So yesterday after nearly 2 years of not using it I took my Orange clockwork Evo to Swinley. For refererence, it’s this one albeit with a Brand X dropper and a Magic Mary upfront.

My god it was crap to ride to begin with despite generally good internet reviews. Bounced all over the place, heavy,uncomfortable. Only did it work when (i know, I’m late to the party) I realised how to use a dropper properly – when going down the main single track after the short steep climb on the red and with the dropper down, I accidentally found the (dropped) saddle between my knees rather than my thighs, and the front way out in front of me smoothly popping of little drops.

Anyway, I found myself wanting to instantly replace it with a FS but before I do, what do I need to know? Ride it more? Mtfu? Something else? How do I get this Hardtail fun people speak of?

Not ride it like a FS.

Lean on the fork a bit more and allow your legs to absorb what the rear is doing. Don’t grip the saddle with your knees. Have the saddle dropped at any point you don’t need it for seated pedalling.

Hardtails do need a little more work but it’s worth it cos they are fun, but they’re knackering too 😂😎 Having gone from a Switchback to a Trance, I do miss the pop and urgency of a nice (singlespeed) HT occasionally but not so much that I’m about to swap back over.

Basically, MTFU & ride it more but if you want a FS just buy a FS.

Weight the front fork more.

Stand up more.

Fit the biggest tyres you can and run at the lowest pressure you’re happy with (maybe with a tyre insert).

Man up.

Enjoy the masochism.

Just get an FS. They’re way betterer

weeksy
Full Member

Just get an FS. They’re way betterer

Yeah. . . nah

Insert in the rear tyre so you can pretty much forget about it. Sensible tyre pressures (whatever you like to run really, given the insert you now have). Try and forget it’s a hardtail and just ride as you know you should anyway. Have a laugh, wince at the pain in your old back. Heal and repeat

It’s okay OP, no one is saying you Have to like hardtails – but your question is fair and yes, in my experience they do need a different riding style. I love my hardtails, but also recognise that they aren’t as fast as full sus in the rough stuff so smoothness over straight line speed is where the fun is found.

If it’s a ‘LLS modern geometry’ HT, that adds another layer of difference to older HTs, but once you get used to that they are way better.

As others have said, you need to weight the front. For me, that means with the dropper down, dropping down AND slightly forwards in the lower body – knees down towards front axle kind of thing – if the bike is long.

The other reason they feel weird riding along compared to full sus at places like Swinley is, in my experience, a weird ‘rocking’ motion forwards and backwards as you try to put the leg power in but also need to keep the bike riding smooth. I think most people hate this and well damped full sus seems to take care of it. Hate to say it, as I know you are an athletic dude, but you need to engage your core to stop that – that keeps it smooth and helps absorb bumps, legs spin under that driving the power. I think we all know it, but switching back and forth can catch me out on that one and makes the HT feel like a dog.

Worst stealth ad ever.

Loose as a goose…

i took the HT out the other day, first time in probably a year, since i got the FS I have been dreaming about and mentally building while saving for…..

it was just as fast (not measured) and felt faster than that
it really seemed to carry momentum up small inclines better (maybe my rear shock could do with a tweak)
it doesnt have a dropper

this is off the back of a few test rides on mates eMTBs, which all feel much more sluggish and downright heavy (not my thing) during riding…. oh and ‘eco’ mode is not balancing all the weight and requiring the same effort as a proper bike….
ymmv

Worst stealth ad ever.

lol, I actually don’t want to sell it – I got it in a sale for £1050 – you can’t really get a new LLS / SLX/ 35mm Revelation (this was the Debonair “baby pike” at the time) for that these days. I think its a good winter/skills refresh option to have.

As others have said, you need to weight the front. For me, that means with the dropper down, dropping down AND slightly forwards in the lower body – knees down towards front axle kind of thing – if the bike is long.

Thanks Owen / Tom – it is a long bike, and I was weighting backward so I need to practise this. When I said the saddle was between my knees I did mean that from a location perspective, I wasn’t gripping it – so I had my weight much further back. On my Spark my fixed post saddle is nearly always between my thighs/

The other reason they feel weird riding along compared to full sus at places like Swinley is, in my experience, a weird ‘rocking’ motion forwards and backwards as you try to put the leg power in but also need to keep the bike riding smooth. I think most people hate this and well damped full sus seems to take care of it. Hate to say it, as I know you are an athletic dude, but you need to engage your core to stop that – that keeps it smooth and helps absorb bumps, legs spin under that driving the power. I think we all know it, but switching back and forth can catch me out on that one and makes the HT feel like a dog.

You’ve hit the nail on the head here. Even on the first proper bit of the blue section I couldn’t ride it smoothly because of this which started my negativity, I re-learned to stand and coast to absorb rather than pedal through. Being a Marathon MTB racer I’m pre-disposed to pedalling continuously for 4hrs at a time so I think thats the issue – I’m having to re learn things.

Pushing as high a gear as possible over rough stuff (if you need to pedal, obvs!) helps keep the back wheel down when you’re sat down on a HT 👍

Sounds like you’ve gone soft to me.

