MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
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Most people's understanding of Corbynomics is that it's Keynesian Stimulus on steroids: Borrow money, have loads of good stuff, debt reduces.
How do you think money is created?
I'm pretty sure the questioner in the original youtube vid was asking for examples of countries where governments had borrowed to invest, and this had grown the economy and therefore reduced national debt.
[url= https://www.economist.com/news/21719753-socialists-say-their-keynesian-policies-are-working-others-fret-about-portugals ]Portugal?[/url]
Portugal?
Seemingly not:
The Socialists say their Keynesian policies are working; others fret about Portugal’s debts
How do you think money is created?
It's not what I think it's what the world's government economists think. My economic background is one Economics A Level. I don't often get calls from the French treasury asking how to painlessly grow their economy!
Nationalised industry - Norway
It's not so simple, Norway's government might hold a share in companies but they aren't nationalised in the traditional sense.
That's the bit that makes most people a bit skeptical.
They're only sceptical because idiots in the tory party deliberately mislead them by likening national finances to having a credit card. Thing is the general population couldn't GAS about economic theory, but what they do recognise is that when money is needed to fight wars, bailout banks, bribe Northern Ireland etc then it's there without barely a blink as to where it's going to come from. So it's hardly surprising is it that the public and politicians like Corbyn raise an eyebrow when the gods of finance tell them that it's just too expensive, and too difficult, and irresponsible.
dragon - Member
Nationalised industry - Norway
It's not so simple, Norway's government might hold a share in companies but they aren't nationalised in the traditional sense.
[img] 
[/img]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_government_enterprises_of_Norway#Wholly_owned
They're only sceptical because idiots in the tory party deliberately mislead them
Which is why it's worth asking the Labour Party for some examples of places it's worked.
It's not what I think it's what the world's government economists think. My economic background is one Economics A Level. I don't often get calls from the French treasury asking how to painlessly grow their economy!
How do you think money is created?
And I also had bad piriformis syndrome at the time, but luckily was using one of these, which are therefore fully recommended
I'll certainly pack one of those [heat wraps] when I next travel on Virgin trains. It will come in doubly handy as Hell will also have frozen over.
Which is why it's worth asking the Labour Party for some examples of places it's worked.
Pretty much everywhere. That's why the state invests in stuff like schools 'n such. (Having a state investment bank doesn't imply just taking taxpayers' money and spunking it on dodgy deals flogged by "financial experts".)
I used to buy a Parmo and use that as a heat-pad on my long journeys south.
Pretty much everywhere.
Bit vague. The QT audience member was only asking for one one country.
Which is why it's worth asking the Labour Party for some examples of places it's worked.
So no-one can have an original idea any more? How is anyone meant to try anything new?
Give us a policy that youwant to discuss and we can demonstrate where it works well. Given that the last labour manifesto was mainstream european social democratic policies this would be very easy to do
so which policy do yo want to discuss. Actual policy not tory scaremongering
Here is a link to the manifesto
So no-one can have an original idea any more? How is anyone meant to try anything new?
It's not new. As DrJ notes, all countries invest state money. The question is how much, what are the benefits, and what are the problems. Right wingers seem to be very fond of state spending on the military, for example. FDR spent more than had ever been thought possible on infrastructure back in the 1930s...
But I ask again, how do people think money is created?
So no-one can have an original idea any more?
We can if we want.
How is anyone meant to try anything new?
Convince voters first.
It's not new. FDR spent more than had ever been thought possible on infrastructure back in the 1930s...
In which case wouldn't all the government economists in the world be aware of it and use it when they deemed appropriate?
[quote=outofbreath ]
Convince voters first.
i think labour are letting the current incumbents do that for them...
In which case wouldn't all the government economists in the world be aware of it and use it when they deemed appropriate?
How do you think money is created?
Convince voters first.
Opinion polls suggest they have. Which is why the angry tories are quite scared.
i think labour are letting the current incumbents do that for them...
True, but quite a depressing fact.
Opinion polls suggest they have. Which is why the angry tories are quite scared.
Or will angry tories be delighted to hand over and let Labour take the [s]credit[/s]blame for the events that will happen in the next couple of years.
In which case wouldn't all the government economists in the world be aware of it and use it when they deemed appropriate?
