Is the term ‘jungle drums’ racist?

What is the appropriate karma for an uppity black these days? Same as it was in the seventies?

It’s not about him being black..basically if someone of any colour snitches on a colleague of mine about something, without taking a reasonable amount of effort to resolve it without hr involvement I’d be thinking they were a bit of xxx, and probably not have much time for them thereafter.

Its not even close to constructive dismissal. Nowhere near. Not even in the same room

Tbf given the ops rather rash move of leaving then probably not. But we had a case whereby hr raised a grievance against an employee in face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, the employee won, employee then left as his position was untenable and won a case for constructive dismissal.

Admittedly it went through the whole process first. So you are probably correct..should have stuck around and fought the case the assessed options.

And yes..a union rep is your friend in these situations

Sorry to hear this OP. Rotten luck.

used a well known phrase to describe something, that’s it.

Well thanks to the glorious powers of the internet, the meaning of that phrase has now probably changed since a few days ago.

Only the actual racists out there ‘won’ today. They normally have a field day with this stuff.

He wasn’t a victim of racism though was he Edukator?

He felt he was a victim, he made a complaint as he is perfectly entitled to. Who am I to judge? Or you for that matter.

We have a few paragraphs to go on, the complainant has days, months or years of experience of the corporate culture of whichever FTSE company it is. The HR of that company too. They are far better placed to judge if a complaint should be taken seriously than us. With enough unreserved apologising and some union involvement the situation was maybe saveable; I’d have let it run, but then I’m quite happy eating humble pie.

Madame’s union membership costs 120e a year.

That’s quite different from your last very judgemental post where you asserted that the complainant had been a victim of racism. OP innocent of any wrongdoing until proven otherwise.

Either way it’s immaterial now any way

Fine, let’s take race out of it. You still haven’t said what an appropriate level of karma would be.

Shunning? Workplace ‘accident’? ‘Random’ attack in the street? ‘Random’ attack on his family?

I’m curious what level of cosmic revenge you think would be appropriate.

I can see youre all emotional and looking for an argument with these wild ramblings so i’m going to refrain from engaging further as you sound a bit of an unhinged tit.

He felt he was a victim

So not the same as your original assertion that he *was* a victim of racism then. I am ready for my sincere and unreserved apology😉

I’m saying that people of adult age, who haven’t developed the necessary skills to negotiate a world of other adults as an adult is not, ipso facto, an adult.

<mod>

Right, OK.

I’m going to close this thread for an hour or so, in order to allow posters time to calm the **** down. Please come back as grown-ups when I reopen it.

Love & kisses,

</mod>

I can see youre all emotional and looking for an argument with these wild ramblings so i’m going to refrain from engaging further as you sound a bit of an unhinged tit.

And I can see that see that we scratched your surface and a little bit of your prejudice came oozing out and now you want to pretend it never happened.

You say this has nothing to do with race. This situation would not been possible without race. There is no way to draw an equivalent to a conflict between two white people.

You wish for some harm to come to this black person but now you won’t say exactly what kind of harm.

He is going to come to some harm. Most likely it will take the form of a hostile work environment but who knows, maybe it’ll be worse. I’d like to know what level of harm you think will redress the balance.

If you really don’t want to say that’s fine. If you want to stick to innuendo then I can’t do anything about that but I think it’s very cowardly.

As far as me being an emotional unhinged tit goes, it’s a fair assessment. I feel emotions far more strongly than most but I also have a strong ability to see situations from points of view that aren’t entirely defined by my own experiences.

So if it comes to a choice between being an emotional unhinged tit and someone who would wish harm on another person who, let’s face it, is not going to be having an easy time of it in the future, I know which one I’d choose any day of the week.

Sounds like you made right choice Op. Good luck going forward.

So much misunderstanding of what racism is and making racist comments does not require any intent nor is intent inferred.

I normally agree with your points of view TJ, but not in this instance. As far as we know no racist comments were made ergo no racism intended or otherwise. OP used a well known phrase to describe something, that’s it. Doesn’t matter either way now any way as it is resolved. I feel sorry for all parties involved.

What we know is a borderline comment was made and it was taken as racist. I agree no racism was intended – thats clear. However it does not need intent to be racist. Unfortunately for some folk, racism is in the eye of the recipient. It has to be that way even tho we may not agree.

for what its worth I have also seen a black woman play the race card to avoid being disciplined and weak management allowing her to get away with it.

to me the comment is borderline, a complaint was made, it needed to be investigated, the normal objective process was followed but we do not know what the outcome of the disciplinary would be. My bet / guess is it would have been the very lowest level of sanction. Informal warning, counselling and a note on file ie ” be careful with your words in future please, have a think about it, end of story”

Instead the OP has resigned over what is clearly a very minor matter when staying and taking his lumps would have had no detriment to him whatsoever

I’m saying that people of adult age, who haven’t developed the necessary skills to negotiate a world of other adults as an adult is not, ipso facto, an adult.

