Jeremy Corbyn

I will wager he has voted less times against the party than you have said it

I would take that bet but I know you are a not a betting man. 500 odd times and I have posted that statement far less times than that.

@Alex thats a fair point, I read the comment in the Indy and at BBC and have watched coverage at BBC, Sky, Indy but the actual footage of that was not included

So if this new gentler brand of politics the Beardy Messiah is now advocating had always been around then the Glorious Leader himself would have been deselected about 28 years ago?

Priceless! 😆

@Alex - so what he said was due fo boundary changes due to take effect in 2020 if he is leader all Labour MPs will face reselection. Certainly sounds like a threat to me

Junky and ernie given the left leaning bias on STW where are all the Labour supporters chipping in to this thread ?

kinder gentler politics

Well that's just a complete contradiction of what he stands for. He has a vested interest in perpetuating the persitent ideology of division, prejudice, inequality and hate. Think about it. The moment he comes out and says 'we've achieved equality' his whole reason for existence disappears.

Personally I think we are as equal as we will ever be, which is to say that there is a lot of inequality around but it's equal in all directions.

Also love the way he's still playing with the myth that the gender pay gap is 20%. It's not and hasn't been for some time.

geetee1972 - Member

Also love the way he's still playing with the myth that the gender pay gap is 20%. It's not and hasn't been for some time.

19.2%.
http://visual.ons.gov.uk/what-is-the-gender-pay-gap/

It's amazing what you can pack into a day if you don't waste it on here. 🙂

Let's have a look what the usual suspects have posted; ah, shite, shite and more shite. So no change there then. 😆

"He has a vested interest in perpetuating the persitent ideology of division, prejudice, inequality and hate"

Which of course is why he's spent his entire political career campaigning for the opposite. 😕

"Think about it"

Clearly, you haven't.

"Junky and ernie given the left leaning bias on STW"

😆

This forum has anything but a 'left leaning bias'.

Jambalaya; what colour is a red London bus?

He has a vested interest in perpetuating the persitent ideology of division, prejudice, inequality and hate.

Surely this is entirely consistent with his beliefs though - maintaining class consciousness is an objective necessity in order to create the conditions for socialist revolution and fuel a popular uprising against the bourgeoisie.

"Surely this is entirely consistent with his beliefs though - maintaining class consciousness is an objective necessity in order to create the conditions for socialist revolution and fuel a popular uprising against the bourgeoisie."

I don't think you quite understood the statement you are responding to. 😆

Or much else, for that matter.

Police have advised Angela Eagle they cannot gauranty to keep her safe at her constituency meetings so she has cancelled them. Kinder gentler politics.

On the membershio it has been reprted that 40,000 of ten180,000 applications have been rejected and also that numerous groups have been offering to lend (give ?) people the £25 to register. Naughty naughty and against the rules. Buying votes and influence anyone ?

This forum has anything but a 'left leaning bias'.

Massively so 3:1 in terms of regular posters on chat/political threads ?

Police have advised Angela Eagle they cannot gauranty to keep her safe at her constituency meetings so she has cancelled them. Kinder gentler politics.

Well this interesting. The latest YouGov poll gives the Tories an 11 percent lead over Labour.

This is surprisingly low imo given that firstly, 80 percent of Labour MPs have very publicly attacked the Labour leader - a completely unprecedented move in UK Parliamentary history.

And secondly, the new Tory leader is still very much enjoying the start of the "honeymoon period" which all new leaders/prime minsters enjoy - even Gordon Brown enjoyed a honeymoon period when he first became prime minister, which hugely benefited the Labour Party's standing in opinion polls.

I am honestly and genuinely surprised.

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tories-poll-lead-yougov-labour-theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn-first-pmqs-thatcher-a7146526.html ]Tories open 11-point poll lead over Labour as assured Theresa May attacks Jeremy Corbyn in first PMQs[/url]

But what makes this YouGov poll particularly noteworthy is that in 2008, when the Labour Party was firmly united behind Gordon Brown, a YouGov poll gave the Tories a 20 percent lead over Labour.

[url= http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2008/08/09/another-20-point-lead-for-cameron/ ]The Tory YouGov lead drops to 20%[/url]

[i][b]"The main conclusion from the poll is that we have got a little bit closer to the general election and still there is no major change in Labour’s position. The time is ticking by and Labour is still facing disaster."[/i][/b]

Less than 2 years later in the general election of 2010 the Tory lead over Labour had collapsed to 7 percent, and they were unable to form a government on their own.

