anagallis_arvensis – Member
Jambayla its just that juvenile shite that turns me off our politicians (of all parties).

You’d have hated Churchill and Disraeli, then.

Theirs were both funny and unscripted.

Theirs were both funny and unscripted.

A fair point, well made.

We seem to be missing the opportunity to be able to vote for a leader who will do great things for UK.

*puts on idealist utopian hat*

I would dare suggest that this may be the problem. Why wait for the messiah when you can change things yourself? As usual libcom has a wealth of info on the potential alternatives

*returns to nihilistic acceptance of the status quo*

‘d have hated Churchill and Disraeli, then.

I expect so, that old boys debating club bollocks just really pisses me off. Act like grown ups ffs.

Act like grown ups ffs.

Dunno, I take the piss out of my mates on a regular basis, despite being a 43yr old father of two… People complain about politicians not living in the real world, but when they act human that’s also a problem???

Probably not while discussing the fate of a country though

@grum you and I have been round this loop before about whether people are personally impacted by the issues mentioned here. I certainly am and have posted up numerous examples before. Re: my opening sentence too many politicians and too many people yourself and @aracer included generally are denying these issues exist but that won’t make them go away for the significant portion of the electorate that do care about them. Also publically denying they exist alienats those politicians who claim people are not justified in holding those views.

I don’t deny these issues exist – but it’s pretty clear from posts like yours and skydragons that for the vast majority of people getting het up about them it’s largely a problem of perception, based on an over-reliance on things they’ve read/heard about in the media or been told about by Dave down the pub.

That‘s why you can’t have a sensible debate about immigration, not because of PC gawn mad.

If you want to talk to me about problems with immigration and the health and benefits systems based on actual evidence and displaying some kind of critical thinking then go right ahead – I will genuinely listen.

If you’re just going to come out with the usual baseless tabloid cliches and anecdotes then people will rightfully ignore/dismiss you.

Oddly I agree with you both a_a an mogrim

the debates and QT are more theatre than debate
The PM [ all hues] ignores the question says something rabble rousing to their troops then uses a scripted put down to have a dig at the opposition that the troops roar their approval

They are not in any sense debates or questions

I also agree that when politicians do or say things we all do we have a go at them as we want some sort of bland lowest common denominator and they are so scared of making a mistake they dont answer questions,
They are also aware that whatever their answer it will be cut down to a soundbite.

Probably not while discussing the fate of a country though

I don’t think the odd quip or joke makes any difference, if it were all the time that’d be a different matter of course. Still, if you’d rather have a humourless robot as PM…

They are not in any sense debates or questions

Sad, isn’t it? I still remember the debate about whether or not to allow TV cameras into the Commons, and I was firmly in favour of being able to see what our MPs were up to. Now I’m starting to think it might have been a mistake!

skydragon – Member

The UK has many talented and intelligent people who are great leaders – why is UK politics a waste land of talent?

Discuss…

😯

If you want to talk to me about problems with immigration and the health and benefits systems based on actual evidence and displaying some kind of critical thinking then go right ahead – I will genuinely listen.

Have a read of this study then – link. Quick summary

In this new analysis of the economic and demographic consequences of current levels of immigration, the distinguished Cambridge economist Robert Rowthorn finds that the potential economic gains from immigration are modest compared with the strains placed on amenities such as housing, land, schools, hospitals, water supply and transport systems.
While GDP as a whole will grow with increased immigration, Rowthorn notes, GDP per capita – a much better indicator of the nation’s wealth – will be only marginally affected by the enormous population growth forecast for the coming century. He cites the Office for National Statistics’ high migration scenario, which sees growth in the UK population of 20 million over the next 50 years and 29 million over the next 75 years – entirely from migration. This is equivalent to adding a city almost the size of Birmingham to the UK population every two-and-a-half years for the next 75 years.
“Unrestrained population growth would eventually have a negative impact on the standard of living through its environmental effects such as overcrowding, congestion and loss of amenity,” Rowthorn writes.

robot as PM…

Id vote for a nice (benevolent) AI any day

Do I care? Frankly I’m finding it hard to raise a ****, let alone give one – it’s probably the most unpredictable election in generations but the options are all so unpalatable it’s still a case of “least worst”.

Whatever happens Cameron or Milliband will be PM, of that I’m certain – but it’s who they have to get into bed with to make it happen – I’m terrified of UKIP gaining power, on a practical level their policies make no sense and on a personal level they repulse me – I believe the greens are very well meaning but want too much, too soon and it’ll sink us.