Economists. Hmmm. Not a great track record of predicting the future I'm afraid 🙁 Nor even, as our Greek friend observes, a very good record of understanding the past 🙂
so OOB are you saying whatever happens the tories have won? Seems logical there, call an early election, propose bad police end a majority - all a cunning stunt to ease out of the blame for brexit?
Economists. Hmmm. Not a great track record of predicting the future I'm afraid
I think that the people of this country have had enough of experts with organisations from acronyms saying that they know what is best and getting it consistently wrong, because these people are the same ones who got consistently wrong.
all a cunning stunt to ease out of the blame for brexit?
Spoonerism?
so OOB are you saying whatever happens the tories have won?
Nope, I'm saying:
Or will angry tories be delighted to hand over and let Labour take the [s]credit[/s]blame for the events that will happen in the next couple of years.
In which case wouldn't all the government economists in the world be aware of it and use it when they deemed appropriate?
Maybe they couldn't convince voters?
Maybe voters don't know a good idea if they see it? (see Brexit)
Maybe politicians are Tory and don't want governments to spend money?
In which case wouldn't all the government economists in the world be aware of it and use it when they deemed appropriate?
Maybe they couldn't convince voters?
Maybe voters don't know a good idea if they see it? (see Brexit)
Maybe politicians are Tory and don't want governments to spend money?
Shame Emily Thornberry forgot to mention all of that. 🙁
TurnerGuy - MemberCorbyn walked past empty, unreserved seats, didn't he? It was just a photo op as he courts publicity
[URL= http://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/traingate-cctv-virgin-trains-jeremy-corbyn_uk_59a00509e4b0821444c29596 ]Maybe not[/url]
Which is why the angry tories are quite scared.
So angry now instead of nasty ? IME lefties get a lot more angry than the tories.
IME lefties get a lot more angry than the tories.
You only say that because you haven't been on the wrong end of one of hurty's special sneers 🙂
Maybe not
but he still failed to buy seat reservations though, didn't he?
If I am lucky I get to sit on the floor during the week whilst commuting, certainly not with as much space as he has there.
Those services get packed but it's not really the privatised rail services fault, is it - if the infrastructure was there they would run more services - that's the responsibility of a public body already.
Those services get packed but it's not really the privatised rail services fault, is it - if the infrastructure was there they would run more services - that's the responsibility of a public body already.
Quite right. Railtrack did an excellent job managing the infrastructure.
if the infrastructure was there they would run more services - that's the responsibility of a public body already.
?
Network rail managed the infrastructure
Tories quietly privatised it 3 years ago after it racked up loads of debt and had been run into the ground by the private sector
Much easier to cream off subsidies for the rail providers than the infrastructure management
Those services get packed but it's not really the privatised rail services fault, is it - if the infrastructure was there they would run more services - that's the responsibility of a public body already.
I'm also not sure everyone is convinced by the argument that Chris Grayling under the watchful eye of Teresa May has a remarkable talent for making train services great.
Well he certainly did a good job on prisons 😳
You only say that because you haven't been on the wrong end of one of hurty's special sneers
He sneers.... Is this a tag word that signals members to the call? 😉
When corbyn comes to power (shudders) it will finally put his policies to he’d for ever either (1) most likely they will not he implemented - but the manifesto was so vacuous that this would not be difficult or (2) the effects would speak for themselves.
Divvying up a smaller pie badly is not a recipe for success.
So which ideas don't you like specifically, thm? (genuine question not baiting)
So has anyone named a specific policy of corbyns yet? One from the manifesto I linked to?
Am I too late to call Chris Failing Grayling a ****?
members
Yep! The whole posse!! Behind you!!! Boo!!!!
Documentary on tonight:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b09gtywy/labour-the-summer-that-changed-everything
Watched it. Really interesting to see the election and the aftermath from the inside. Quite sad watching Steven Kinnock near the end making the case that Momentum need him, and he needs Momentum. Then the interviewer asked if Momentum saw it that way...
In a fit of enthusiasm I watched John MacDonnall on Andrew Marr. Starts at 19:00:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b09glv4q/the-andrew-marr-show-19112017
Have to agree Kinnock came across a right plonker at the end!
[quote=molgrips ]So which ideas don't you like specifically, thm? (genuine question not baiting)
all the ones that are not right wing free market tory ones DUH
Jezzer seems to be very quiet of late, one could be forgiven for thinking he's riding an easy wave and watching what happens.
So an allegation that some / none of corbyns policies have ever been tried anywhere but when asked for specific policies so we can have a proper discussion a total refusal to say which ones.
