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Had a call from my boss today, he's told me to be in the office tomorrow for a meeting with him and HR. Very unexpected, no warning and I'm not on consultation as far as I know.
So I'm wondering what it could be and narrowed it down to three options:
1. Redundancy - although out of my team of 5 I'm the only one being called in
2. Disciplinary - for what I don't know as I'm quite honest at work.
3. Role change - I know other teams are recruiting or trying to for similar roles as mine. I was offered one back in the summer but turned it down as it wasn't the right career direction for me and I was told it wouldn't affect my job security if I didn't.
Had a chat to my sister in law who used to work in HR (she was made redundant recently - joys of working for Corus) and she says it sounds like they want to make a change in my contract as I've been given no notice of disciplinary or Redundancy.
What does the STW collective wisdom think? Should I expect the worst and if it does what action can I take if I am made redundant?
If it was 2 then I think they have to give you the option of inviting someone along as a witness etc.
Public or Private Sector?
Go in but be prepared to be strong and say " I am unhappy at this meeting without notice - I need time to get a witness / facts / paperwork / whatever" as appropriate.
It is clearly your right to be accompanied if there is something serious going on.
Redundancy needs all sorts of hoops to be jumped thru - so I doubt its that.
take a collegue in wit you "just incase" its only fair that you have someone there as a witness which ever way it goes
Private sector.
Thinking about taking a witness in with me,
You mean Corus the steel company bought by Tata, Enough said.
Having had the unfortunate experince of just how bad, poorly informed and down right wrong companies can be I'd follow TJ's advice.
You have the right to someone being there - I was told that I didn't. The company tried to bully me and claimed they were doing 'nothing wrong or illegal'
They were indeed wrong, very wrong on many levels.
Take written notes of everything as well. This is very important. I managed to build up a 12 page report from mine with the CAB and 2 solicitors telling me it was very very good that I had them. They both knew straight away that they could wipe the floor with my employer from these notes.
Say as little as possible - if you do say anything then think very carefully before you do.
Ménage à trois?
A disciplinary can not be held / would not be valid without you being given the opportuninty to take a representative / witness with you.
Don't take anyone with you, then if they say its a disciplinary hearing they will legally have to stop the meeting and re-convene when you have a witness.
Taking a witness from the out set would certainly put my back up and will be likely to do the same to your boss.
take somebody else in with you as suggested you are allowed to do this. it will make you feel better, take notes down aswell
best of luck
No point taking a witness, if HR are there it will be above board - and if you unhappy at any time, stop the meeting.
And as for a witness, who'd want to go in with you - as in "who wants to put their head above the parapet?"
I've been a witness for a colleague in the past, he asked me as I'm known for my fairness. After the meeting I brokered a deal (on the side...) so he could leave with a decent package - I was a lot more senior and worked in 'corporate', whereas he was in one of the divisions.
You would hope so but unfortunately often not - look to Zedsdead experience for one and I know of many others.-b r - MemberNo point taking a witness, if HR are there it will be above board
and if you unhappy at any time, stop the meeting.
Yup - you need to be strong to do this but its your right
They've found you porn stash in the gents. Best start restocking up on Razzle and Escort.
Could be all sorts of things, might involve something a colleagues done.
As for redundancy, ignore the twaddle above about consultation etc., it depends on how many are being made redundant or in fact this could well be a consultation meeting along the lines of your position is at risk (which usually in my experience the fat lady has already sung).
As for the witness, I'm with the others, go in on the assumption it's nothing sinister, if it goes that way listen to what they say but commit to nothing and ask for a further hearing later. Taking notes is definitely a good idea.
If youre made redundant,its not you theyre makeing redundant its the job,and if it is they should have notified the union and the government,if there are above a certain number,there should also be consultation with the unions and staff,if they havent,you can argue,but theyll probably find some way around it.
Best wishes for tomorrow
How about talking to HR in advance and asking if it's the kind of meeting you might like to have someone in with you?
It could be that they are going to put you at risk in the meeting; as people point out, there are lots of hoops you have to jump through and this could be the first one.
My advice would be not to jump to conclusions however and certainly don't start getting all militant in the absence of any evidence that you need to. It's just going to antagonize the situation and not win you any favours.
The law are there to protect you after all so you don't have to start drawing battle lines in the sand just yet.