But really do I have to worry about the ‘other party’ in a collision? How did we get where we are now? The Poor Old Lib Dems, they used to be the thinking mans party – their history goes back to the 1800s, they stand for civil liberties, environmentalism, Human rights and electoral reform which could have meant the end of two-party politics in the UK – they saw their biggest surge in their history prior to the last election and Nick Clegg easily ‘won’ the TV debates – it actually looked for a while like they’d overtake Labour!

And what happened? Their policies were swept aside, or marginalised to the point they were hugely unpopular and they were made to accept the blame for everything the Tories did wrong – they’ll come out of this in a far worse position than they’ve even been in – they’ll face the next 10 years at least no where. Why would UKIP, the SDP or the Greens want that? Maybe we’ll see a Tory / Labour government and nothing will get done for 5 years – maybe 5 years so little or no government will be a good thing!

let’s keep it clean and respectful guys and have an adult dialogue…everyone is entitled to their own views, even if you don’t agree with them, eh?

Regarding

it’s pretty clear from posts like yours and skydragons that for the vast majority of people getting het up about them it’s largely a problem of perception, based on an over-reliance on things they’ve read/heard about in the media or been told about by Dave down the pub.

and

skydragon » The reason i make these comments is because they all do affect my daily life.
Really? Give us an example for each point please…

Crime – My local area is blighted by crime . Examples – a) our garages have been broken into several times. My next door neighbour who is disabled had his bike stolen, then had the insurance replacement stolen. b) The village has a set of stone steps in the centre of it, they’ve been there for over 100 years, last year some f&ckwits decided to steal the bottom set of steps. c) Fly tipping is rife, truck loads of building waste getting dumped on the edge of the village d) the Co-op store in the village has been robbed three times in the last year – in each instance the police have done little or nothing, because they are undermanned and underesourced. The idiots carrying out the crimes will continue as they no nothing will get done about it and even if it goes to court they will most likely get away with it. The system is failing. the Government and local authorities need to sort things out.

Immigration – My local area is multicultural, my next door neighbour is of asian origin. I welcome a diverse society, but hold the view that if you relocate to another country you should integrate. The system they promote in Australia seems to be the most sensible – move here by all means, but become an Australian in all respects, or don’t bother coming here. I find it offensive when people in my local community who have been here years, can’t be bothered to even learn to speak English.

Health – You only have to visit my local GP’s waiting room to see that much of his/her burden and budget is caused by people who haven’t taken the responsibility to look after their own health. Either by over-eating, smoking or over-drinking. On a related theme, I used to notice a neighbour standing outside her back door smoking. A year later she’s heavily pregnant and still doing the same, turns out that her landlord won’t allow smoking in the house… so she’s bothered about not upsetting her landlord, but not about affecting her own health or the health of her unborn child – Grade A f&ckwit.

Benefits – I see people in the local community who are capable of working and paying their way, sponging off the system. I don’t see why my tax payments should go to fund this, when they could be better used for Education, Supporting disadvantaged and vulnerable people, helping blind and disabled, providing care for old, etc, etc.

Back to the original question -The UK has many talented and intelligent people who are great leaders – why is UK politics a waste land of talent?

Has politics ever really been vastly different to what we have today, or has modern communication helped us begin to realize the scam we’re being fed?

Though democracy allows for some policy changes, the short elected terms of governments mean a long term approach is not in the hands of the people~ for example, look at The Home Office, The Foreign Office, the Intelligence Services or the MOD~ all have staff who remain in place regardless of who is voted into power and who’s strategies are in the interests of the true head of state, the Queen (and the bankers who have been affiliated with nobility for centuries) rather than the people who fund them.

It’s no coincidence the Queen rules many of the world’s wealthiest tax havens and retains ultimate authority over 33 territories around the world, including Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

I don’t think I was – I thought I made that clear by acknowledging them as issues in my post. I was simply pointing out that relatively speaking they’re trivial issues and the proposed solutions to them are unlikely to improve things overall.

We used to get some great debates and speeches (sometimes funny) in Parliament, they all seem far too scared these days to say anything that isn’t on a list somewhere and been previously agreed by a PR committee

A master at work …
http://news.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/hi/historic_moments/newsid_8195000/8195545.stm

Apologies if I’ve come across as anything else.

Crime – you make a fair point about the issue – plenty of threads on here complaining about bike theft with people wanting to string up the thieves as well. However punishing petty crime harshly isn’t the solution – it might make you feel better in a vengeful way, but it really won’t solve anything. Your latest comments are far more sensible, but don’t really support your original harsh punishment for petty crime policy.