I think we can draw conclusions from the silence
So an allegation that some / none of corbyns policies have ever been tried anywhere but when asked for specific policies so we can have a proper discussion a total refusal to say which ones.
Ok, the policy I choose is Brexit.
Where's it been tried and been successful? Not with an economically small and simple country but with a substantial and complex economy.
Over to you.
Ok, the policy I choose is Brexit.
Brexit is not a policy. Try again.
TJ I would agree (partially) that its not Labour’s publically stated intention to run a huge budget deficit ... but they will. Their tax raising measures will bring in much less money than budgeted, their spending plans will cost much more. Their “investment” will have to be properly counted as debt and it won’t bring the economic boost they claim.
Policies (I say policies as some of this Corbyn just made up on the spot with no idea of the cost)
Renationalisation (including attempting to significantly under compensate shareholders, eg your pension fund - thats almost cwetainly illegal and would be challenged in the courts)
£500bn into a government bank (£250bn of that will be borrowed from private sector but will require a govt guaranty)
Significant increases in public sector wages
Abolishing student loans and “sorting” existing student debt
Significant increases in welfare payments
All of this to be delivered and much more by a Marxist Chancellor well aware he needs to prepare for a run on the £ and capital flight
BTW on Brexit - no freedom of movement, commitment to honour referendum leave the EU (both in manifesto) plus leaving the customs union and THE single market (Labour voted last night to oppose an EU withdrawl bill amendment to stay in the customs union)
ambalaya - Member
TJ I would agree (partially) that its not Labour’s publically stated intention to run a huge budget deficit ... but
Tories are going to spend billions on brexit that will bugger the economy...
Marxist
Yawn. Change the record, will ya?
TJ I would agree (partially) that its not Labour’s publically stated intention to run a huge budget deficit ... but they will.
Your opinion Vs a carefully costed piece of work from Labour
Jamba how are the tories getting on with their promise to eliminate the deficit and reduce national debt? I presume they'll start doing this before brexit happens?
Here's a clue...
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Just watched last night's doc.
Thought it was odd that he didn't follow any aspect of Momentum until after the election.
I wasn't aware of the stuff surrounding Sarah Champion immediately after the election. I'll look it up further.
Quite a lot to take in. Lucy Powell looked like she might have been receptive to a collaboration but was immediately squeezed out (or at least that's how it was portrayed) due to her past allegiances.
Kinnock and Powell chose their side, and they lost. That’s how it works. Now they want to be respected?
That scene where Kinnock was being told off by his wife was hilarious. He looked like Hugh Abbott in the thick of it. The hubris of these people is shocking. Leadership material my arse.
Thought it was odd that he didn't follow any aspect of Momentum until after the election.
They covered angry Momentum Volunteers in Wales before the election, but yeah, there wasn't much.
I wasn't aware of the stuff surrounding Sarah Champion immediately after the election. I'll look it up further.
I remember hearing her comments on the Radio and thinking she was crazy to say it and I thought she was right to resign. On last night's show she totally justified her decision AFAIC. I hadn't heard about the Sun article, but the Sun readership is exactly the readership Labour need to address. There's no votes in preaching to the converted.
Jamba how are the tories getting on with their promise to eliminate the deficit and reduce national debt? I presume they'll start doing this before brexit happens?
Here's a clue...
Yeah, Tories are deffo borrowing way too much. So if Corbynomics is right GDP should be rapidly increasing fueled by all the spending and thus 'reducing' borrowing. Is it?
Kinnock and Powell chose their side, and they lost.
To be fair they're well aware of that, they don't dispute it. That's why the PLP made such desperate attempts to unseat Corbyn.
OOB - depends on what you are spending the money on IIRC
OOB - depends on what you are spending the money on IIRC
Terrific, in which case perhaps you could answer the QT guy's question to Emily Thornberry and offer an example of a Country that's spent the money on the right stuff and succeeded.
Germany would be the best example. Continued with printing money after the UK went to austerity. Result - economic growth far outstripping the UKs
Needless to say that neither the above is true.
Germany underperformed UK for sustained period 2012-16 but is growing faster now. DIfferent cycles.
Germany running record budget surpluses, UK running large deficits.
Merkel committed to balanced budgets too.
What next? Labour's plans fully costed?
