isn’t really anywhere to safely overtake on that stretch and I knew that they was a 2 mile straight section coming up which has perfect visibility.

When we reached the straight section, there were no cars coming in the other direction, I held back for a moment or two to allow the drivers in front to overtake, no one did, so I indicated and overtook the 3 cars in front of me (which had sped up slightly due to the road opening up quite a bit), pulled back in and then dropped my speed….

…then spotted a mobile speed camera van on the right side of the road 🙁

That would certainly explain why the other two cars didn’t overtake.

It seems a bit poor form to plant a speed camera on the one section of a very long road which is actually safe to overtake, seems that it will just cause drivers to make a more risky manouevre on a different section instead.

Also, NSCP actually listed that their speed camera in the Lochaber area would be at a totally different location.

I know speeding is a strict liability offence, so you can’t exceed for any reason, but how can it be safe to overtake slower traffic at a slow speed, spending longer on the wrong side of the road?

Not looking for sympathy, I’ll suck it up if I was speeding, but just seems a bit conter-productive to the prevention of accidents.

if you have to break the speed limit to overtake then it’s not safe in the eyes of the law to overtake surely?

Thats almost exactly how they got me 🙁 It does feel a bit unsporting.

The cameras are there for your safety. Who knows what dangers may lay in wait…

new driver in poor judgement shocker…

peterfile

Absolutely no promises here, but the guy who operates that camera van says that when he sees cars overtaking he doesn’t ping them when they’re doing so. If they pull back in and don’t return to the speed limit straight away, he considers them fair game, but if they do, he leaves them.

That’s what he told me, so fingers crossed!

if you have to break the speed limit to overtake then it’s not safe in the eyes of the law to overtake surely?

Obviously the law considers any excess of speed to be “unsafe”, but surely this is subjective? This section of the road is around 30 miles long and has very, very few safe places to overtake. Build ups in traffic due to slower moving vehicles are common, leading to some drivers making unsafe overtaking moves. The position of that van seemed to penalise those drivers overtaking on the only safe area to do so.

new driver in poor judgement shocker…

OK, so using the judgment of an experienced driver, where would be a safe place to overtake on the section of the A82 which you obviously know well enough to be able to comment on my judgment?

You broke the law. Safely or not. So it’s down to the whim of the copper behind the camera as to whether you’ll be getting a ticket or not. And that will depend on your driving, the car you were in, what you look like, whether the copper got laid last night, what he had for tea, the temperature that day and anything else that dictates one’s judgement.

Not judging you myself at all, sounds likely I would’ve done the same thing in your situation. But that’s the way it is. Keep an eye on your doormat and you’ll find out soon enough.

EDIT: and if you are a new driver, get used to driving like a granny for the next two years while the ‘six point and out rule’ applies.

OK, so using the judgment of an experienced driver, where would be a safe place to overtake on the section of the A82 which you obviously know well enough to be able to comment on my judgment?

That’s dependant on the other traffic… if the other traffic drives at the speed limit there is legally nowhere. If the other traffic sits at 30mph the whole time there are rather more!

You broke the law. Safely or not.

Absolutely, like I said, if I get a ticket I’ll suck it up (and drive like a granny for a while!)

Just mulling over whether the position of the van actually prevents accidents or just encourages drivers to overtake in less safe areas.

Like shooting fish in a barrel

Think of it as yet another tax. Also your insurance may go up, so there will be more tax on that. Meanwhile the really nasty places don’t get cameras because of visibility rules.

Oh, and a satnav will ping you when you’re near a camera.

Double points for Merc drivers in Scotchland I hear…. 😀

If the car you overtook was doing 40 mph, did you really need to exceed 60 to pass him safely? Assuming the camera van / PF is using the normal rules of thumb for deciding on prosecutions you’d need to be doing 66+ to get a ticket.

If you missed a speed camera van on the other side of the road I’m not convinced you really assessed the overtake properly.

Whilst I appreciate the point you are trying to make, you have unpicked your own argument with the following
statement “speeding is a strict liability offence”. If you really believe that you had a reasonable excuse for speeding you can go to court and try to justify it. As you probably know, you will never justify it to STW.

I’d have probably done the same. And sucked it up if it resulted in a ticket. Can’t imagine you would need to go much more than 65 to take them though, and you’d hope that there would be an element of discretion applied.

Coppers can’t win though. They need a section of straight road to set up on, and for every driver doing a legitimate overtake, there’ll be a couple of loon bikers doing a ton who fully deserve the points. So setting up there is fine in my view.