The redundancy (along with sacking) would be the worst but I don't understand why of the people in my team who all do the same job why I've been singled out for it and non of the others are being called in. Surely if its the job they are making redundant then they would somehow have to select us fairly... OK so I'm the one with the least work but I am also one of the most knowledgeable and have just had some independant research done with the customer i look after and they couldn't have spoken more highly of me.
Also, if they offered me a new role doing the same job but in a different sector and I decided against it, and if I know that that position hasn't been filled since surely they can't make me redundant because it is a role they need and I can do - or is it like double jeopardy...?
TJ - If I want to stop the meeting - on what grounds can I stop it? Is crying one of them??
Bushwhacked - you don't need any grounds really.
Somnething along the lines of "this is getting serious and I would like my union rep along / time to check facts / a witness present so I want to adjourn this meeting until a suitable time" Say nothing else and gt up and leave.
taking notes very obviously is also a good one - keeps 'em on their toes. When you go in sit down and take a pad of paer out and make it clear that you are takig a note.
Have a look on the ACAS and TUC sites for advice
Oh - JOIN A RUDDY UNION FFS
Blimey - not a member of a union at the moment!
Is there a Financial Service salesman union?
Bushwacked - they're hauling you in for lack of apostrophe-use-knowledge.
There is a union for anyone. They keep amalgamating and changing names. It'll be on the tuc website. Might be UNITE
JOIN A RUDDY UNION FFS
Tired Cliché No.76 🙂
No-one with a bit of wit needs to join a union.
Personally I would have asked long before 6 o'clock on the evening before what I was being asked in to discuss. Man or mouse?
I also wouldnt recommend going straight in with "witness". Think what a twit you'll feel when you find out its a discussion about a new employee appraisal method, or asking about your views on the coffee machine.
By all means, if its clear from the outset that it's serious, just say that you would have preferred to have had more notice of the nature of the discussion, listen to what they have to say, take notes as you see fit, and then say that you will defer your response until you have considered what they have said and arranged to have someone come with you next time.
Hardly needs the ACAS Legal team to hold your hand.
hope its nothing sinister bro!
you're an good guy 🙂
Stoner well said. There are so many laws now to prevent the abuse and exploitation of employees that unions were originally set up to address that they (the unions) now just serve to arbitrarily fight with any decision they don't agree with regardless of whether it's in the best interests of the company (and therefore by default the employees).
BA are a great example. I've had some experience of the unions at BA for both pilots and cabin crew and they are a bunch if winging numpties who think the world is out to get them and that they are owed a living.
Bushwacked just wait until tomorrow all youll do is listen toi strangers offering possibly good advice, and possibly putting ideas into your head.
Non of us know what youre going to expect tomorrow,so just wait and see,then discus it.
Lets us hope that HR dont read Singletrack.
+1 for Stoner's comments above.
And for this;
they (the unions) now just serve to arbitrarily fight with any decision they don't agree with regardless of whether it's in the best interests of the company (and therefore by default the employees).
Stoner - I've been pestering my boss most of the day for information but all he will say is that he has been told not to say anything and they have to follow the process. I'd love to know what I'm discussing but he won't budge no matter how hard I try.
Can I record the conversation??
Tony - Me too!!! Well stressful! God knows what it is but I know that looks like its [b]session on[/b] for tomorrow night whatever the outcome - I want to ruin myself after the day I had today!!! 😉
To put icing on the cake - Wife went to london on behalf of her boss since he couldn't make it. Got to the place in Chiswick, nowhere to park so parked outside, went into to see if they could suggest somewhere to park - comes out and being clamped - [b]£295 release fee[/b] and they kindly took my wife to the cash machine to take the money out of the joint account!!! To top it off - the person who arranged the meeting told her the wrong date so it was a wasted journery for everyone except the clampers!!!!
and...
...went to get a video to take my mind off things - £15 fine for late video a few weeks ago!!! does it end!!!
Stoner - I've been pestering my boss most of the day for information but all he will say is that he has been told not to say anything and they have to follow the process. I'd love to know what I'm discussing but he won't budge no matter how hard I try.
In which case if it is a disciplinary matter, he really should tell you, and if you feel really need to then I suppose you could take someone in.
Have you phoned HR and asked them? Asked them whether the matter directly effects you?
If its serious but doesn't require him to tell you about it, then it might possibly be an interview about the behaviour of a colleague.
