That Union block vote is also democratic

Err wasn’t the union block vote abolished by John Smith in the Early nineties?

*Candidates are selected by local members.

I thought this was proved to be a crock for the last… however long… because we got people like Tristran Hunt parachuted in over the locals.

I understand what you mean and agree that it used to be like that, but I really don’t think that the modern Labour party still does that in all cases.

Err wasn’t the union block vote abolished by John Smith in the Early nineties?

Nope! Still very much alive and well. Thank god!! If it wasn’t we might not have ended up with this….

Once he’d taken advantage of it, Ed was going to get rid of it though. Apprently it was his ‘Clause 4 Moment’

He must have been a bit busy since then though, as he doesn’t appear to have got round to it

You may laugh but …..

I’m not laughing at all – I said it was too tragic.

The Labour Party since the hard right seized control has become a nasty stalinist organisation in which all power is concentrated in the hands of the Leader.

Just one small point because as I said I really cba :

“Constituency parties send their selected delegates to conferences to vote on policy decisions”

Conference is a completely meaningless staged managed PR gimmick that Joseph Stalin himself would have been proud of.

Policy is no longer decided by Conference, it’s decided by the Leader. And he doesn’t have to consult anyone other than himself, while he’s sitting down have a shit, if he wants to.

Those thugs are physically throwing out a 82 man who escaped from the Nazis because what he said at Conference displeased the leadership. Afterwards the leadership were very sorry that it had all been filmed – they prefer the gags and silence of dissent to be done quietly through administrative means, as is generally the case.

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aracer – Member

but I imagine it is theoretically democratic in the same way that the UK is theoretically democratic.

I think a better analogy might be it’s theoretically democratic in the same way that the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea is theoretically democratic.

BTW I am impressed with your claim that it was a Tory prime minister who championed the case for a National Health Service. Specially as the Conservatives were opposed to the creation of the NHS and voted against the Second and Third reading of the NHS Act

21 times they voted against it – twenty **** one
They should still be thoroughly ashamed of that.

Smith did get rid of the traditional union block vote but labour leadership election rules are not that simple.

The vote is split into thirds. A third of the vote is MEPs and MPs, a third of it is Labour party members, a third of it is union members. However this remains democractic as the MPs and MEPs were selected by local members. The trade union vote is based on how trade union members vote not on their leadership like the Tories and Murdoch would have you think.

Normal proceedure for selecting candidates is a vote by members however there are emergency rules that can be used by the national party where they come up with the short list instead of the local party. The vast, vast majority of selections are not done in this way.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAaWvVFERVA[/video]

ernie_lynch – Member

You may laugh but …..

I’m not laughing at all – I said it was too tragic.

The Labour Party since the hard right seized control has become a nasty stalinist organisation in which all power is concentrated in the hands of the Leader.

Just one small point because as I said I really cba :

“Constituency parties send their selected delegates to conferences to vote on policy decisions”

Conference is a completely meaningless staged managed PR gimmick that Joseph Stalin himself would have been proud of.

Policy is no longer decided by Conference, it’s decided by the Leader. And he doesn’t have to consult anyone other than himself, while he’s sitting down have a shit, if he wants to.

Those thugs are physically throwing out a 82 man who escaped from the Nazis because what he said at Conference displeased the leadership. Afterwards the leadership were very sorry that it had all been filmed – they prefer the gags and silence of dissent to be done quietly through administrative means, as is generally the case.

.

The leadership didn’t seize power the members gave it to them. The leadership and NEC proposed rule changes and the members voted them through! Yes the annual conference is a rubber stamping exercise these days but again is because members voted for it to be that way.

If members wanted reform there was a special conference just last year where they could have changed the constiution and party rules. Guess what? They backed the leadership’s proposed changed 86% to 14%…..

The trade union vote is based on how trade union members vote not on their leadership

So the GMB’s leadership who were elected by GMB members shouldn’t say who their prefered candidate is?

Those of you on the left who say the Labour party isn’t what it should be but don’t particpate in the party you should start looking at yourselves.

The leadership didn’t seize power the members gave it to them.

You are Uncle Joe and I claim my bullet in the back of my head.

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You need someone like this to sell that sort of stuff.

Well unless more doctors results in more patients, I’m not sure how that effect can be avoided.

