Jeremy Corbyn

Hanging onto a massively safe Labour seat with a local candidate who's very much a moderate in the party is hatdly an endorsement for the keadership is it ?

I did indeed listen to the speech before I posted, just like Len McClusky says Corbyn really needs to engage his brain before speaking. He just cant help himself.

All posting services gladly donated foc

jambalaya - Member

Corbyn really needs to engage his brain before speaking. He just cant help himself.

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[quote=jambalaya opined]Hanging onto a massively safe Labour seat with a local candidate who's very much a moderate in the party is hatdly an endorsement for the keadership is it ?

On would imagine the way to protest your opposition to the current leadership and her methods would be to vote the party out in a relatively meaningless by election and give him a bloody nose. You know what you were predicting would happen. Now it has not then clearly delivering a great result for labour is definitely the way to show you hate the leader...who could argue otherwise with such an insight.

I did indeed listen to the speech before I posted,

just like Len McClusky says Corbyn really needs to engage his brain before speaking.

He just cant help himself.

I did indeed listen to the speech before I posted

jambalaya - Member

I did indeed listen to the speech before I posted

Nobody suggested otherwise. We know you're a compulsive liar, and that it really makes no difference to you whether you've listened to the speech or not.

We know you[s]'re a compulsive liar,[/s] work for Conservative Central Office

FIFY

If jambalaya is working for Conservative Central Office someone needs to get the sack.

I like how we're all ignoring him, these threads work much better for it.

Northwind you suggested the Telegrapgh was lying so feel free to contact IPSO, as you know with me those sort of accusations are like water off a ducks back.

Guardian suggesting there will be a purge of the Shadow Cabinet. IRONY, oh yes indeed from the man who voted against his own party and government 500 times doesnt like it when the boot is on the other foot. If there is a purge Corbyns credibility sink even further as the Shadow Cabinet sill look even lighter on experience.

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/05/labour-corbyn-critics-fear-shadow-cabinet-revenge-reshuffle ]Guaedian Link[/url]

If jambalaya is working for Conservative Central Office someone needs to get the sack.

I like how we're all ignoring him

Indeed 😉 No need to ask about the motives though.....and we do have the full impact of Desmond too

Salut Jamba, ca va?

the trolls be a trolling and wise words squirell

Northwind you suggested the Telegrapgh was lying so feel free to contact IPSO

Because as everyone knows newspapers are only ever allowed to tell the truth.........that's why if you read something in the Daily Mail you know it must be true!

😆

He's such a gift to their cause.

And you jambalaya, are such a gift to all lefties on here 8)

I feel you should be on my christmas card list.

Don't feed the troll kids.

Guardian suggesting there will be a purge of the Shadow Cabinet. IRONY, oh yes indeed from the man who voted against his own party and government 500 times doesnt like it when the boot is on the other foot.

You obviously don't understand the difference between being a backbencher and being in the cabinet or shadow cabinet......politics not your forte?

The suggestion which has been made is that boundary review should be used as an opportunity to select Labour candidates which better represent today's new Labour Party - rather than the old irrelevant Blairite party.

For example on the bombing Syria vote 66 Labour MPs were completely at odds with the overwhelming view of the Labour Party - indeed even the overwhelming view of Labour MPs.

There is very clear evidence of serious disconnection between between many MPs and their party, as indisputably proved by the fact that 60% of party members and supporters voted for Corbyn to be their party leader while only 6% of MPs did.

Furthermore so undemocratic is the Labour Party that no Labour MP had the slightest idea of Corbyn's obvious popularity within the party, until it was too late for them to do anything about it. In fact they mistakenly thought that he had no support at all - how is it possible for MPs to understand so little about their own party?

To correct this obviously totally unacceptable situation does not amount to a "purge" but an exercise in democracy. The successful selection candidate simply needs to reflect the democratic will of those on whose behalf he or she is standing.

If however the local party wants to select a blairite candidate that's not a problem - Oldham proved that when after 45 years it switched from a left-wing parliamentary candidate to a much more right-wing candidate. No fuss was created and everyone was happy with the process - it was what the local party wanted.

Be suspicious of people who don't like democracy.

grum - Member

Don't feed the troll kids.

On the contrary, jambalaya gives me the perfect opportunity to hone my skills in taking on dishonest Tory nonsense.

Admittedly he provides no great challenge but I treat it like an easy bike ride which gets your legs spinning and is therefore still beneficial even if it isn't particularly challenging.

Don't feed the troll kids.

But who are the trolls?

Ernie - some interesting thoughts on that from Gaitskell:

[video]

[i]"Let me repeat what Manny Shinwell said, the place to decide the leadership of this party is not here, but in the Parliamentary Labour Party, and I would not wish, for one day, to remain a leader who had lost the confidence of his colleagues in Parliament"[/i]

Just imagine - A man of honour leading the Labour Party 😉

I've just seen on today's FT website that the Scottish Tories have carried out a widescale purge of the party, never mind talking about it ..... half their candidates have been ditched in a desperate attempt to make their party appear more electable in Scotland.