#
Either way Id expect a substantial justification for not telling me the reason for the cloak and dagger shit, and if the reason wasn't good enough, and the matter did relate to me, Id let them say their piece and then walk out saying Id get back to them by the end of the day once Id considered what they'd said.
yes unions we dont try and protect our members interests , look after their T & C, fight to protect jobs, I mean look at the T & C we had at the start of the Industrial revolution, before unionisation. Recall how nice employers and rabid capitalism is. Sick pay, holidays, maternity leave, etc .... I mean what has organised unions ever done for us 🙄
PS
halfing your salary + holidays and getting you to work twice as long is therefore in the best interest of the company and you then?whether it's in the best interests of the company (and therefore by default the employees).
If it was your disciplinary you need the info in writing 5 days in advance so I doubt it is that.
Those who say there is no need for unions - have you seen how many folk on here ask for employment advice? All of them would benefit from a union. Every week or so there is someone. Without a union what do you do if unfairly dismissed as many folk are ? or victimised at work?
Unions can be a force for harm for sure - but you guys need to get real and get your heads out of your arses. Teh OP here clearly would benefit from union membership - the law only protects you if you know what it is and are prepared to use it. I have seen union representation make folks lives better many times over.
Stoner is right tho - no need to go in all guns blazing / witnessed up - but be prepared to stop the meeting if thats the road you need to go down
It could be anything but when I was called in for my redundancy meeting (basically a chance to put my case as to why I should stay) they gave me 24hrs written notice and everyone knew that redundancies were coming anyway.
AFAIK, for redundancy & disciplinary it has to be written notice and you need to be offered the chance to have a collegue/union rep in there as well.
On the other hand it could just be something like you may have witnessed a collegue bullying/harrassing someone and they want your point of view? Or some delicate company negotiation type thing? Anything like that, they don't want you talking to anyone else about the facts/rumours, they want a fresh outlook.
Look smart, turn up on time, be prepared to take notes and, as TJ says, if it starts getting heavy then request that the meeting be adjourned until you've had time to gather your thoughts/get a witness. There was a similar thread on here a while back about this kind of meeting, I think someone said [b]not[/b] to try to record it secretly, it can apparently end up with you in trouble for not informing them it's being recorded.
Good luck!
Teh OP here clearly would benefit from union membership
TJ - if it's a conversation about the strength of the Moccachino, then no, he wouldn't "clearly benefit from union membership".
Employment rules and information can be gained from all sorts of other sources from the ACAS website, to the CAB, friends, relatives or even, dare I say informal forums. None of which require paying [s]protection money[/s] a sub to [s]a hairy knuckled, time-served, self interested, union dinosaur like Bob Crow[/s] the union secretary.
😆 @ Stoner above!
right wing ideologues in hatred of unions shock
I do so hope you work 60 hr weeks with no holiday pay and sick pay, no protection from unfair dismissal etc Thats what you would be doing without unions and I am sure you would not want to benefit from unions in any way
I would go in and let them have there say then tell them you
are going to need time to think it over and then get legal
advice.
You must also bring in a witness has they have HR.
To me it sounds that they are doing it wrong has they
have not told you why first.
So say nothing let them make the mistakes and take a witness in
tell them you need to think things over and then get legal advice.
Good Luck
I do so hope you work 60 hr weeks with no holiday pay and sick pay, no protection from unfair dismissal etc
Dont worry , I do*. Im self employed. I've taken responsibility for my own personal welfare. Have you?
* I dont need to work 60hr weeks, but the rest stands.
right wing
Nope. We've covered this one many times TJ. Im not "right wing". Im a Free marketeer. My economic philosophy is not tied to any particular political ideology.
Grantway - there are perfectly good and fair reasons why they might not tell you - investigating a colleague for example
Stoner - are you postings o here not reflective of your views? cos your postings on here are clearly those of a right wing ideologue.
we disagree on Unions, and you think that automatically makes me right wing do you?
My point exactly. All the real issues that unions were set up to address have been err addressed. Their only real function now is to pick a fight. All of the advice you suggest unions can help give can be got by very easily by any number of other means such as citizens advice or the Internet.
Yes if we got rid of them and were no longer organised employers would not change a think would they.
I think my first question would have been what is the meeting about / agenda!
Bushwacked, which bit of Corus if you don't mind me asking? i get my release papers tomorrow from Tewkesbury/Shotton.
My experience of Unions hasn't been positive, like so many things, to much politics and point scoring goes on.