Seems to me the complainant behaved in a perfectly adult manner. Using the correct procedures to report racism. What would you have had him do? One black can’t take on a racist surrounded by a lot of other white and potentially racist colleagues. Once the OP had rebuffed him with an attacking apology a formal complaint was the right way to deal with it.

I presume that the disciplinary investigation can and will continue in my absence and indeed I imagine it will need to in order to conclude the grievance that was raised. Would I be within my rights to be informed in writing of the outcome of this even though I’ve now left? I suppose it’s something should have thought about earlier, but there you go!

Seems to me the complainant behaved in a perfectly adult manner. Using the correct procedures to report racism. What would you have had him do? One black can’t take on a racist surrounded by a lot of other white and potentially racist colleagues. Once the OP had rebuffed him with an attacking apology a formal complaint was the right way to deal with it.

No doubt in your mind, then. Not only is the OP definitely a racist, but all his colleagues are potentially racist merely because of their skin colour? Incredible.

Well done OP.. that took a lot of guts to do that ..in my eyes you have done absolutely nothing wrong ..the world has gone mad ..
Good luck for the future ..

I’d just like to add something from the viewpoint of the complainant. If benv’s original response was not acceptable and conceived as on the aggressive side, he may have felt intimidated and unsafe to approach the matter in the normal chat>line manager>HR route.
Just something that has occurred to me since mulling it over last night.

You now have no rights Benv. You are no longer an employee. Depends on the type of investigation but I would expect there to be no further formal action at all and even if there was you would not be told about it.

there can be no disciplinary as the person being disciplined ( you) ( the investigatory part is over) is no longer an employee. There may be a general investigation in overall workplace culture but I doubt it.

anything told to you now would be a breach of confidentiality

No doubt in your mind, then. Not only is the OP definitely a racist, but all his colleagues are potentially racist merely because of their skin colour? Incredible.

Anyone can be racist whatever their ski colour. Everyone is a potential racist. I’ve worked in one place where everyone, as in everyone I met, was racist. Longbridge car plant 1978. It went from mild casual racism to dangerous attitudes. Check out the Bristol bus boycott in 1963. If you think it’s all different now then this thread is all the proof you need that it isn’t. And racism is a vote winner as Farrage and his Brexit posters so clearly demonstrate.

However it does not need intent to be racist. Unfortunately for some folk, racism is in the eye of the recipient. It has to be that way even tho we may not agree.

Interesting…

there can be no disciplinary as the person being disciplined ( you) ( the investigatory part is over) is no longer an employee.

As far as I knew, someone resigning during a disciplinary process can still have their record marked with the verdict as being dismissed if the process finished and showed that would have been outcome?

anything told to you now would be a breach of confidentiality

What about freedom of information or GDPR, isn’t there something where you have a right to information an organisation holds on you?

there can be no disciplinary as the person being disciplined ( you) ( the investigatory part is over) is no longer an employee.

Can the OP have an adverse reference against his name if that’s the case? Im pretty sure if you leave a role prior to being sacked then the reference can say ‘left during during ongoing disciplinary’. If that’s the case can the op not request the info under the terms of the gdpr. I didn’t think a company could hold information about you (adverse or not) without you having the right to access it?

One black can’t take on a racist surrounded by a lot of other white and potentially racist colleagues

How do you know all the other colleagues were white?

Its true. CFH. Same with sexism, bullying, sexual harassment.

That does not mean that all allegations have to be found to be true, what it does mean is people in the OPs position cannot state what is racist or not about that comment.

Imagine a workplace where blokish behaviour and coarse banter is the norm and a new recruit joins who is gay. the blokish banter may be normal to the rest of the workforce and without malice at all. But to that new recruit its highly offensive. In that case its clear.

Benv, I think you’ve done the right thing and hope it all works out for the best for you.
I see we still have the usual suspects using the term ‘racist’; wrong.
This is alleged or perceived racism; nothing proven.
As for references back to Longbridge in 1978 and the even earlier Bristol bus boycott, they are absolutely pointless other than being an attempt to justify one individual’s view – an individual who believes they are always right and invariably adopts a condescending attitude as evidenced by their posts to multiple threads.

If it relates to him then yes he may have rights under GDPR . But nothing about anyone else including what the complainant does or says

As far as I am aware ( and I am now reaching the end of my knowledge) there can be no further disciplinary action here and your file cannot be marked as dismissed as you were not dismissed.

Not at all sure on the “left during disciplinary” reference but I doubt it. the reference you get should simply be ” worked here from this date to this date”

Edit

A reference saying ” left during disciplinary action” would actually be factually correct

This is alleged or perceived racism; nothing proven.

Correct. the investigation and disciplinary could have exonerated the OP and might well have done

Unfortunately by quitting the process ends and he will never know

OP, I’m really sorry to hear of this outcome – but (assuming that your jobs market is healthy) I do think you have done the right thing.

