I made the mistake of reading about the Torino-Nice Rally (organised by a certain James-O of this parish?) and now can’t get the bloody event out of my head! It has eclipsed my ambition to go road touring in Norway and is in danger of supplanting my plans to ride the Raid Pyrenean next year too.

Anyway, I’ve always over-packed for Scottish trips, e.g. carrying a tent all the way to Cape Wrath and only using it once in 12 days, and usually also finishing trips with food to spare. I also hear that people often don’t carry stoves now, I assume relying on shops and restaurants en-route for all meals. I like the idea of this as I’d more or less had my fill of bikepacking anyway so would want to travel as light as possible.

If you hoped to bivvy high (e.g. above 2000m) is this thick down sleeping bag territory, or could you make do with a 3 season synthetic and a liner or down jacket, all inside a bivvy bag?

This is all just hypothetical pipe-dreaming of course, given Covid-19 and the popularity of the T-R, I’d have to assume I mighten’t get in until 2022 or 2023 though… However amazingly I already seem to have wifely approval so I need to capitalise!

Can you just stay in refuges?

There’ll be a lot on the Bearbones forums, quite a few there have done the Torino-Nice.

Do a bit of research on low and high level bivvies and the relevant overnight temps but a clear night will be quite different from an overcast one. A decent sleeping mat would be essential. “3 season” means nowt, what are the EN13537 ratings? Also if the bag is small and you compress your down jacket it won’t add much warmth.

If it were me I’d probably take a stove but not a lot of food, just enough to cope if you missed a café or restaurant or make a morning brew.

Also, if you take a bag and it ended up being too warm, you can unzip a bit.
I would agree with whitestone re food/stove too. Take some emergency food and enough fuel to cook it or make a brew. If you unexpectedly get cold it’s an easy way to warm up. Being cold and 20 miles from any type of heat is not pleasant.
I can’t advise on specific sleeping bags though, I’m not you.

Thanks gents, valid points.

Think I need to find a better way to fill the next two or three years until the event than starting aimless threads on the forum!

Think I need to find a better way to fill the next two or three years until the event than starting aimless threads on the forum!

NO!

We need this to carry on and build in to an epic.

I’m not that fussed on bivvying, particularly in UK, but do fancy doing something a bit epic like this.

But I need a bit of inspiration, and I like to plan and mull lots (or is that procrastination)😂

mull lots (or is that procrastination)

Dunno, will have to think about it 😊

There’s a new piece on bikepacking.com about cooking kits – https://bikepacking.com/plan/five-camp-cooking-kits/

Having done it in 2018 and assuming the route will be very similar in future, I’d say the 6 day time schedule you’ve suggested is actually the trickiest from the “what to carry” point of view. Imo there’s 2 strategies, 1st is to get really fit and go for 4 1/2 days and travel light with no stove, basic bivvy,lightweight sleeping bag and mat, good waterproofs and a change of shorts. 2nd is to tour it over 7-8 days with warmer sleep kit and warm off bike clothes. Again IMO, the first day is the crux, if you’re going for plan 1, you really need to tick off the Colombano and Finestre climbs and get to the Refugio Assietta and have a booked bed there, it’s a very long day, 170km and 4,500m of climbing. The refugio is at 2000m and the temperature can be sub zero even in September, there’s a long high altitude section before and after it with few comfortable sleeping options if you’re travelling light. I managed it in 12 1/2 hours, arriving in the dark and I’m 60. If you crack this, the rest of the route falls into place nicely with low level villages appearing towards the end of each day. I chose the “road of death” and Col d’Izoard options and got to Nice on Friday mid afternoon.