Djglover - that was my first, second...... twentieth questions
Mrmo - Tewkesbury (ironically where my boss lives 🙁 ).
Your wife could and should claim the parking fine back on expenses from her company. Its even tax allowable I think.
Good luck.
Some unions are better than others, but
1 You earn more in a unionised workplace
Average earnings are around 8% higher in unionised workplaces.
2 You get more annual leave in a unionised workplace
The average trade union member in the uk gets 29 days annual leave a year, compared with 23 days for
non-unionised workers.
3 You get better training
Workers in unionised workplaces are more likely to receive job-related training.
4 You get more maternity leave or parental leave
Unionised workplaces are 12% more likely to have parental policies in place, which are more generous than
the statutory minimum.
5 You're more likely to get equal pay for work of equal value
Workplaces with union recognition are 20% more likely to have an equal opportunities policy in place.
Despite equal pay legislation, women currently earn only 83p for every £1 earned by a man.
6 You're less likely to be sacked
Trade union members are only half as likely to be sacked as non-members.
7 You're less likely to be discriminated against in terms of age, disability, race or sex
Black and asian trade unionists earn 32% more than their non-unionised colleagues. Trade unions have
campaigned for tougher anti-discrimination laws, which are coming into effect in 2003, making it illegal to
discriminate on the grounds of religion or belief, marital or family status, sexual orientation or gender
reassignment.
8 You're less likely to be injured at work
All employers have a legal duty to provide a safe workplace and safe equipment and working methods, but
unionised workplaces have health and safety officers to make sure the employer sticks to their legal
obligations.
9 If you get injured at work, you'll get better compensation
Unions won over £321 million in legal compensation for people who were injured or became ill at work in
2000.
Based on my personal observations of UNITE, I'd steer clear.
Let us know what happens, and best of luck.
Looking on the bright side - maybe they want to promote you or offer you a better job ? 😀
You say you are a Financial Services Salesman and that you have done nothing wrong. I think I see the problem.
It's bonus discussion time, innit?
😉
You work in financial services, so youre responsible for the failure of the global ecconomy.
I dont think youre about to get a medal or a Jim will fix it badge.
Jim will fix it badge
going all RP on us project?
Mal thank you. You just illustrated my point perfectly. Not one of the things you list there highlights a benefit for the business that employs that unionised employee. Of course unions fight for their members to get better terms and conditions that's their job. But just because they negotiate those terms doesn't mean that they are making the company more eficient better run or more competitive, they only serve the interests of their members.
Oh and by the way I am in the top 7% of earners in the uk as are most ofmy friends and none of us have ever been in a union.
I said FS not banking!
He's spotted how brilliant you are and is going to offer you a great big pay rise and a go on his secretary.
Financial services and banking,like a paying for a prostitute,its a short term feeling of euphoria,then its all over and you wonder was it worth it.
Banking is like haveing a **** you leave a deposit with both.
Seriously best wishes for tomorrow.
Not one of the things you list there highlights a benefit for the business that employs that unionised employee.
Why exactly is that a problem? Businesses have no fiduciary responsibility to their employees, only the shareholders. Although I would agree that the best outcomes are where co-operation exists between both sides.
Not one of the things you list there highlights a benefit for the business that employs that unionised employee
Apart from having a healthier, safer, better trained, happier and therefore more productive workforce.
🙂
Hope tomorrow goes well.
samuri got closest to a possible option 4 - a promotion. Ok I know it's a long shot these days, but you never know...
Bushwacked, is her name sara? in which case how is she and the kid?
Im a Free marketeer. My economic philosophy is not tied to any particular political ideology.
I don't even know where to begin with this particular lollacaust but as long as you're happy believing it then that's cool.
I hope all is well for you Bushwacked and that witnesses weren't necessary.
Redundancy needs all sorts of hoops to be jumped thru - so I doubt its that.
Not so. They can simply march you off site and as long as they bung you more cash than you could hope to recover by winning a wrongful dismissal case its job done.
I don't even know where to begin with this particular lollacaust but as long as you're happy believing it then that's cool.
No, do go on, professor HeathenWoods. Im fascinated by your presumption about my politics.
Anyway, I hope Bushwacked is able to get to his workstation and fill us in...rather than have a bin-bag thrust in his paws and an escort off the premises.
uponthedowns - MemberRedundancy needs all sorts of hoops to be jumped thru - so I doubt its that.