The number of patients per doctor is not the only measure of productivity. Quality of care and outcomes are also valuable.

I’d prefer if we funded more doctors so they could spend longer with each patient and give a better quality of care. Rather than asking our GPs to spend 10 mins per patient, see 40+ patients a day and then review endless letters from the hospital docs, blood test results and write up the insanely detailed notes required to fend of potential malpractive suits. All while giving access to a GP within 24hrs, something even the insanely expensive US system fails to do.

We need some politicians with the balls to stand up and say this, rather than just try to claim we can magically get more value for money if we just focus our ire at a tiny tiny minority of scroungers and fatties.

ernie_lynch – Member

You are Uncle Joe and I claim my bullet in the back of my head.

.

You need someone like this to sell that sort of stuff.

It is true! Constituency parties voted to select a delegate to send to conference. At succesevie conferences those delegates have voted to give greater control over policies and decision making to the leadership.

If you think this was the wrong thing to do where were you? Did you go to your CLP meeting to vote for the delegate? Did you go to your CLP meeting to pass motions declaring a particular stance on party policy?

@ Binners

I haven’t waded through this entire thread, but I think your first post was absolutely spot on, and as someone who believes that Margaret Thatcher was our greatest 20th century prime minister, it isn’t often I agree with you. 🙂

Bank Profits restored and bonuses back to normal

Profits at banks are much lower than they were pre-crises. Employment levels are down by the 100,000’s and bonuses are a fraction of what they were on a percentage and absolute basis. Bonuses aren’t popular with the public but for higher paid staff they raise 60% tax on every pound awarded. Russell Brand says bonuses total £80bn so that’s £48bn in tax and NI collected.

Union members chose to affiliate to the labour party or not affiliate
If you affiliate* you, the member, get a vote in labour elections if you do not you do not. There is no block its individual votes.
The problem with labour voting is that the unions are the largest number and each vote counts the least with MPs and MEP being the fewest and having the most votes as each college gets a weighted 1/3. For example had the other miliband got four more votes from Mp/MEP’s he would have won. It is not OMOV but it is not weighted to favour the unions it weighted against them.Its perfectly possible to win a labour leadership without getting anywhere near the majority of votes cast and that is unfair.

I would not disagree with ernie about how stage managed the conference is.

* i only speak of Unison but I assume it is true of the other Unions but am prepared to be corrected on that point.

fr0sty this is futile if you are going to maintain this ridiculous pretense that the Labour Party is democratic.

The above incident which I posted a picture of occurred because Walter Wolfgang shouted “nonsense” when Jack Straw spoke in favour of the Iraq War. The Labour Party had banned all debates on the Iraq War. Why? Because no one wanted to speak about it? Of course not. But because Tony Blair was not prepared to allow anyone to express an opinion which disagreed with his.

That is even though all debates/votes staged at the sham which is called Conference are completely non-binding. Debating Iraq and letting people express their opinions was simply too democratic for the hard right to stomach.

I have no faith whatsoever that the Labour Party can ever again represent the interests of ordinary working people because the hard right purged all democracy from the party after they seized power, and placed sufficient obstacles so that it can never be regained, while at the same time maintaining a self-perpetuating elite leadership.

It doesn’t matter what policies Ed Miliband dreams up, left-wing or otherwise, without democracy the Labour Party can never be the mass party of the working people it once was, it needs to be connected to the people to be that.

And as I’ve pointed out the undemocratic nature of the Labour Party guarantees a self-perpetuating elite leadership which will always resist democracy. Time to look elsewhere or to build a new party.

If you affiliate* you, the member, get a vote in labour elections if you do not you do not. There is no block its individual votes.

So if I am a Labour Party member, and also a union member, how many votes do I get?

None Z-11, you’re in UKIP aren’t you? Or haven’t you yet defected from the Tories? Perhaps you’re waiting for your guru Dan Hannan to jump ship?

why would I vote for UKIP when I’ve got Gove as my MP?

Good point Z-11. I can’t say there’s a huge difference between the two – both are raving right-wing and a bit loopy. As you were.

Indeed – which is why I’m quite happy for their productivity if measured purely on the number of patients seen to be lower – which seemed to be the only measure just5 wanted to use. Hence my analogy about teachers and class sizes.