Ooh I’d really like to do this as well. I would take a stove for morning coffee and definitely some food in case everything is shut upon arrival. I would try and eat out everyday though as I enjoy the whole experience of Italian cafes, restaurants. Think I would bivy and aim to sleep low. 2 season bag and silk sheet liner with a primaloft jacket if I was staying high. Could be miserable but unlikely to die! I’m not a racer though so would bumble along enjoying the views. Let’s hope it’s sooner rather than later for us all. Should have been heading up to the Cairngorms this weekend. Painting the fence is going to have to do.

Same as Duncan’s 2018 trip above, the first day is a key one. In 2019, snow was forecast on the tops for day two. I, like a number of others, pushed on to do both the Colombardo and Finestre climbs, and then stayed at the Refugio Assietta at the bottom of the Finestra descent. I was one of the first there and it was mobbed that night.

That is a long day if you aren’t fast but worth doing both climbs in a oner as it then nicely sets up the schedule for the rest of the week.

Day two, it was snowing on the Assietta. I was cold. For the six day trip, I packed the same as I do on a two day one. Actually, I pack less – I don’t pack cooking kit and just use shops.

Mat, bivi, sleeping bag (a good PHD one that is warm but tiny), sleeping clothes, arm/leg warmers, insulated gilet, waterproof jacket, one change of jersey/socks/shorts. Next time I will also take a light weight puffa – that was why I was cold, and the descents are cold too. That is all I needed.

The rest of the time I bivied out. James has designed the route so that (apart from the first day) the schedule is roughly one climb in the morning each day and then a descent and then a think about where to sleep.

But I did really struggle on two days for food:
1. I did one of the Rough Stuff route options and was out of the way of shops all day (and into the next day) without starting the day with a full bag of supplies.
2. Hitting civilisation when the whole town was closed for siesta for 4 hours over lunchtime(!). Just bad luck.

Again IMO, the first day is the crux, if you’re going for plan 1, you really need to tick off the Colombano and Finestre climbs and get to the Refugio Assietta and have a booked bed there, it’s a very long day, 170km and 4,500m of climbing.

I’m on board with long days, one of my repeated mistakes of the past was doing short days and then spending long evening in the midgies, rain or empty bothy bored and vaguely uncomfortable! Long steady days riding with lots of stops seems to be the ticket. I could even forego carrying dinners if it meant eating on the road then riding into the evening with just a snack before dinner.

That being said, I don’t think I’ve even done 170km and 4,500m climbing on an unladen road bike! Maybe ticking off Raid Pyrenean first would be a good idea.

I’m torn regarding using the Refugio, it seems like pinning yourself down a little too much, I liked the idea of just being able to lay my head where I pleased and waking with sunrise etc. etc. Plus when I tried to plan a lightweight hiking trip in France a couple of years back, I found booking the Refuges a bit stressful, most required you to phone, very few spoke English (my problem, not theirs) so although I could successfully explain what I was doing and book my bed and demi-pension, there would always follow a barrage of French which sounded vaguely like important instructions that I couldn’t understand!

But at the end of the day, if you’re entering the event proper it’s for the social aspect, otherwise you could just do it any other time of year by yourself, so I suppose aiming for the places where everyone else is most likely to be would be the sensible option. Would probably also save a lot of money on new down gear that I’d probably subsequently never use again!

Edit: two useful posts there regarding route splits and food, think I’ll import into Strava and have a play with daily route choice, this is the bit I enjoy most anyway… 😆

I did it in 2018 as well, will jot a few things down later after work.

I made a mistake – day one wasnt the Refugio Assietta (which is at the top of the Assietta). There is another refugio before that, at the bottom of the Finestra descent / before starting the Assietta climb. That was a 83 mile day for me – much more manageable, ideally placed far a long but not massive day’s riding.

Use that refugio and then decide on the day each day what you’ll do for sleeping that night

One thing to be aware of is that James was considering a no-fly rule on participants to this year’s event i.e only travel there by train or other less polluting means. I suppose this would considerably extend the time window needed by UK riders. Given the changed times we are currently living through, this may have been shelved. I know he’s a fan of jumping through unusual hoops to get an entry a la Barkley Marathons so worth keeping an eye on the TNR facebook page. If you’re not set on the Alps, there are many similar events around including the Badlands in S Spain the CAT700 in Cataluña the Tuscany Trail and a trip I run across Spain.