Love my hardtail.
Feel like I am earning my flow and really appreciate the feedback. Have to nuance my way down drops: it’s a game of chess and I like that.

It feels faster than my full-sus (an Orbea Occam carbon thing) but isn’t. Doesn’t matter.

I rode my FS for the first time in months today – hated it. Pedal strikes and struggling on sharp step-ups.

The thing is it takes time to get used to a bike. Ride it a few more times and then appreciate how well you are riding.

Take it to Thetford and you’ll have a riot 👍

Hardtails aren’t for everyone, just proper men.

Hardtails aren’t for everyone, just proper men.

what polite way to say MTFU 😉

Love hardtails, they are a pure riding experience with very little filtered out.
In recent years I’ve had:
Dialled Alpine
456-evo
45650b
Ragley Piglet
Dartmoor Hornet
Ragley Blue Pig

…looking to buy my first aggro 29er HT later this year – thinking Hello Dave or similar.

Anyway, dropper post down (only up when sat climbing), short stem so you can push on the front without feeling like you’re about to go OTBs, flat pedals, heels down, take the big hits through the legs…that’s about it, I’ve taken HTs on uplift days at BPW, FoD, Antur etc and never had any problems.

The problem is the imbalance between front and rear travel. You need to go rigid at which point both ends will deflect at the same rate bringing a pleasing serenity to your life 🙂

How do I get this Hardtail fun people speak of?

It doesn’t exist, it never did. People are just good at deluding themselves being slammed about is fun.

When I said the saddle was between my knees I did mean that from a location perspective, I wasn’t gripping it – so I had my weight much further back.

I’m trying to visualise this and can only imagine someone trying to manual. The only time I’m ever that far back is when I’m on something ridiculously steep (15yo Trailstar LT with 90mm stem), the rest of the time I’m forward.

It doesn’t exist, it never did. People are just good at deluding themselves being slammed about is fun.

If you’re getting slammed about you’re doing it wrong. Loosey goosey…

Hardtails aren’t great if you need to do a lot of fairly flat pedal sections, even the slightest undulations just create a constant up down bumping effect. I always struggle on the xc trail at Woburn because of this, it just doesn’t make for a pleasant pedal. I like mine for more winch and plummet riding,

Hardtails aren’t great if you need to do a lot of fairly flat pedal sections, even the slightest undulations just create a constant up down bumping effect.

What are you on about? Bumps are bumpy? Not sure what you’re expecting. Just pump more and use it to your advantage.

Hardtails aren’t great if you need to do a lot of fairly flat pedal sections

Lolwut? That’s exactly where they excel over a full sus! If your hardtail is bucking you all about the place you really need to look at your riding technique, I’d start by not locking out all your joints.

Everyone’s experiences are going to be different. FWIW I agree with dc1988 for my home trails around Squamish. My Chromag is way more at home on a ‘black’ tech trail where people riding look at me with complete bewilderment when I roll by. It’s all about having a great front brake and tire, keeping your elbows bent / chest open and not being afraid to weight the front wheel when going down steep features.
My FS bike is waaaaay more efficient on the flatter rooty stuff. I don’t know why anyone would think otherwise? Maybe people are talking about trails that just have one or two roots but otherwise smooth?

Because pedalling efficiency is higher on a hardtail than a full sus despite any claims of woo from manufacturers.

My Trailstar, for reference, is a 69 or 70 degree HA and rips on the flat, slacken that right off, lengthen it and stick another 40mm travel on and yeah, that’s gonna feel crap.

I’ve ridden everything from a Banshee Morphine with drop bars and a SID(!) to DH bikes around here, and for the flat rooty trails that I am thinking of, there is absolutely no way in Hell an old DMR will be quicker than a modern FS ‘trail’ bike. It’s not going to happen. Your trails might be different 😉

I was commenting on the “fairly flat slightly undulating trails” being difficult on a hardtail no mention of rootiness. That’s how Id describe my local terrain. Definitely not squamish! Maybe I’ve watched too many dangerous Dave videos and he’s painted it far gnarlier than it really is?

I was commenting on the “fairly flat slightly undulating trails” being difficult on a hardtail

Same, he was talking about XC trails at Woburn, not black trails in Squamish. And I never said it would be quicker either, just that pedalling efficiency is better and that a hardtail designed for plummeting is going to be unsurprisingly bad on the flat. If having a rigid rear end was so bad why would suspension come with platforming and lockouts?

What I meant by fairly flat was not smooth, there are many times that you can’t easily sit and pedal on a hardtail but you can on a full sus. You can claim as much as you want about efficiency but seated pedaling on a full sus will be more efficient than having to stand on a hardtail (or at least having to hover over the saddle). A hardtail is great on fire roads but you don’t get that many trails that are so smooth.

To the OP I find just lots of practice is all it takes. Pump and float.

Very little real difference between hard tails and FS where I ride.

I lug my steel ht around all the same trails my lightweight mates ride on their bouncy sofas. They’re only noticeably any faster on the rockiest of downhill trails.

When it comes to technical climbs I’m way faster on a ht.

Hardtails pedal super efficiently – any rear suspension related loss is gone. Same for pumping. However hardtails lose more speed when hitting bumps due to the lack of rear suspension and have less traction in the rough for the same reason.