You have to wonder what the Scottish Labour people have been smoking, really.

First Jim Murphy puts out a video and tweets that Scotland has many more cancelled operations than England.

Then it’s pointed out that they’ve misunderstood the statistics, so instead of apologising the video is deleted.

Labour then go on the attack, blaming the SNP for not producing statistics they can understand.

So the SNP decide to be nice and bring out more detailed weekly statistics.

Labour then claim this as a massive triumph.

Then there’s a motion in Holyrood welcoming the new statistics, and Labour vote against it.

Meanwhile, two other Labour muppets are filmed standing in front of a shut NHS clinic, complaining about NHS closures. Pity they missed the brand new clinic built to replace it just down the road.

Really, honestly, if the BBC weren’t fawning over every Jim Murphy utterance then they’d be in singe digits in the polls. I remember the Labour Party of old, what on earth has happened to them?

You can’t blame Murphy for that Ben it was pretty much the same before he took over 🙂

Oh no, I’m not blaming Murphy – but what on earth were they thinking picking an uber-Blairite like Murphy in the first place?

if I am a Labour Party member, and also a union member, how many votes do I get?

I think you know the answer. An MP in a union gets three with each one being worth massively different % as well. At no point have I argued this system is fair but the weighting is not to the union. I assume you are accepting this fact given the maths?

FWIW Tory MPs get to vote for who stands in the contest to be leader and then in the leaders election. I am less sure if this counts as voting twice but it does seem unfair.

Really, honestly, if the BBC weren’t fawning over every Jim Murphy utterance then they’d be in singe digits in the polls.

Because what Jim Murphy and Scottish Labour says is of no news value and should be ignored? As your little rant drawing attention to what Jim Murphy and Scottish Labour having been saying proves.

Still, keep blaming the BBC – remember it was them what lost you the referendum.

I wonder what the Scottish people “have been smoking” that makes them so susceptible to being manipulated by the BBC ?

I am voting UKIP but this afternoon I was messed up by some local bureaucratic ZMs in GeordieLand who demanded me to pay £500 plus for something which I should have got for free in the first place. These are very greedy ZMs …

Apart from entertainment, I want to vote for UKIP purely out of sympathy for the local population but the way I was treated recently and this afternoon, I really feel like opening the floor gate to let entire world population to live here to dilute the bureaucratic ZM genes.

I am in a dilemma now …

Because what Jim Murphy and Scottish Labour says is of no news value and should be ignored?

No, that’s not what I said. The idea of an impartial broadcaster is that they impartially report the facts, and if they’re a broadcaster of note then they should also have investigative journalists to actually establish what the facts are.

BBC Scotland don’t seem to do that. They just happily run with whatever Labour have fed them, uncritically. When the Murphy gaffe was revealed, the BBC didn’t say that Labour had got teh statistics wrong, they reported that “the SNP claim that Labour have got the statistics wrong”.

Still, keep blaming the BBC – remember it was them what lost you the referendum.

No it wasn’t. But we were fooled into thinking we had an impartial public service broadcaster, when we don’t.

And the thing is, I’m not a SNP supporter. I grew up a Labour supporter. My politics haven’t changed, but the Labour party has shifted far, far to the right of where it was. Supporting austerity, wanting to renew Trident – they’re so far away from where they were, they’re only the Labour Party in name.

I’d love the old Labour Party back. I’d probably vote for them.

bencooper – Member

No it wasn’t. But we were fooled into thinking we had an impartial public service broadcaster, when we don’t.

Yes, there is no such things as impartial public service broadcaster especially regarding the referendum. You guys were fooled.

Also I was surprised by my colleagues’ views that Scotland is seen as a conquered trophy land.

😯

Yeah I was disappointed too when the hard right seized control of the Labour Party and screwed the party up, but I don’t tediously blame the BBC at every given opportunity.

I will be supporting the Green Party in my constituency this GE (other choices might exist in other British constituencies). Whatever the result I’m certain it won’t be enough to satisfy me – should I blame the BBC, not enough coverage, exclusion from televised debates, etc?

EDIT : My support for the Labour Party was only ever on the basis that it was “the” mass party of the working people, and that the election of a Labour government always represented a definitive step forward in the interests of ordinary working people, but beyond that I was under no illusions – it was a social-democratic party whose ultimate role was to manage capitalism, be it in a manner which benefited ordinary working people more.