I’m torn regarding using the Refugio, it seems like pinning yourself down a little too much,

Believe me, if you saw the 25km of trail at 2,300m before the refugio and thought about it’s suitability for bivvying in freezing fog like it was when I got there, you’d not hesitate in cracking on with the security of a hot meal and bed. In 2018 there were 6 of us there from the group start. Rumour was that 1 guy had carried on to Sestriere but we never saw him again!

James shelved the idea this year of a no fly rule, before shelving the event entirely this year.

Duncan, I am waiting for your Spanish event to happen again. I REALLY enjoyed joining your ride the other year

Yeah I read that, it definitely wouldn’t be this year, Covid-19 or not, and since this year’s event was over-subscribed I’m assuming next year’s would be too on the basis that most entrants would do it in 2021 instead, and that 2022 would therefore be largely booked up with overspill from 2021! Basically I’m planning on entering in 2021 and just waiting to see. Which is why this thread suddenly feels very premature (I was bored when I posted last night, hadn’t thought it through).

If I targetted 4-5 days, then that leaves the weekends to figure out trains or something. As soon as it creeps past being a Saturday-to-the-following-Sunday style trip then it’ll probably get veto-ed.

Maybe I’d be better just rustling up a crew of like-minded folk and doing it outside the main event.

There is another refugio before that, at the bottom of the Finestra descent / before starting the Assietta climb.

Rifugio Delle Rane by the looks of it, seems a bit more realistic!

Duncan, I am waiting for your Spanish event to happen again. I REALLY enjoyed joining your ride the other year

You’ll be welcome Jamie, this year is looking dodgy with the lockdown here in Cataluña seeming never ending. I’ll drop something on Bearbones later on, thinking of having a “no sandals” rule 😏
I’ve toughened it up a bit with a few sections over 2,000m to take in the sources of the 3 main rivers of Spain, calling it the Spanish Divide.

Back to your original question – how to pack?

Lots of ways to skin that particular cat. I tend to keep “wet” stuff at one end of the bike and “dry” at the other then everything else packed wherever I fancy depending on which bags I’ve fitted to the bike.

I remember posting a kit list a while ago on a similar thread – I think it was in response to @tjagain about having a sub 5kg (not including food or water) kit list, I’ll see if I can find it. Basically you don’t really need any more kit for a week than for a couple of days. It’s just food and fuel, and if you can resupply regularly then even that isn’t a problem – a bit different if you really do have to have a week’s supply but generally in Europe you have to work at avoiding villages, etc., how many circles 80km in diameter don’t have any towns or villages?

Thanks Whitestone.

To be honest I think I was mostly looking for opinion on the stove question and the down bag question. Will figure out the down bag question myself (thinking no, I’ve got a good 3 season synthetic, a liner, and an excuse to get a down jacket now) and I think for the reasons above I’d rather take my stove, maybe a good excuse to buy a Wacaco Mini-presso! I could probably reduce stove pack size by buying a smaller pot, I’d only need enough for a coffee and at worst a dehydrated meal whereas the pot I have at the moment is twice that size.

The rest will answer itself I think.

I find that pots/mugs about 400-450ml are about the right size to boil enough water for a dehydrated meal and then for a brew. Obviously Alpkit do one but I’ve got an Everlite one that’s wider than high and works better with a homemade pop can stove. Sat “sideways” it fits perfectly into a frame bag and I can fit stove, windshield, lighter, pan wipe and a few tea bags in there so apart from fuel it’s pretty self-contained. For touring I’ll also pack either a collapsible bowl or a titanium one (Alpkit).

