[Closed] Labour Party problems

meanwhile....

… and round and round in circles we go….

Indeed. Wonder if it'll end in another victorious leadership election for JC where he again increases his vote? There's an easy way for it to stop, and that's for the losers to admit they lost, accept that JC is the leader, and to do their jobs of campaigning for a labour govt. Or they can carry on helping the tories. It really is very simple.

… and round and round in circles we go….

It's almost as if the media don't want to ask the tories anything for a bit longer.

… and round and round in circles we go….

Indeed. Wonder if it’ll end in another victorious leadership election for JC where he again increases his vote? There’s an easy way for it to stop, and that’s for the losers to admit they lost, accept that JC is the leader, and to do their jobs of campaigning for a labour govt. Or they can carry on helping the tories. It really is very simple.

Why should people accept Jeremy and all that entails when Jeremy himself voted against the Labour leadership over 400 times and with the Conservatives 7 times?

Why should people accept Jeremy and all that entails when Jeremy himself voted against the Labour leadership over 400 times and with the Conservatives 7 times?

That's a non sequitur. If they want a Labour govt, that's what they should work towards.

JC may or may not have voted against the leadership - that is not the same thing as criticising the leadership for doing what they themselves have recently advocated, as in the Margaret Hodge example quoted above.

when Jeremy himself voted against the Labour leadership over 400 times

Yawn. I don't think anyone, let alone JC wants to shut down debate on policy. In fact as far as I can see through his party reforms to give the membership more influence he's trying to increase debate. They do however have to accept the result of a fair and democratic leadership election. I can't recall JC or any of the other lefties ever suggesting that Blair or Brown weren't the rightfully elected leaders of the party.

There’s an easy way for it to stop, and that’s for the losers to admit they lost, accept that JC is the leader, and to do their jobs of campaigning for a labour govt.

False Dichotomy. They can find political roles away from the HoC (eg Mayor Of Manchester), leave the HoC all together or form a new party. There are more than two options here. I don't think there's any suggestion that Labour moderates don't accept they've lost. All their actions have demonstrated clearly that they understood the situation - you don't resign in dribs and drabs over a couple of days unless you know you're in an existential fight. they knew, and they knew when they'd lost.

Maybe having a pop at the leadership gains a bit more publicity for those considering establishing a new party, so it's not necessarily wasted effort. Or maybe some people are just venting a bit of steam before they get deselected.

I can’t recall JC or any of the other lefties ever suggesting that Blair or Brown weren’t the rightfully elected leaders of the party.

Can you cite someone in the Parliamentary Labour Party who has said JC wasn't the rightfully elected leaders of the party? I'd be interested in seeing their logic.

If they want a Labour govt, that’s what they should work towards.

So when Jeremy voted with the Conservatives he was working towards a Labour government then?

And lets not forget Momentums leaders stance on MPs that vote for the Tories....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/18/momentum-leader-calls-deselection-mps-who-voted-with-tories-brexit-trade-bill

False Dichotomy.

The false dichotomy is that they can't support the party and work towards it's success, without supporting Corbyn personally, or 'joining the HoC' as you hyperbolically put it. Corbyn et al always opposed Blair, but they never worked against the broader aims of the party which is what the likes of Hodge et al are currently doing.

‘joining the HoC’ as you hyperbolically put it.

I didn't say joining the HoC, I said leaving and how is leaving the HoC hyperbole?

The false dichotomy is that they can’t support the party and work towards it’s success

How is "they can’t support the party and work towards it’s success" a false dichotomy?

CBA with pedantry. You know exactly what we're debating. You're suggesting that the labour party has become a cult of personality around JC. I'm suggesting that's not the case. Quite frankly this obsession with JC is ridiculous, on both sides. I have no doubt he probably finds it quite embarrassing, uncomfortable and not a little inconvenient seeing as he was probably looking forward to a stress free retirement. The sooner they get on with reforming the party and perhaps winning an election, the sooner everyone can move on and we can get back to normal.

May should be dreading PMQ’s with everything as it stands. Her main policies, such as they are, are in free fall, her party is a total shambles, at war with itself, all while economic Armageddon looms larger and larger.