And also according to the FT Scottish Tories plan to limit the number of campaign visits made by Cameron during the Holyrood election campaign as he is seen as an election liability, which I guess is reasonable .... unlike Corbyn Cameron's views on bombing Syria were seriously at odds with the majority of Scots.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8c49159a-99d1-11e5-9228-87e603d47bdc.html#axzz3tY2FUoiR

jambalaya - Member

as you know with me those sort of accusations are like water off a ducks back.

Yep, we know that too 😆 Though, it's not an accusation, it's an observation.

The psychology of lying is complicated tbh, for some people credibility is important whereas others seem to enjoy it more when their lies are outrageous and easily seen through. In other words, some people like to mislead, some people like to make a noise.

[quote=ernie_lynch ]
> http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8c49159a-99d1-11e5-9228-87e603d47bdc.html#axzz3tY2FUoiR
br />

Subscription only.

8)

Although I don't like to say it allthepies there is a way round it. If you do a search of :

Scotland Tories refreshes its election candidates

under Google News, it will provide you with a link that doesn't go via the paywall.

All FT links in Google News are free.

But who are the trolls?

The ones making greatest use of the Ad Hom Fallacy IME.

When used inappropriately, it[ad hom] is a logical fallacy in which a claim or argument is dismissed on the basis of some irrelevant fact or supposition about the author or the person being criticized.[2] [b]Ad hominem reasoning is not always fallacious, for example, when it relates to the credibility of statements of fact[/b] or when used in certain kinds of moral and practical reasoning.t

unlike Corbyn Cameron's views on bombing Syria were seriously at odds with the majority of Scots.

[url= http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/yougov-subsample-suggests-scotland-is.html ]I'm not sure 41% is a majority[/url]

Northwind you suggested the Telegrapgh was lying so feel free to contact IPSO, as you know with me those sort of accusations are like water off a ducks back.

Corbyn [said] that [Henning's] death was the "result of warmongering and jingo-ism"

Ad hominem reasoning is not always fallacious

It is. You can't simply confirm or refute an argument based on the credibility of the person stating it.

...but even if it wasn't playing the man rather than the argument isn't very nice, and trolls/people who now they are wrong typically use it and people who aren't trolling/know they are right typically avoid it.

when it relates to the credibility of statements of fact

Nope, you have to verify facts for yourself, you can't just assume a fact is true/false based on who said it.

mefty - Member

I'm not sure 41% is a majority

That is a very valid point.

However I was going on the understanding that 72% is.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/syria-air-strikes-poll-shows-uk-is-divided-over-decision-to-extend-bombing-a6756171.html

Although I'm sure you will question the validity of the poll.

EDIT : Your own link questions the validity of the poll which you refer to :

[i] The SNP lead in the Scottish subsample is unusually "low" : SNP 41%, Labour 24%, Conservatives 20%, UKIP 8%, Liberal Democrats 4%, Greens 2%. Although on the face of it that's bad news, it leaves open the possibility that there are too few SNP voters in the subsample as a result of normal sampling variation, in which case it's perfectly conceivable that Scottish opposition to air strikes is being underestimated by the above figures. The fact that a wildly implausible combined total of 28% of the subsample are Tory or UKIP voters would tend to support that theory.[/i]

Although I'm sure you will question the validity of the poll.

Well it was obviously biased as they asked people who weren't in favour, which is tantamount to sympathising with terrorists, if not worse.

I hadn't seen the one in the Independent - but I would agree YouGuv isn't conclusive because the polling companies look for balance across the whole sample and it won't always follow that the regional subsets are statistically valid, but I was surprised when I saw it. The "narrative" from the SNP was very much that the Socts had a very different attitude - but they would say that wouldn't they.

And you jambalaya, are such a gift to all lefties on here

I feel you should be on my christmas card list.

People here seem to need a Pantomime villian and so it's all good fun really. Ignoring me means you all get to blame the right wing press and political donations etc for things you don't like rather than acknowledge theyre are compelling counter arguments.

@kona - JC said all the deaths where the result of ... therefore included Henning

@tmh, all well, here in Paris partly so Mrs B can vote in the regional elections - looks like first round will be 30% FN, 30% UMP, 20% PS so the socilaists are unlikely to make it into the second round next week in many of the new super-districts. Then winners will be decided not least based upon whether socialists will vote for the UMP to keep FN out. FN predicted to win Calais and Provence at least. Pretty stunning in one of Europes most left leaning countries.

It is. You can't simply confirm or refute an argument based on the credibility of the person stating it.

I have a nigerian uncle who just needs your help e-mail on its way.

rich-mars - Member
But who are the trolls?

The ones with the bloody great planks in their eyes - the chief and his posse have their favourite well in truly in their sights at the moment, despite pretending to ignore him. Sad, but hardly new. Always someone to pick on.

Thanks for the biblical reference

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

Glad you are above all the playing the man stuff.

As for pretending to ignore well really THM oh the irony. 😆

Another THM standard response aka 'If you can't win an argument, just dismiss everyone in it as beneath you'.