Dehydrated meals: it’s worth repacking these into a “pour and store” style freezer bag. The packaging they come in is designed to give them a shelf life of a year to eighteen months and also be tough enough for handling and general misuse by the public in the shops before purchase. Since you know you are likely to use it in a week or so this packaging is a bit OTT. You’ll save between 50 – 70% of volume doing this.

Haha, just spent 15 minutes researching how much water was required for camping meals and measuring volume of my pot, reached the exact same conclusion.

I quite like the camping meal packaging, doubles as a bowl and survives a lot of mistreatment in the rucsac. Can see the benefits of ditching it though for minimalism…

An Alpkit MytiPot 900ml fits base first into my big stem cell and becomes a useful hard case for my camera. The other stem cell has my big mug in it that doubles as a lens case. Means camera kit is protected but still really easily at hand.

@supernova – it’s a pity that Alpkit no longer do the XL stem cell. The MyTiMug 650 fits into their standard sized stem cell, didn’t realise the XL took the 900ml. I’ve only ever seen two XL stem cells “in the wild”.

@13thfloormonk – the pour and store bags also double as a bowl but aren’t quite so robust when it comes to mistreatment. A lot depends on just how much room you have overall. It’s all a set of compromises, what “luxuries” you are prepared to forego and what you aren’t.

Sleeping bag and the like. Does depend how warm/cold you sleep so hard to make recommendations. If you want to treat yourself then PHD’s spring sale is on – https://www.phdesigns.co.uk/sales-and-special-offers, still spenny!

Ive both a 2 season and a 3 season sleeping bag from PHD. Spendy but they are far the best two bits of kit I own. So small and light for their warmth
would buy again. 5 stars

I wrote up my trip if you are interested

The First Torino – Nice Rally

Thanks David, enjoyed that, good to read something written in a realistic warts and all style!

Did you ever figure out what went wrong with the re-supplies? What is peak lunch hour in Italy? Or is it just a seasonal thing that all the places were shut?

I think we were unlucky. Others had much richer pickings than I did. I heard tales of massive wood fired pizzas and luxury pasta feasts from others

Still such an ace trip and I yearn to be back there.

As pistonbroke notes, there are a couple of strategies with events like this. Often you’ll find that things “work” for a fast time and a much slower time but not necessarily the timings between. Get it wrong and you hit the towns when everything’s shut for siesta, etc. You’ve got to work out what works for you.

Have just learned ‘siesta’ is actually called ‘riposo’ in Italy, much prefer that!

Sounds like lunch for noonish or after 4pm is the safest bet.

I heard tales of massive wood fired pizzas and luxury pasta feasts from others

Those stories were encouraged just for you Dave ; )

(opens thread interested as I’ve done a few 5-6 day trips, realises it’s about the trip I’ve done most often now..)

Stoves – I just take a Bearbones mini meths stove (meths fairly well available in Italy and France), a 120ml meths bottle and a small mug, use that for coffee in the morning, maybe one of a few hot chocolate sachets in the evening if cold. For bivi food I’d just carry something up there in a packable rucsac. I like those bags, fewer limits on the things you can carry, easy to pack a beer or 2. A mug of hot water can cook Tortellini in the plastic packaging anyway so creative hot food options are open.

Sleeping bag – I have a light PHD Minim Ultra (~6 deg limit) and use a thin quilt inside that many nights – anything above 1500m in September there gets quite cold. Generally it’s around freezing but not much below. It’s the condensation in the bivi that becomes a problem, keeping that off is the best reason for a light, minimal tarp cover. I didn’t use one last couple of trips but will do next time.
I think in total I tend to pack around 4kgs plus whatever camera/phone/GPS etc needed. Just under 1kg for sleep stuff, as little spare clothing as I need to be comfortable and safe, a repairs kit and a micro-stove brew kit. 2 750ml bottles.