As it is, I bet she can’t wait. Easiest part of her week.

I’ll put my house on her mentioning antisemitism in the first sentence of her first answer, then repeatedly referencing it from then on.

And we all know Jezza avoids the issue of Brexit like the plague anyway.

Maybe we’ll have a few more questions about buses?

Like shooting fish in a barrel

I suspect both May and Corbyn neither dread or look forward to PMQs and regard it like most others as a pointless piece of political theatre that does very little other than to fill airtime on 24 hour news channels.

Jezza doesn’t need to fill airtime. His attempt to add a 500 word caveat before accepting the definition of antisemitism has already seen to that.

Talk about clueless?

I’ve got Items of furniture with sharper political instincts

Jezza doesn’t need to fill airtime. His attempt to add a 500 word caveat before accepting the definition of antisemitism has already seem to that.

Yeah - that freedom of speech - who needs it, eh?

voted with the Conservatives he was working towards a Labour government then?

Well first of all you need to show he was voting with the tories eg show that he was voting against the whip. Then lets take a look at each in turn and see whether it was actually helping the tories. Since four of those named seem to be the new labour control freakery I would doubt it. The other three are more messy.

Worth remembering out of those 400 its only 7 listed as where he voted with the majority of tories against the majority of Labour. Says something about the rest doesnt it?

When was he in the press launching attack after attack on Blair and demanding his resignation.

I’ve got Items of furniture with sharper political instincts

He's a conviction politician. I suspect his political instincts tell him that's his main asset, so he should demonstrate it at every opportunity. It won him the leadership against massive odds, it also overturned predictions of a tory landslide and a 20 point poll deficit. The evidence would suggest his political instincts are much more astute than those of his opponents.

voted with the Conservatives he was working towards a Labour government then?

There's a difference between voting for what you believe to be right, even if it happens to be with the Tories, and acting against your own party even though you don't actually believe what you say.

I suspect both May and Corbyn neither dread or look forward to PMQs and regard it like most others as a pointless piece of political theatre that does very little other than to fill airtime on 24 hour news channels.

Agree, it should be scrapped.  Scripted responses to questions whose answer usually revolves around "well look what happened when Labour were in power"  If I was Labour leader I would make a stand against it all together and not ask any questions as I would see it as just wasting my time.

I would also claim fake news on the anti semite stuff and move on (mainly because a lot of it is).  Politics is different now and you need to play that to your advantage.

You’re suggesting that the labour party has become a cult of personality around JC.

I'm not going to continue to discuss this with you for the obvious reasons, but I'm not going to let you get away with this. I have never suggested the labour party is a cult of personality around JC and I certainly don't think it. Christ, both Dianne Abbot and John McDonnell have far more charisma. JC as a personality is irrelevant to these events, once they had the leadership *anyone* from Corbyn's wing of the party would have achieved the same. Which isn't to deny him the credit or the blame (depending on your perspective) or to suggest he's done a bad job - he's  achieved all his goals.

Talk about clueless?

Go on then. Explain why he is clueless. After all the Home Office Select Committee expressed concern about some of the examples and wanted caveats putting in place. The bloke who drafted it expressed concerns to the US congress about how it was being used to shut down free speech.

Its an bad document which does need caveats.

Agree, it should be scrapped.

+1

Someone asking unanswerable questions of someone adept in not answering questions.

A national embarrassment, always was. Blair was spot on to reduce it to one session a week, it should be 0 sessions.

I know how much everyone looks forward to my photos...

This one of Newsnight's Emily Maitlis and the lord of darkness himself, Peter Mandelson at a Spectator event should liven the debate a bit:

Of course, being as it was taken back in 2010, it could be dismissed as ancient history; but there again, so could Mandelson's key role in Tony Blair's rise to power, beginning in the 1980s, which still has impact today...

First question from a Tory MP to the PM was about guess what?

Go on.... have a wild stab?

Go on…. have a wild stab?

Why she lied about claiming the tories had included the IHRA definition and examples in their own code of conduct when they hadnt?

Its odd all those Hodge and co dont bother asking about that. Its almost like there is some other motive.