Germany would be the best example. Continued with printing money after the UK went to austerity. Result - economic growth far outstripping the UKs
Germany!? German is pretty much the gold standard of European Neo-Liberal economics. They even force it on the likes of Spain and Greece.
You can't just point at any successful country and say "That was Corbynomics!".
C'mon try harder.
Germany continued to spend money on capital projects and infrastructure which led to growth. Pretty much my understanding of what Corbyn intends. the tories cut spending leading to less growth thus Germany outperformed the UK
Its basic Keynes economics
So if Corbynomics is right GDP should be rapidly increasing fueled by all the spending and thus 'reducing' borrowing. Is it?
1. WTF is Corbynomics?
2. Is that what you claim the tories are now doing?
In answer to 1 It looks like pretty standard Keynesiasm to me. If you borrow/spend to invest to create jobs and maintain full employment and livable wages it drives demand. If instead you cut investment/spending you end up spending the same to plug the gap created by decreasing tax receipts and increasing welfare budgets, which is what the tories are now doing*
*Doesn't even take into account brexit, which we've barely started paying for.
*Waits for THM to come along with a patronising comment about how I'm not an economics professor*
Continued with printing money after the UK went to austerity. Result - economic growth far outstripping the UKs
nothing to do with everybody buying German goods then or Germany taking in as many immigrants as it can ?
the percentages are so low you can't draw a conclusion like that from them, or rather only a rabid leftie can...
https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/gdp-growth
https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp-growth
Politics aside how do we improve the UK for non London non rich people?
Genuine question
Its basic Keynes economics
It looks like pretty standard Keynesiasm to me
In which case the treasuries of the world will be well aware of it, and already using it as appropriate.
Is that what you claim the tories are now doing?
I think almost all EU govts are, and they all started to do it about the same time. Once they ran out of room on the monetary side, as much fiscal as they could get away with was the only tool they had left.
The question was which country spent money for greater growth. Germany is a classic example. NOw of course the total situatioin was different but it is beyond doubt that germany kept on spending the money and got greater growth
As I said - basic Keynes.
Germany would be the best example. Continued with printing money after the UK went to austerity. Result - economic growth far outstripping the UKs
Nothing to do with the failing EU economies depressing the value of the Euro helping Germany's balance of trade?
daz correct but don't worry Keynes is probably the most widely misused/abused economists ever, so you are not alone. What people generally call Keynsian policies are generally a million miles from what he actually advocated. He must be turning in his grave. Poor guy
Errm - the pound fell more than the euro so that one won't wash
Angela Merkel 2009
"The crisis did not take place because we were spending too little but because we were spending too much to create growth that was not sustainable."
And don't forget the Germans were to ones who were insisting that S European economies implemented austerity (real austerity not the fake UK version) at exactly the wrong times, creating economic destruction in those countries.
Still you chose who you want to believe....
As I said - basic Keynes.
John MacDonnel's going to look like a right muppet if/when he's in power and he turns up to his first meeting with the Treasury Civil Service economists and his grand plan is something taught at A Level.
Their response is gonna be: "Don't you think we already thought of that?"
This gives Angela Merkel’s government — which has been following tight fiscal policies and limiting spending
https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2017/nov/21/uk-borrowing-deficit-public-finances-hammond-bank-of-england-business-live
This is what the tories policies have done.
Interesting all this stuff about Keynesian economics and whether it's a workable solution, but I actually think the labour party are thinking far more radically. [url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/12/doughnut-growth-economics-book-economic-model ]Something along the lines of this[/url]. Don't ask me if it'll work, but a new solution that is neither 20th century Keynesianism or 20th century neo-liberalism is required, and the labour party are at least exploring the possibilities.
@daz pretty well, they have halved the deficit. That's incredibly difficult (and painful) to do. Overspending is easy, reigning it in is hard
@mike the Tories aren't spending anything on Brexit (**), May has offered to pay into the EU budget for a further two years in return for a transition period and future free trade deal.[b] No deal no money[/b]. As to the various sums thrown around (€40bn, €60bn, €100bn) they just show the [b]real and hidden[/b] cost of being an EU member, deliberately underfunded pensions, lots of "development loans" which never get repaid etc. All adds up to way more than the €363m per week in the official ONS data.
Will be interesting what numbers the OBR/HMT put into the budget on Wednesday, what amounts if any post April 2019
(**) we have and will spend some amounts on implementing Brexit, customs etc but we'll get that back in tariffs as we'll no longer have to send 80% of what we collect to Brussels.