Vote Green.
At least they give a shit about something thats not just themselves.
A few extra politicians hopefully doing something meaningful

Sums up my support for labour that ernie

They were once radical though but not in our lifetimes

Jim Murphy is the living embodiment of how far the Labour Party has comprehensively detached itself from its core vote, and how utterly and completely politically clueless Ed Milliband is.

What has the Scottish referendum, and the heomoraging of the labour vote to the SNP taught us? We’re not quite sure, but the answer lies in imposing, from our Ivory towers in Westminster, an ultra-Blairite to sort it out.

Yes Ed… that’s the answer that everyone was crying out for! Being hectored with neo-liberal, faux Tory rhetoric will definitely rally the faithful. That’s how the situation looks from Islington, is it? You utter cockwomble!

binners – Member

Jim Murphy is the living embodiment of how far the Labour Party has comprehensively detached itself from its core vote reality

FTFY… The thing is he genuinely seems to think he’s doing a good job. I suppose this is a hidden risk of being given an easy ride by the people around you- if you’re never challenged, and reading newspaper stories about how you’re doing greatm you get to believing it, and as a result end up doing even worse. Meanwhile everyone else thinks you’re a fanny.

It was always pretty likely that Murphy’d be a disaster but I’m not happy to be able to say “told you so”, really wish we had a leader. The demolition of the labour party in Scotland has no positives, other than the fact that it might wake them up but jesus, how much waking up can they need?

Yes, Murphy was seriously claiming until recently that Labour wouldn’t lose any seats in the coming GE. That’s self delusion on an epic scale.

I think the clearest example that the whole system is complrehensively FUBARed is the contimual “Vote X get Y” messages. Vote SNP, get Labour. Vote SNP, get Tory. Vote Green get Tory. Vote UKIP get Labour. Vote Plaid get UKIP. We’ve had almost every possible permutation. What does this mean? It says to me that the political syste is broken, the parties don’t have any ideas, and they care more about fighting with each other than they do about looking after the country.

Why isn’t there a “None of the above” option on the ballot paper? Because it’d win in a landslide.

Yeah I was disappointed too when the hard right seized control of the Labour Party and screwed the party up, but I don’t tediously blame the BBC at every given opportunity.

I will be supporting the Green Party in my constituency this GE (other choices might exist in other British constituencies). Whatever the result I’m certain it won’t be enough to satisfy me – should I blame the BBC, not enough coverage, exclusion from televised debates, etc?

I don’t quite understand why you object so much to me criticising the BBC – isn’t it a bad thing if a national broadcaster is being biased? I wouldn’t mind so much if it was a newspaper, but the BBC is funded by all of us and has an obligation to be fair and balanced. Shouldn’t we hold the BBC to higher standards, and complain when it is being partial?

Because slagging off the BBC is a very lazy, tedious, and now very fashionable – specially among right-wingers, cop out.

For all its failings the BBC is one of the most respected and quality news provider in the world – it’s reputation is deservingly world renown.

Yes its political slant does not always meet with my approval, far from it. And yes imo since its Director-General was sacked because the BBC offended New Labour when it told the truth about Tony Blair ‘sexed up’ Iraqi dossier (the only head to roll as the result of the total **** up that was the Iraq War was the Director-General of the BBC – no politicians were sacked for the greatest foreign policy disaster since Suez ffs) it has become noticeably more timid and less fearless in reporting stories which might embarrass the government. Thank you Tony Blair/New Labour – another great legacy which you must be proud of.

But we have to deal with what we’ve got – whingeing endless with “it ain’t fair” is unconstructive and pointless. Aim to achieve your political goals even though things are stacked against you. You know, like the Tory press making things as difficult as possible for you – are you going to whine endlessly about the Daily Mail? The Tory press will never change, are you therefore going to give up because the battle can’t be won?

If you have faith in your political convictions then you should have faith in overcoming obstacles. You watch and listen to the BBC how come you have come to your conclusions despite that? Are you somehow superior to those who watch and listen to the BBC and have come to a different conclusion to yours?

Stop blaming the BBC. Leave that to the Daily Mail, the Sun, and the varied assortment of right-wingers who despise the BBC because they can’t fully control it.