Binners what did JC ask his questions about?

I think this is where binners goes quiet and sucks his thumb for a bit.

Don’t worry though, he’ll soon be back bleating about the sixth form or such like.

Corbyn killed May on Brexit today, she had no answers, even her attempts at mentioning AS fell flat

brexit is a millstone for the tories

unfortunately its been overshadowed by the russia announcement, something corbyn looks weaker on

Not trying to catch Binners out particularly, just trying to demonstrate that the hysteria generated from both sides about Corbyn, and the mundane boring reality are very far apart. I have no idea why a man with less charisma than a wet sock inspires such passion. I suppose it's got to be better than a grandstanding narcissist being the next potential PM.

Its odd how all these campaigners arent ranting and raving about how other parties havent adopted it.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/05/the-ihra-definition-of-antisemitism-where-uk-parties-stand

Note how the May lied about adopting it and even now its a tad vague. The definition after all is what Labour adopted ages back. It is the examples which are the problem.

Quote Binners

"I’ve got Items of furniture with sharper political instincts"

You really should chat to your furniture more because you have no clue!  Yvette Cooper FFS!

Well Binners, the usually hostile Guardian reckons that he ran rings round May at PMQs.

Your assessment is as accurate as your predictions at the last general election.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/05/pmqs-verdict-jeremy-corbyn-dances-rings-round-may-on-brexit

Good morning nice to see you again thanks for coming.

How very dull.cranberry how's May doing with Europe?

Like Steve Bell but not funny or insightful.

What's up with Chukka? Presumably he can't stand Boris Johnson robbing him of the limelight? Yesterday he was calling labour members dogs, today he's saying the party is institutionally racist. Tomorrow I presume he'll be accusing Corbyn of being a suicide bomber? And yet he has the cheek to complain when labour members express their displeasure at their MPs working against the party's interests.

Like Steve Bell

Agreed.

not funny or insightful.

Agreed.

Hang on, how are these two things connected? That's not his work.

What’s up with Chukka?

Fighting for his place in the party, and for the interests of it… as he sees it… much like Corbyn has always done.

Fighting for his place in the party, and for the interests of it

By insulting the members and calling it racist. He has a funny way of going about it.

Chukka seems to always be preparing for a leadership challenge yet forgetting that last time he ran, he pulled out after 3 days because of "scrutiny", then threw his enormous weight behind a candidate that got 4% of votes.

And he’s a blairite/moderate. And there is no momentum behind those kind of views. Purge ‘em...

Purge ‘em…

And yet he's still there. Either they're not very good at purging, or the purge is a paranoid fantasy of people who can't cope with the fact that the majority of the party disagree with them.

Do they moan about it a lot?’ The members who can’t accept the result of the vote(s)?

What’s up with Chukka? Presumably he can’t stand Boris Johnson robbing him of the limelight?

This plus lots - he is another pea from the same pod - me, me me - to hell with the country, or the party come to that.

What’s up with Chukka? Presumably he can’t stand Boris Johnson robbing him of the limelight?

This plus lots – he is another pea from the same pod – me, me me – to hell with the country, or the party come to that.

He appears to have support of those that voted for him, with an enviable majority of 68.5%, so he appeals to those he represents!

But still, best not disagree with Momentums Corbyn inspired Labour if you want to keep your job.

He appears to have support of those that voted for him, with an enviable majority of 68.5%, so he appeals to those he represents!

Did they vote for him, or for Labour?

But still, best not disagree with Momentums Corbyn inspired Labour if you want to keep your job.

Or best not fiddle your expenses, take money from Israel, or concoct fake antisemitic incidents.

By insulting the members and calling it racist.

Who did he call dogs, it's a fairly.common thing when somebody has unleashed their attack dogs (common phrase) on people..i thought JM was just learning to copy the Jewish lobby

Did they vote for him, or for Labour?

Or Momentum?

Or Momentum?

Unlikely since Momentum was not on the ballot paper.

The conservatives, sorry moderates, in the party have always had an issue with Corbyn but what polices don't they like as don't hear them talking about them?

What policies do the moderates even want as presumably they don't like Corbyn's for some reason?