Not so. They can simply march you off site and as long as they bung you more cash than you could hope to recover by winning a wrongful dismissal case its job done.
You think?,...when an employer is trying to save money?
No, do go on, professor HeathenWoods. Im fascinated by your presumption about my politics.
Hell no, you tell me how a "free marketeer" is unconnected to any form of political ideology and how markets and political contexts are unconnected.
I tell you what, just to start with, what does "free" refer to? Free from what? Butterflies? Aardvarks? Saturn? I'm certainly looking forward to what you the market should - in your view - be free from which has no connection to politics...
stoner I think it is reasonable to state that those who are right wing believe in a small state, personal responsibility, limited /no regulation and therefore free [b]from state intervention[/b] market economics.
Stoner is one of them anarcho-capitalists, iirc. Never mind the bollox, here's Adam Smith!
More importantly...OP...update ?
Really if you are can you start a thread on it PLEASE.
Just been reading the thread.
Must agree that taking contemporanious notes is vital. A court will accept those as evidence as long as they are writtne at the time.
However, not the main reason for posting, I was just pondering Stoners "freemarketeer" claim. Does that not go to the very essence of the political divide in this country? Surely thats what its all about... The Sod you Jacks (i'm all right) v Beer and Sandwiches brigade ?
Seems to me that Afganhistan is a free market in the truest sense, and I believe that it is known as feudalism.
You think?,...when an employer is trying to save money?
Yes Cynic-al. Its happened to me and a number of my colleagues. Even if they bung you a years salary they're still saving in the long run.
In all my posts on economics in here I've advocated allowing markets to settle prices except in those few areas where social good cannot be solved by market actors. What I abhor is interference in active markets by the government for the sake of it. It invariably induces the formation of black markets or moves transactions outside of the legislative area. If anyone thinks that a Tobin tax or 50% Income tax is going to fix anything they should look at the case studies. The politics of spite do not fix anything. I, paradoxically, believe in total taxation levels remaining roughly where they are, not lower, but they should be made much more progressive in nature (I wont go into it here, but you can read it on other posts Ive made).
I am not right wing. I believe in state schools, health care free at the point of delivery for all, nationalised transport infrastructure and unemployment benefit. All because in none of these areas does the market provide effective services to the individual. In these areas, though the market CAN provide cost effective service to the state. Private medical companies competing to sell services to the NHS that the NHS then administers to the user, if done correctly*, should provide the best value for money to the state.
I disklike unions because they distort the market under the cover of protection that they have in law. If that legal protection wasnt there, then the market would sort it out by firing the strikers in the interest of keeping the economic corporate entity alive and efficient even if smaller. Too many times the unions see the [b]scale[/b] of employment as a right or due and they strike for it. That kills companies by not allowing them to adapt to market changes.
None of that makes me neither right nor left wing.
* To date it hasnt particularly.
Unions
My workplace started a "No Smoking In The Grounds" policy and threatened disciplinary action against anyone smoking in the grounds, including in their own cars. Given the grounds are quite extensive, I asked my union rep what would be the response if either someone was attacked whilst leaving the grounds, or quoted fear of attack as a defence if disciplined (it's winter, it's dark, there have been muggings in the car parks). No answer. On any of the 3 times I asked.
Invited to the AGM - asked if there was an agenda available told "someone was coming to talk about pensions". Asked about an agenda and minutes. No reply. Asked about querying the safety of staff in the car parks. No reply.
Unions. Great value if keeping some lazy fekwit in a job is what it's all about.
Ah, Stoner will not be provoked, but here's some Thoreau. 😉
[i]"'That government is best which governs least'; and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe, 'That government is best which governs not at all'; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have."[/i]
Henry David Thoreau, [i]Civil Disobedience[/i].
Back on topic: hope it turns out ok
Surely thats what its all about... The Sod you Jacks (i'm all right) v Beer and Sandwiches brigade ?
that's what the politically tribal would want you to believe. Personal political/economic philosophy doesnt have to be all or nothing manifesto stuff you know.
comrade, Ive told you before about that Thoreau waffle - you'll go all feral on us and be living in a hut if you carry on 😉
A hut? Who needs that kind of [i]infrastructure[/i]? 😀
stoners politics thread hijack
what happened with the ops meeting has he had it yet
was it about too much time spent on this site?
pffft.
Just killing time 'till the OP gets back and fills us in.