Immigration – we were asking for examples of how they directly affected you as you claimed. How exactly does somebody not speaking English directly affect you? What’s more, how does that result in them not adding value – and to be honest, if they are adding value, why is it a big issue if they don’t speak English?

Health – wow, you must be pretty psychic to be able to tell why everybody is at the GP’s. Maybe it’s just that I’m insulated from this as I don’t see it in my GP, but then I’ve been to a few different GPs, some in quite deprived areas and never really seen what you suggest. I’m still not sure why it has a direct affect on you anyway.

Benefits – more psychic powers. More failure to explain the direct impact on you.

I agree with grum 😯 – it would be useful to debate these issues, as they are real issues (or at least perceived to be) but I’m not sure an intelligent debate can be had starting from your assertions. Want to try arguing them differently?

I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit, it’s the only way to be sure.*

* by voting Green 😀

Why worry, when you go on to point out:

The Poor Old Lib Dems, they used to be the thinking mans party
…
Their policies were swept aside, or marginalised to the point they were hugely unpopular and they were made to accept the blame for everything the Tories did wrong – they’ll come out of this in a far worse position than they’ve even been in – they’ll face the next 10 years at least no where. Why would UKIP, the SDP or the Greens want that?

Because they’ll grasp the chance to get their hands on some power in the same way the LDs did. In the same way the LDs did, the only policies they’ll get passed are sensible ones their partners agree with (assuming UKIP has any sensible policies?) The example of the LDs shows us that UKIP as a junior partner in coalition won’t be as scary as you might think as they’re nowhere near as clever as the LDs and Dave will marginalise them. Not too worried about the Greens – no way their stupid policies will get anywhere in a coalition, and they have some sensible ones which might. Slightly more worried about SNP, as Alex appears to be far more clever than Ed.

Health – You only have to visit my local GP’s waiting room to see that much of his/her burden and budget is caused by people who haven’t taken the responsibility to look after their own health.

go to the doctors, see sick people… 🙄

You want an inclusive society, apart from the unemployed, the sick, immigrants. where’s that Princess Bride gif when you need it

No problems aracer.

Ref Crime, let me change my comment – I’m up for any solution that genuinely lowers crime and deters offenders, especially those who are regular/repeat offenders.

Immigration – Good question. Apart from offending me it probably has little impact, other than possibly erode England’s anglo-saxon culture. But it does offend me, so I maintain my views.

Health – Not saying everyone at my GP falls into this camp, of course they don’t. But a significant minority do. My point being people should be accountable for their own actions and health – I have a relative who was a heroin addict (now methadone) she has led a life of petty crime and has been a drain on society in every respect (police, healthcare, social, benefits). There has to be a safety net in a civilised society, but why should the community have to fund her, given her choice to lead the life she has?

Benefits – no psychic powers, just an observation of some of the lazy benefit claiming skanks living nearby. Impact on me already explained – why should i work and fund them, when they won’t work ?

You want an inclusive society, apart from the unemployed, the sick, immigrants

Please read my posts again, you are misrepresenting what I am saying.

Unemployed – fwiw I am unemployed at the moment 🙂 I am commenting on those who proactively decide not to work, but claim benefits instead.

The Sick – I am commenting on those who’s poor lifestyle choices have led, or will lead, to their sickness.

Immigrants – No, not all. Those who integrate are welcome, those who don’t/won’t are not welcome.

Voting gives you a voice to air your views, to complain, applaud, and rant as we often do. The chance and right to vote has been hard fought battle. Do not waste it. Not voting gives you UKIP.

I wonder how many will vote UKIP out of sheer frustration, as a ‘protest vote’…unless the rest of the parties get their acts together and start influencing the electorate better?

I think the protest votes will be split between greens and UKIP as many folk , and some of them will be dissatisfied, could not vote for UKIP under any circumstances.
I dont think the main parties really want to try and win these voters either with UKIP light type posturing though they dont want to lose them.

Voting gives you a voice to air your views, to complain, applaud, and rant as we often do. The chance and right to vote has been hard fought battle. Do not waste it. Not voting gives you UKIP.

But our current system only allows you to say yes. We still need a way of saying “none of you represent me or my wishes” and being counted as a vote.

At the moment I don’t think a single one of the political parties on offer are competent, representative or trustworthy enough to be in power but there is no way to say this within the voting system.

Have a read of this study then – link. Quick summary

Thanks for that mefty – genuinely interested and I welcome people bringing stuff like that into the debate.

skydragon – you have to remember that in general humans are not actually very rational beings. Things like confirmation bias play a huge part in your perception of what goes on.