People here seem to need a Pantomime villian and so it's all good fun really.

That's a pretty obvious admission of trolling ^^^^ (which is against the forum rules might I remind you 😉 ).

And yes I try and ignore him (because of the constant trolling and refusal to accept factual evidence) but sometimes I end up seeing bits of his posts here and there. Not got round to doing the killfile thing yet.

@ernie, I have a rule never to troll, I certainly don't bother to try and dress up my posts in political correctness though.

@footflaps I think in 3 years you could count the arguments I've lost / been on the losing side here on the fingers of one hand, ie 4 or less 🙂 i can't think of a single one either where anyone has posted facts to prove me wrong. I suspect the EU referendum I'll come oit on the wrong side of in 2017, lets see but the Remain posters here have the upper hand result wise I think

Back to one of my favourites from 18 months ago which was that immigration would be a serious election issue and that UKIP wouod be a threat to the left. As I'm watching the results show in the French regional elections we have in Calais an area historically PS (left wing - Hollande) the first round results are

FN 40.7% (Le-Pen)
UMP 25% (Sarkozy)
PS 18%

So The socialists are out and unless their voters vote for "Sarkozy" in the run-off Le Pen will win (which was predicted befire the September attacks). They look elsewhere too.

outofbreath - Member

It is. You can't simply confirm or refute an argument based on the credibility of the person stating it.

...but even if it wasn't playing the man rather than the argument isn't very nice

You seem to misunderstand what happened there. Jamba told a blatant lie, which was refuted almost immediately with transcripts and video of what Corbyn actually said. Pointing out someone's lies is neither an ad hom or playing the man.

@ernie, I have a rule never to troll

That's very interesting I'm sure, but I have never accused you of trolling so I don't know why you feel the need to tell me.

You seem to misunderstand what happened there.

You're going to have to post the words I said that make it 'seem' that way because I can't see anything. I said trolls use the ad hom a lot and I defended the idea that the as hom fallacy is an err, fallacy.

Wasn't any misunderstanding in the words you quoted by me.

Ah, so you were just making a random observation about ad hom attacks, not referring to anything in particular? REason I ask is, looking over the last bit of the thread, I can't see what else you could be depicting as ad homs...

Mr Corbyn, who was speaking at a Stop The War rally, said: “I am pleased that we started with a period of silence for Alan Henning and all those others that have died in this appalling conflict.
“Because we have to remember them and remember that the price of war, the price of intervention, the price of jingoism is somebody else's son and somebody else's daughter either being killed or being killed by somebody else.”

Okay, well, let's take it one step at a time. Is it true or false that

Corbyn [said] that [Henning's] death was the "result of warmongering and jingo-ism"?

@kona - JC said all the deaths where the result of ... therefore included Henning

Do you genuinely not understand the meaning of those words or do you just think you can brazen it out? 😀

My mistake in these regional elecrions any party wth 12.5% makes fhe run off (unlike Presidential elections which are onky the top 2). Still left are so far back its hard to imagine they can recover

More preliminary results in and previously left wing areas have them relegated to third in all except Brittany.

A real lesson for Labour, and indeed Tories, here as in 2007 Front Nationale polled just 7%, they are now at 35-40%

I have a rule never to troll, I certainly don't bother to try and dress up my posts in political correctness though.

@footflaps I think in 3 years you could count the arguments I've lost / been on the losing side here on the fingers of one hand, ie 4 or less i can't think of a single one either where anyone has posted facts to prove me wrong.

Brilliant and of course not just like I have a rule never to copy and paste. 😆

There Is one on this thread of you being wrong but as KB notes you brazen it out so they dont just count.

Once I realised what you were up to I have really started to appreciate what you do.

, I can't see what else you could be depicting as ad homs...

You think the most ad hom-esque thing this thread is someone pointing out a fake quote?

Do you know what ad him means?

I did say "the last bit of the thread". Though for some mysterious reason you decided to cut that off when you quoted me.

Just explain why you think pointing out an incorrect quote is an ad hom.

What about the Alistair Carmichael thread,where you insisted NS had backed Cameron,despite the fact she clearly didn't or the thread you started to abuse Alex Salmond for giving most of his salary to charity? If that is your idea of a win,the bar must be set really low.

outofbreath - Member

Just explain why you think pointing out an incorrect quote is an ad hom.

I don't.

Northwind- member

Pointing out someone's lies is neither an ad hom or playing the man.

See?

@kona, I'm with the Telegragph on this one, not "brazening" anything out. I'm with the Guardian and Tristan Hunt on the Stop the War lot as I posted on the Syria thread. I'd see that as clear political neutrality in terms of source.

In no way shape or form would I ever see the murder of a volunteer aid worker as having equal status to his murderer or any other IS militant, not in any regard. So as I said I'm with the Telegrapgh the remarks where disgraceful.

I see Corbyn has been getting the message in that he Tweeted very promptly after the terrorist stabbing to say it was shocking and his thoughts where with the victim. He skipped the sympathy for the attacker and his motives and skipped blaming jingo-ism.