Now unlike jambalaya I don't know what the general election result in 4 years time will be, but I do know that the Labour Party has been in a worse electoral situation than it is now, despite all the self-inflected damage. And I also know that they have recovered remarkably well, so who knows? Apart from jambalaya and all the other Tories/right-wingers of course.

ernie_lynch - Member
Well this interesting.

So it isn't a

a completely pointless thread

😐

This is surprisingly low imo given that firstly, 80 percent of Labour MPs have very publicly attacked the Labour leader - a completely unprecedented move in UK Parliamentary history.

And secondly, the new Tory leader is still very much enjoying the start of the "honeymoon period" which all new leaders/prime minsters enjoy - even Gordon Brown enjoyed a honeymoon period when he first became prime minister, which hugely benefited the Labour Party's standing in opinion polls.

I am honestly and genuinely surprised.

[IMG] [/IMG]

Yes Flashheart. We are living in very politically interesting times, not just here but across the western world.

The topic of this thread reflects this and it could be the basis for an interesting debate.

Unfortunately the thread has been rendered pointless by the usual petty point-scorers who would rather post silly pictures and rant instead of engaging in intelligent debate.

So yes, the latest opinion poll is indeed "interesting", but ninfan's usual smartarse response, as typified above, isn't particularly interesting. Although I'm sure that he feels very pleased with himself.

[quote=jambalaya ]Junky and ernie given the left leaning bias on STW where are all the Labour supporters chipping in to this thread ?

Drowned out by the usual RW folk on here?
Perhaps they have something better to do than debating the labour party with a rag tackle bunch of rampant RW haterz?

Its just you saying you dislike Corbyn - I have got that point

TBH if he started shittign gold blocks you would complain they were too small or that the blocks were racist or bullying or some such nonsense

Instead I will discuss it with other labour party members ad vote as I see fit.
What you and other RW wont enter my mind for a second as I am sure you wont think of me when you vote tory.

TBH if he started shittign gold blocks

I'd vote for him if he could do that.

Edit: I'd settle for a tax cut. I'd happily do without trident if it's a decent one.

Ernie - You're just in s strop because I picked holes in your left-wing hero worship of Che by pointing out that his actions couldn't be further from the Marxist-Leninist principled candle that you hold for him if he tried 😆

Edit - Actually, I withdraw that, maybe you're just frustrated with yourself because you're embarrassed about someone showing you up on an issue of left-wing ideology.

[img] [/img]

Re gender pay gap

Has anyone actually read the ONS report?

The key % in there is [b]comparable[/b] pay - not the overall gap - and this % is half of what Northwind has quoted

Inevitably it is the headline that those who can't be bothered to read (ie most journos) always quote

Not that I'm defending the fact that there is a difference - there should be a rate for the role; the gender etc of the job holder is irrelevant

Ernie - You're just in s strop because I picked holes in .....

Yes I'm in a terrible strop.........I hate it when you pick holes

lol

Has anyone actually read the ONS report?

I have. That's why I know that the true like for like gap is around 9% and this does not account for the fact that men change jobs once every three years whereas for women it's once every five years. That frequency of change can readily account for a 9% difference since the only time you ever have any reaslistic prospect for increasing your salary (by more than just RPI) is when you chance jobs.

You can typicall expect to add about 10% when you change jobs in a blue collar position so within a ten year window, there's your so called 'gender pay gap'.

The figure of 20% is the difference in actual earnings and reflects many other factors that are largely down to personal choice.

On the membershio it has been reprted that 40,000 of ten180,000 applications have been rejected and also that numerous groups have been offering to lend (give ?) people the £25 to register. Naughty naughty and against the rules. Buying votes and influence anyone ?

LOL! Not voting this time the Jamby?

Probably all Tories that have been rejected FFS

he is funny isnt he
Openly said he voted and then moaning that they are now blocking folk like him voting

Whichever reality occurs it once that he will slag off. as will al the RW on here. In no sense is this a debate.

That frequency of change can readily account for a 9% difference

Its quite bizarre that after 45 years we still dont have equal pay

The figure of 20% is the difference in actual earnings and reflects many other factors that are largely down to personal choice.

theaccountant - Member

The key % in there is comparable pay - not the overall gap - and this % is half of what Northwind has quoted

Nope. The 9.4% is comparing full time with full time, and yes that does give you a direct comparison of that exact circumstance, but it doesn't give a true representation of real world pay conditions because it's a direct comparison of only a limited subset of employees.