I’m sorry that crime is an issue in your local area but there’s no evidence that cracking down hard on petty crimes would help. I’ve been a victim of a house burglary and it was pretty horrible.

The rest of your complaints are based on an awful lot of assumptions.

Unemployed – fwiw I am unemployed at the moment I am commenting on those who proactively decide not to work, but claim benefits instead.

I don’t know any one who has been on JSA for more than a few months, you do know how hard it is to get right?

The Sick – I am commenting on those who’s poor lifestyle choices have led, or will lead, to their sickness.

My grandad smoked when no one knew it was really shit, he’s on oxygen now, want to take it off him?

Immigrants – No, not all. Those who integrate are welcome, those who don’t/won’t are not welcome.

One of my grans friends moved out to spain, they went to a big place full of english people so they wouldn’t need to learn spanish

I get the horrible feeling that whatever or whoever gets voted in in the election we’re not in for a good next five years.

It’s a crappy situation where I think Labour couldn’t run a bath, never mind a country. Tories seem hellbent on selling off anything they possibly can including the NHS, which is bad news for me personally, there’s no way in tr world I’d vote UKIP and the Greens have one or two decent ideas but the rest appear to be crazy.

I genuinely don’t know who to vote for as I think we’re screwed whichever way it goes.

Does it really matter how the NHS is run as long as it remains free at the point of entry? Although personally that to my mind is it’s biggest flaw in todays society half the wasters there are malingerers, drunks or those too lazy to make a doctors appointment.

The fatties/benefits thing is interesting, if only for the way it gets reported – the announcements actually appear to have been about obesity, alcohol and drug misuse – fortunately for us all a recent FOI request gives figures

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/403970/FOI_2015-105_Publishing.pdf

between incapacity benefit and ESA, there are about 1800 people ‘signed off’ with obesity as their main condition, down very slightly over the last five years

whereas there are 55,000 alcoholics (up by about 20%) 33,000 druggies (down about 20%)

the press have certainly picked up on the ‘fatties’ issue but they’ve hardly discussed the others that are clearly far more of a problem.

When Scotland goes independent those figures will drop by 90% 😉

Seriously they do use up a lot of NHS resource and contribute little to society. It’s what you do about it?

Does it really matter how the NHS is run as long as it remains free at the point of entry?

Yes

It’s a crappy situation where I think Labour couldn’t run a bath, never mind a country.

So how did they manage then ? I mean how did they manage despite the worse global recession since the 1930s, made particularly difficult for the UK because of its over reliance on the financial sector, to keep unemployment levels to below what it was in two previous recessions under Tory government “stewardship” ?

Recession in the 1980s under the Tories – over 3 million unemployed.
Recession in the 1990s under the Tories – 3 million unemployed.
Recession 2008-10 under Labour – 2.5 million unemployed.

So how come if Labour “couldn’t run a bath” ?

And those aren’t just figures they are real people with real families.

I don’t support Labour and I wouldn’t urge anyone to vote for them but the suggestion that they are less capable of running the country than the Tories is absurd.

And it is precisely that sort of muddled thinking that explains the depressing state of British politics.

One of my grans friends moved out to spain, they went to a big place full of english people so they wouldn’t need to learn spanish

Are they retired by any chance? Claiming any benefits?
Don’t suppose many people come to the UK from Spain to retire.

So how did they manage then ?

By spending money (they didn’t have) like a drunken sailor in a whorehouse!

By spending money (they didn’t have) like a drunken sailor in a whorehouse!

And the Tories promised to match Labour’s spending :

Tories ‘to match Labour spending’

“A Conservative government would match Labour’s projected public spending totals for the next three years, shadow chancellor George Osborne has said”.

So that’s both Labour and the Tories behaving like “a drunken sailor in a whorehouse” then.

Although I agree that the Tories would not have worried about unemployment reaching 3.5 to 4 million, with all the consequences that would have had on both the economy and individual human beings, and would have been unlikely to boost spending to deal with it. This proves they are more capable ?

And in a Tory recession people loose not only their jobs but their homes too. Compare homes repossessed during the recession of the early nineties under the Tories with homes repossessed during the global recession under Labour

So where’s the proof that the Tories are more capable ?

At the start of the last recession it was widely suggested that unemployment could climb to 3.5 million plus, the fact that it didn’t rise above 2.5 million despite the enormity of the recession doesn’t suggest that Labour are less capable than the Tories.

There have been deficits pretty every year that the Tories have been in government since WW2, it never bothered them before.