My wife manages a fairly large department in the public sector, and has been through a few diciplinaries – it seems like even when the complaints are completely outrageous/obviously malicious, the subject of the investigations are always put through the wringer and come out the other side feeling utterly depressed, exhausted and bitter – even if you win, you lose.

Can’t blame you for feeling like you do, and applaud you for taking a positive step in an otherwise lose/lose situation for everyone involved – including the complainant.

Using the correct procedures to report racism

You’ve changed your mind again. First it was, then he felt it was, now you are back to it was. If you picked a position and stuck with it, this would be much easier.

What would you have had him do

If only there was some way you could know that.

he could have had a quiet word with the OP, explained what bothered him and why, OP could have explained his side and they could have parted friends, with a greater understanding of each other.

Note that doesn’t require him to do it in front of all the other white and potentially racist people. Hence quiet word. You, know, like an reasonable adult would. If someone steps on your foot do you make a formal complaint to the nearest gendarme, or do you ask them to get off your foot?

Everyone is a potential racist.

And murderer, and, gasp, cyclist. Thank god for the need to actually commit the act and the presumption of innocence.

Just to clarify, racism requires both prejudice and power. So not everyone can be a potential racist.

Now you owe the OP, his colleagues and everyone you worked with at Longbridge an apology for the statements you’ve made about them without any proof. Sincere and unambiguous I think you said.

the investigation and disciplinary could have exonerated the OP and might well have done

An almost textbook definition of a pyrrhic victory.

Best of luck OP ! I can’t imagine the stress levels this would cause, so sometimes better off out.

For all the digs on this thread about me and even my (now ex)colleagues being racist, I’m pretty sure (and I’m not going back to check) I’ve never even once mentioned anyones skin colour in this whole thread. I never once mentioned anyones skin colour during this mornings meeting either. Yet those making assertions seem a bit too comfortable themselves making generalisations based on it.

FYI at this mornings meeting, myself and umpteen colleagues were casually referred to by the investigator as being people that ‘can be seen as pale, male and stale by BAME people, especially young ones coming in to work for us’.

Now I’m far from an expert, but I have since discovered that the use of the acronym BAME has been called into question on numerous occasions as being unacceptable. More so by the looks of the results on google than my original comment that started this whole thing. I never knew this at the time or I would have raised it then and there, but I did raise the prospect that they were somewhat hypocritical by using the pale, male and stale trope. Apparently ‘that is different though, and you know it’. Disregarding the fact that we are male, and somewhat pale in complexion, which is contentious enough, to assume that somehow we were stale due to these two traits, and I presume also our ages, could be seen as particulary insulting given the fact that the contract win announced at the start of the week (the breaking news of which triggered this whole episode) was awarded largely in part due to the innovations that this same group of people had themselves came up with!

I honestly don’t know what chance anyone has these days, I find it completely bizarre.

Thanks to all expressing good wishes, I really appreciate it!

What an utterly silly thing to lose your job over. If the OP had just acknowledged that he’d offended someone in the first place and offered a genuine apology, it wouldn’t have come to this. (That doesn’t mean he’s a racist, it just means acknowledging that something he’d said inadvertently upset someone else and he was sorry they felt upset).

I have been thru disciplinary as a manager, as a witness, as the disciplined person and as a shop steward. Yes they are horrible – especially in the case where I was disciplined. I’d love to hear a better solution. At least you have a reasonably objective process.

Whats the alternative? Ignore all complaints and wrongdoing? Just dismiss anyone who is complained about or who makes a mistake?

In my case it was horrible to go thru when I was disciplined but I simply cannot see an alternative process. The process must seem fair when viewed from the outside and must be objective on the facts. Its simply unavoidable that its a horrible process to have to go thru

OMG, to use “Pale, male and stale” – WTF are they on.

If the OP had just acknowledged that he’d offended someone in the first place and offered a genuine apology, it wouldn’t have come to this.

I thought he had done in the OP but the complainant hadn’t accepted it and walked out?

This is a fascinating thread. What a cluster ****.

All the best for the future benv.

Good luck benv

Johndoh – no – he made a passive /aggressive non apology

On pale male and stale – the critical bit is “can be seen as” ie he is explaining why they have to take this seriously and pointing out why the comment could be seen as racist.

I’ve never even once mentioned anyones skin colour in this whole thread

So the complainant was a white African?

casually referred to by the investigator as being people that ‘can be seen as pale, male and stale by BAME people

That sounds racist to me, you should take offence and lodge a complaint with HR.

(and sexist and ageist)

What did we learn Palmer

Best of luck in this crazy world Benv

I was of course joking just then. ^^

But seriously, “jungle drums” referring to a method of communication is career-ending, but saying “pale, male and stale” by the adjudicator is fine?

They’re essentially saying, “you have to understand that the people complaining are racist and you have to make allowances for that.” Wow.

You’ve not done yourself any favours, but it sounds an awful lot like they want rid of you and you’ve given them an excuse.