One thing I really wouldn’t skip for any ride like this is a light primaloft gilet or jacket. Ideally the jacket. Long descents from 2400m+ in the sleet and rain can be the most uncomfortable thing you’ll ever do on the bike if you’re unable to reduce the chill. Primaloft is brilliant under a rain jacket. Also have guards on my bikepacker/touring bike for that reason.

Pistonbroke’s right that the refuges beyond the Colle Finestre set you up well for a 4-5 day ride but it’s a bit more than a ‘big day’ for most. I’m not the fastest rider but happy on big mountain days like that. Still, knowing the route, packing light etc I’ve not got further than the refuge at the start of the Assietta by dusk – a later social start and stopping to chat, lunch break etc soon eats into the time. From what I’ve heard most people’s carefully-made plans don’t last much past mid-day on day one on this route. I’d bank on a bivi for the first night and (same for any ride like this) not have a daily plan, just aim to know the route and your options. It’s a game of adapt as you go.

There’s never been a plan for a no-fly rule as such, just discouraging it for the group start event. Not an option for some though so I have other ideas about offsetting. Also since the next event is postponed I’ve got time to think through alternatives that might allow more entrants to the rally after that (6th) w/o causing problems. Refuge space is limited and a rush for them or just being a big event kills off the spirit of a social ride.

TBH I think it’s a pretty flexible route for any attitude towards the ride. It rarely feels remote and it’s mostly quite forgiving of planing errors. There’s water regularly apart from 2 sections of 40-50km or so. Worst case is you go off-route 15km to get food, lose half a day’s progress or underestimate a section and have a day that ends at 10pm or later with dinner being whatever back-up snacks you’re carrying. I think that’s why most riders take 7-8 days or more – they stop at a good food / sleep option earlier in the day and re-group with others rather than risk being caught out. If you have 2000 calories in a backpack and that’s the way your group travels you can ride until whenever you feel like a kip.

To be honest, DavidB’s write up reminded me of the many times I’ve opted for hostel or crowded bothy over tent or tarp, and regretted it. Fat naked snoring motorcyclists in Ullapool, elephantine snorers at Kinbreak, grumpy ‘late off the crag’-ers kicking off at Shenavall because somebody had moved their sleeping matt, people leaving their 5am alarm on ‘snooze’ as they sneak off for a shower (that last one was me, karma!).

Can you purchase food and drink at Refugios if you’re not actually staying there?

I think it depends on the size and location of the refuge. The Alpine ones definitely seem more of a commercial enterprise with decent passing trade but as September is a “between” season, neither high summer for the walkers nor winter for the skiers, it’s possible that if they don’t have a decent number of bed bookings, they don’t bother opening or only open at lunchtime. The Assietta is massive place and can sleep about 50 in twin bedded rooms, there was only us 6 in residence when I was there. Dave’s experience was finding a little restaurant about 20km before and the propietor was persuaded to let a group kip on the floor of an upstairs room hence the disturbance. I’m pretty sure the bigger refuges are contactable by email which allows you to decipher the answer to any questions you may have. When booking the Assietta I asked an Italian neighbour to phone on my behalf, when I arrived the guard greeted me like a long lost brother!

The only refuge I’ve used in Spain is the one beneath the Naranjo de Bulnes which we had to ring beforehand to book but I think it’s one of the more popular ones.

The italian ones I’ve used varied from those run by the Italian Alpine Club to private family run affairs. What’s available to “non-residents” varies, probably most likely down to the amount of passing trade.

Fine, I think JamesO’s approach of always carrying a day’s food is the obvious choice.

Plus, I really need to stop trying to nail down logistics of a trip I may or may not do in 2-3 years time! Will just retire to Strava again and play with the route, it’s my favourite part of any trip anyway… Have found a 3250m peak which appears to have a very rideable looking gravel track all the way to the top, would beat my previous height-by-bike record by a respectable 240m!

a day’s food

A day? When I said 2000 calories I meant that as a bivi snack, ideally with something left for breakfast : )