The answer to that will be that if it’s safe to perform a legal overtake you won’t get done, and if it’s not, you shouldn’t do so. It could also be argued, if one wished too, that by parking on a long straight with good visibility, a driver should see the van a long way off.

Double points for Merc drivers in Scotchland I hear….

It’s an estate though, so i’m hoping they were thinking more along the lines of Ned Flanders rather than Nigel Mansel 🙂

If you missed a speed camera van on the other side of the road I’m not convinced you really assessed the overtake properly.

I did see the van, but it’s the A82, there’s a van/camper/car parked in every available spot! I’ve never spotted a police van in that location, it’s always at White Corries.

Just to be clear, I’m not trying to argue that I don’t deserve a ticket if I was speeding, more questioning whether the aim of the camera is properly served – i.e. a reduction in accidents.

I must admit that section of the road traffic act bugs the nipples off me as well but you also have to take into account the increased braking distance and reduced reaction time as your speed increases, an “average” of combined reaction/braking distance from 50mph is approx 220 ft, raise your speed to 70mph and this rises to 380ft, a rather significant increase that is on your conscience if, god forbid anything goes wrong – obviously the above is dependant on your reaction time/road conditions/braking capability of your car etc.

It may possibly be safer to overtake at speed that minimises your encroachment on the other carriageway whilst breaking the speed limit dependant on how fast your car accelerates but on a road you are unfamiliar with you also have to take into account factors such as hidden junctions where a car may pull onto the road without fully checking for closing traffic from the left at speed or other such perils outwith your control so it pays to exercise caution but i freely admit……when the road is clear and it is a road i am confidant driving on, if i want to pass anything on a normal road travelling 50mph or less i do tend to drop it into 3rd and floor it. takes a couple of seconds and i’m back on my side of the road in my mk2 golf but just a blink of an eye in my mates rs4 and it can stop from 120mph to zero in the time it takes my car to stop from 60mph to zero so it’s relevant to the car what you feel comfortable doing.

However if it is a road i am unsure of i’m quite happy to pootle along at whatever speed till it is perfectly safe to overtake at leisure.

peterfile – Member
I’m not trying to argue that I don’t deserve a ticket if I was speeding, more questioning whether the aim of the camera is properly served – i.e. a reduction in accidents.

I thought the aim of the camera was to catch people breaking the speed limit?

How do you overtake without going over the speed loimit on a motorway or dual carrigeway.

Easy stay in the outside lane doing 70 mph.

you also have to take into account factors such as hidden junctions where a car may pull onto the road without fully checking for closing traffic from the left at speed

That’s a biggie, imo. When people look for cars before doing any manoeuvre, they don’t tend to also check the wrong side of the road for cars doing 50% over the limit… Having said that I do floor it when overtaking, but the power of my cars is such that I rarely pass 80 anyway.

Absolutely no promises here, but the guy who operates that camera van says that when he sees cars overtaking he doesn’t ping them when they’re doing so. If they pull back in and don’t return to the speed limit straight away, he considers them fair game, but if they do, he leaves them.

What he said

Its been my experience too. If you have briefly exceeded the limit and returned to the 60mph you might be okay.

How fast do you think you were going?

Bear in mind and indicated 70mph is probably only 65mph and you are unlikely to get done for less than 66mph

for every driver doing a legitimate overtake, there’ll be a couple of loon bikers doing a ton who fully deserve the points.

That’s right, because only motorcyclists deserve to be penalised for speeding, car drivers should be exempt.

I hate to break this to you, but if you’re speeding in a car, you’re no more superior or privileged than anyone else on the road, even if it is a “legitimate” overtake.

For what it’s worth, I’d probably have done the same thing in the OP’s position, though I’d like to think I’d have seen the camera and thought better of it. Either way though, I wouldn’t then be claiming the moral highground and bleating on about ‘proper’ speeders, ie, any demographic that wasn’t me.

I’m not trying to argue that I don’t deserve a ticket if I was speeding, more questioning whether the aim of the camera is properly served – i.e. a reduction in accidents.

Million dollar question, isn’t it. They need a straight line to operate the camera, so they have to set up on the safest part of an otherwise (presumably) dangerous stretch of road.

I think he said ‘biker’ in that sentence because they are often going much faster than motorists, due to being on very fast machines.

you’d need to be doing 66+ to get a ticket.

you are unlikely to get done for less than 66mph

68, no? Rule of thumb is 10% + 2, up here at least.

Oh, and,

I’ll suck it up if I was speeding

Don’t you know?

How fast do you think you were going?