There are various useful statistics you can look at in this but the point is, it's obviously untrue to say that the 20% figure Corbyn refers to is a myth.

Probably all Tories that have been rejected FFS

I very much doubt that jambalaya's claim of 40,000 rejections is true.

The registration was a two day window with a deadline of 5pm yesterday. It is unlikely, in the extreme, that they have managed to vet 40,000 (all of them rejected) out of the 180,000 total in just one day. Vetting includes making a personal phone call to each individual.

[i]
"The huge number of registered supporters comes despite the NEC ruling the fee should be more than eight times higher than 2015, when it cost just £3.

Around 105,000 registered supporters voted in 2015, though thousands more were excluded by the party’s vetting procedures. This time 183,541 supporters signed up in a two-day window, which last year was several weeks.

Labour party headquarters had hoped to avoid the administration burden of vetting hundreds of thousands of new members and supporters, but will have a month to do so before ballot papers are sent out in late August."[/i]

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/20/labour-stops-crowd-funding-bid-to-help-supporters-pay-for-vote ]Labour signs up more than 180,000 supporters to vote in leadership contest[/url]

just occasionally have a peek

#croydondefence*

*IIRC, you are somewhere around Croydon, Ernest. My apologies if you're not. In fact, my congratulations if you're not.

One might also like to ask WHY men are able to change jobs more frequently?

I think men are more willing to take risks and women value security more. Men are also more aggressive negotiators for the same reason, another reason why you still see a persistent pay difference despite the legislation and changing attitudes.

The 9.4% is comparing full time with full time, and yes that does give you a direct comparison of that exact circumstance, but it doesn't give a true representation of real world pay conditions because it's a direct comparison of only a limited subset of employees.

I think you're making our argument for us. No one is saying that if you take the set of all men and all women in work and do the math the difference isn't 20% because it is.

The point is, that difference does NOT represent discrimination or disadvantage. It represents choice.

But I tell you what, if you want to fix the persistent issue of there being this difference in earnings, then you also need to fix the pernicious and highly discriminatory situation we have in parenting roles and how fathers are disadvantaged by the system.

Until you have parity in the importance we give to BOTH parents in the fammily/parenting roles, you aren't going to solve that problem (and you can thank the likes of Hariet Harman for that).

Consider this. Now that fathers can take up to six months of shared parenting leave (shared with their partner) why can't they also get the same compensation package that their female colleages get.

A woman gets nine months paid maternity leave say from her employer but the men don't get that. It's clearly discrimination.

CaptainFlashheart - Member

just occasionally have a peek

Yes I've had several peeks today, well done for noticing.

Obviously this bothers you, unfortunately I might start posting more on this thread. Or I might not.

Anyway. Enough about me.......what about you ? Got anything constructive to say ? Don't be shy.

Got anything constructive to say ?

No. Thanks for asking, though.

geetee1972 - Member

A woman gets nine months paid maternity leave say from her employer but the men don't get that. It's clearly discrimination.

Of course it is. But since women get the shitty end of the stick in many other ways, it's not where you start. On average, a man could take that 9 months unpaid, and more than make up the difference over his career just because of the gender pay gap. In fact, he'll have done so after about 7 years.

Responding to commentary on the gender pay gap with "but us poor men are discriminated against too!" is specious at best, and a very played out card. Who will defend the poor middle class wasp!

This thread feels as warm and cost as a shadow cabinet meeting only with more people in it....

No.

Fair enough.

Here's some more from me :

Yesterday Owen Smith declared that under Corbyn the Labour Party was, quote :

[b] [i]"teetering on the brink of extinction"[/i][/b]

Which I'm sure you'll agree sounds rather dramatic.

Specially when you consider that under Corbyn Labour Party membership has now risen to over half a million - the highest in modern times. And which makes the Labour Party today by far and away the largest political party in the UK.

If Owen Smith does indeed become Labour Party leader unrestrained hyperbole here we come.

I hope they have better jokes in the shadow cabinet.
Pretty sure there will be fewer right wing Tories moaning 😉

Men are also more aggressive negotiators for the same reason, another reason why you still see a persistent pay difference despite the legislation and changing attitudes.

that difference does NOT represent discrimination or disadvantage. It represents choice

Of course it is. But since women get the shitty end of the stick in many other ways, it's not where you start. On average, a man could take that 9 months unpaid, and more than make up the difference over his career just because of the gender pay gap. In fact, he'll have done so after about 7 years.

It's all part of the same problem though. You can't fix one without the other and I think we should fix both. As for the shitty end of the stick a) I know plenty of men who've had the shitty end of the stick at work, this is not something that's defined by gender and the world was never ruled by 'men', it was only ever ruled by 'some men'. And b) if you want to know what the shitty end of a stick feels like ask any father whose been denied access to his kids and has subsequently lost the best part of life as a result. Go on. Ask. There are plenty of them out there.

You see that's the problem with the far left. It's full of hypocrisy. You only see the prejudice and the discrimination you want to see.

tmh kerching 😀

Ernie the 40,000 figure was on Sky earlier, no idea where they got that from. Also @captain 'twas they who reported Angela Eagle had cancelled her open surgeries

Firstly no doubt women earn less than men in many professions, there are some legitimate reasons like career breaks for kids means they return with less experience, also more women in part-time work and/or doing less hours as they are primary carer for kids. Women more often secondary earners and thus less focused on progression. As noted above men are generally more aggressive in switching jobs and thus getting payrises. There is of course gender inequality too where like for like women are paid less.

It's the job, the duty, the responsibility of every MP to get behind the party

Hmmmm........do as I say, not as I do.....

Gender inequality is an important issue, it is however not one with which you can lead a general election campaign with. Its's worth a few days of campaign airtime but that's about it. A GE will be won on big picture issues like the nhs, economy and taxation.

you already do THM you already do

Ernie the 40,000 figure was on Sky earlier, no idea where they got that from.

No, nor have I. It suggests that they have made personal phone calls and vetted presumably the majority of 180,000 applications, in just 24 hours (working through the night I guess) despite having a month to do so.

I would take it with a pinch of salt. Like most things you hear relating to Corbyn.

I am not following this thread in any detail, I just occasionally have a peek to make sure that it's still a completely pointless thread packed[b] people who have a vote in the coming leadership election[/b] [s]Tory voters[/s] giving their opinions on what's best for the Labour Party, and that binners is still ranting endlessly about middle-class southerners [s]with special dietary needs[/s][b]who are unable to access a Gregg's bakery[/b], or whatever it is that upsets a salt-of-the-earth working-class northerner like him

FIFY 😉

jambalaya - Member

Gender inequality is an important issue, it is however not one with which you can lead a general election campaign with.

Well that's useful to know.

I would take it with a pinch of salt. Like most things you hear relating to Corbyn.

Like Smith-espue hyperbolic talk of coups ? Sounds rather dramatic.

Gender inequality is an important issue, it is however not one with which you can lead a general election campaign with.

Especially when he won't publish the numbers for his own office or the wider party

Gender equality? Anyone thought of having a female leader?

geetee1972 - Member

You see that's the problem with the far left. It's full of hypocrisy. You only see the prejudice and the discrimination you want to see.

Absolute pish. I see the discrimination perfectly well, and I already said so in my last post, so pretending otherwise just makes you look stupid.

But we reality is, there are a lot of social injustices out there, and can't fix everything at once, so logic and common decency tell us to put most effort into the bigger issues and the people most disadvantaged. Throwing "But other people are disadvantaged too" at people trying to reduce discrimination is nothing but a diversion tactic. We can't stop all discrimination, so should we stop reducing any descrimination in the interests of fairness? Of course not. Are you [i]against[/i] narrowing the gender pay gap? I'd presume not. It just happens to be the stick you've grabbed in your desire to attack Corbyn.

Of course, this doesn't mean that you can't progress both. And ironically, Corbyn has actually proposed expanding paid paternity rights. But don't let that get in your way.

teamhurtmore - Member

Sounds rather dramatic.

You think so?

All the media, including the press, the TV, and the radio, think "attempted coup" is a rather apt description of what has occurred recently in the Labour Party.

Have you considered a strongly worded letter to various media outlets ?

I would sign it "Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" 💡

No, one only has to observe events in Turkey to realise what an absurd choice of word it is. Or should I say a rather dramatic choice of word.

Have you considered a sympathetic letter to the people of Turkey, letting them know that you know exactly how they feel? Do you think that they will see the parallel?

teamhurtmore - Member

Anyone thought of having a female leader?

Yes they did, but she pulled out of the contest.

I'm surprised you hadn't noticed.