Bear in mind and indicated 70mph is probably only 65mph and you are unlikely to get done for less than 66mph

For the purposes of this example, hypothetically speaking of course, it could have been an indicated 75mph.

Don’t you know?

Not too keen to admitting to any offence on here. Just saying that I was performing an manouevre which required my full attention on the road, not my dashboard, so just concerned I could have drifted over slightly 🙂

Perhaps didn’t express myself clearly. Trying to draw a distinction between seriously fast riders/drivers who are averaging well above the SL and those who perhaps exceed it briefly during an overtake but are happy to cruise at 60. So not just bikers, just a turn of phrase. Apologies.

(Although I do use the A65 frequently, so perhaps it’s subconscious anti-biker bias).

So it’s down to the whim of the copper behind the camera as to whether you’ll be getting a ticket or not. And that will depend on your driving, the car you were in, what you look like, whether the copper got laid last night, what he had for tea, the temperature that day and anything else that dictates one’s judgement.

Are those kinds of camera vans not fully automated and staffed by civies rather than plods?

Edit: Peterfile – get yourself a caravan for your weekend excursions and all your speeding worries will be gone 😀

Edit: Peterfile – get yourself a caravan for your weekend excursions and all your speeding worries will be gone

I’ve actually got something on my car which allows me to limit the speed to a specified figure. Truthfully, I rarely exceed the speed limit, too worried about clocking up 6 points in my first two years, but if I have drifted over it will be when overtaking…therefore not too sure if limiting my cars speed is particularly safe in those circumstances.

more questioning whether the aim of the camera is properly served – i.e. a reduction in accidents.

I’ve never been under any impression that they’re there just to reduce accidents. It’s a good old money making scheme too. I’d be annoyed if I was in your shoes, but as someone said above, it’s just another tax.

stilltortoise – Member

more questioning whether the aim of the camera is properly served – i.e. a reduction in accidents./quote]

I’ve never been under any impression that they’re there just to reduce accidents. It’s a good old money making scheme too. I’d be annoyed if I was in your shoes, but as someone said above, it’s just another tax.

It’s really not.

A tax on those who fail to adhere to the law? Seems fair

If they wanted to make money they’d be far more arseholey about it than they are.

There are loads of places where everyone speeds where I live, and they could rake in tons of cash. They don’t, I think because they themselves think the speed limit is not necessary in those places.

I wish they would though, because if everyone stuck to the limit there it’d make traffic flow far better and merging etc would be much smoother.

It’s a tax on lawbreaking I suppose 😉 And bad obs.

Seriously though, it’s a “there but for the grace of god”- it’s a big, fast, straight road with visibility all the way to the nearest mountain, and an awful lot of dawdlers on it (ooh, look at the view).

Course, for that reason you also need to be extra careful! I remember coming down from Glencoe on the bike when the car in front suddenly stopped in the middle of the road. Asked if they were OK, could I help? Since y’know, they’d just slammed on the brakes in traffic and stopped in the middle of an A road, presumably there was a reason for that. Oh no, he says, he saw a bird and he thought it might be an eagle. So you’ve got to plan for that sort of nonsense.

Personally for me, safety is more important than legality but you can’t ignore either. I exceed the limit when I deem it reasonable to do so, but my definition of reasonable isn’t the law’s… and if/when I get caught for it, I will not whine. I especially won’t say “Oh, the van wasn’t supposed to be there”- the offence isn’t “speeding in the vicinity of a speed camera” ffs!

It’s really not.

It should be. I like to drive spiritedly, but I can’t think of many fairer ways to “tax”* people than fines for breaking the law.

*put in speech marks so we hopefully don’t go off at a tangent discussing whether speeding fines are actually taxes or not.

They aren’t, they are fines, it’s very obvious. People whingeing about it are just being children complaining about not being allowed to do whatever they want. My daughter asks for crisps for breakfast. She’d probably tell you I was being just as unfair and not seeing the whole issue etc etc etc blablabla.

To add insult to injury, in Scotlandshire, we dont even get offered speed awareness courses as alternatives for first offences – they do in England*

*terms and conditions apply

WHich is the reason that Penrith is popular with the Scotch Speeder…

There is a speed camera near Bath that was installed on a dual carriagway before the road was opened. the road has a 50mph limit rather than 60, and the camera was hidden just the other side of a bridge where the road straightens up after a long curve and junction.
The road is a bypass around a village which was a blackspot, and the camera was put there because it was within 2km of a known blackspot.
Tell me that was there to catch speeders to avoid accidents.
It was clearly a revenue generating devise, as it couldn’t have been there because of accidents on a road that wasn’t even open.