My last hardtail (Zero AM with -2 deg headset) was brilliant at gnarly winch and plummet but quite cantankerous on flatter trails unless they were smooth pumpy affairs.

My new hardtail (Moxie!) is even better at the rough steep gnar but handles flat bumpy trails so much better. It has similar angles but longer reach and stays, slightly higher but stil low BB, even more and better fork travel, but bigger wheels and a far less harsh steel frame. Big wheeled good steel hardtails work really well!

re DC1988
I don’t/can’t sit and pedal anywhere, unless im absolutely ruined and i need a split second relief
I don’t know if it’s the norm or not but i can’t even imagine sitting and pedalling through any section on my FS let alone on my HT, only other exception might be is when the trail turns upwards again and slows down

i had a revelation moment (while familiarising myself with clips) on a flat section that id usually pedal through and stop my strokes over roots etc that on clips i could just load the front up and pedal through which gave a lot of extra speed. This would also be possible on a FS of course.. but on the HT it seemed to be a virtual game changer

There is a rider’s age factor to consider (IME).
I’ve noticed my own resilience has ebbed away over the years bit by bit, where twenty/thirty something me could muster the energy to be shaken and bounced about on a Trailstar or a 456 for eight odd hours, then get up and do it again the following day. Forty-something me simply can’t take the jostling on a (admittedly fully rigid) 29er HT for anything like as long.

I can ride my FS bike for that bit longer because I’m using less energy not needing to deal with the minor knocks and vibrations that come from a lack of springs…

But there’s something still to be said for a bike with a shorter back end and zero squish, it’s a lot more positive on the climbs (IMO), and pumping and hopping the thing about on trails can be more rewarding than an FS that goes faster on the same trails. Just remember you’ll notice roots and bumps that a bouncer would insulate you from, so line choice becomes more important on the HT as you can’t ‘monster truck’ your way through the same stuff an FS would allow you to.

I suppose what I’m saying is neither is ‘better’ or ‘worse’ they’re just different rewarding you in different ways for different aspects of riding. Although an FS is never the cheaper option either in terms of purchase or servicing, more parts and components needing more TLC (which might affect some people’s choices)…

Theres alot of rationalisation of hardtail pros and cons as a mechanism for deciding whats best here.

Modern FS bikes, built for light duty case use, or for heavy use are better as a tool for the job of off-road riding beyond the scope of gravel.

No contest, end of thread.

But IMO this entirely misses the point. Riding a HT off-road is a deliberate choice to NOT use the right tool for the job. For me, this is about the ride experience. I ride the same trails on my HT as my FS, but its done in an entirely different way.

I’ve always thought Swinley might be annoying in a hardtail – particularly the pedally blue bit with a slightly rough surface.

I like my hardtail on certain types of biking – smooth trail centres where there isn’t a constant vibration coming through / bridleway bashing where there is lots of flat and compacted trail with occasional rough rocky hits you stand up for / steep off piste tech where you’re always stood up.

Outright capability of my hardtail probably isn’t a million miles behind my Sentinel based on my limits as much as anything – although I am slower on on fast / rocky rough stuff in the ht.

With the hardtail you have to be standing up more often and that is tiring on the legs – if you try and stay seated pedalling most of the time it’s going to beat you up.

Things that help are leaning on the fork a bit more rather than leaning back (which you shouldn’t do anyway on any mtb), dropper down as much as you can, big volume tyres (my hardtail has a 2.6” rear tyre), lower pressure tyres (I’m running about 22-23 psi in mine) and an insert in the rear (got a Rimpact in mine).

Also I think you’d find a hardtail far more enjoyable round the Surrey Hills than Swinley.

That said if I could only have one mtb it would be my full suss bike.

With the hardtail you have to be standing up more often and that is tiring on the legs – if you try and stay seated pedalling most of the time it’s going to beat you up.

You need to learn to ‘hover’ – taking a bit of your weight off the seat and into your legs, but not fully standing up.

As above though, I have a HT not because it’s necessarily better or worse for any given situation.. it’s just different to my FS and variety is good!

I’ve always thought Swinley might be annoying in a hardtail – particularly the pedally blue bit with a slightly rough surface.

This +1, but you get used to it.

You have to treat it as having two distinct ways of riding it IME. 1) Attacking rough sections, you need to load the forks as much as you can without going OTB. You can’t just keep the weight centered and let the bike do the work until it gets so rowdy that going OTB becomes a danger. 2) Smooth bits you have to pump harder through the pedals to make the most of the advantage of it being a hardtail.

A third complication is I’ve found it really difficult to ride modern LLS bikes clipped in. The weight distribution just feels all kinds of wrong. Looking at the bleeding-edge XC bikes rather than trail bikes it looks like I’m not the only one. Cannondale, Trek etc making their XC bikes with the same 66deg head angles, but keeping the 70-80mm stems to keep the weight over the front end.

Funny you should say that about Swinley
first time i was there i wished for my FS so i could sit down a bit, i was knackered.. been a few time since and not been an issue on my HT, maybe fitness had improved

A third complication is I’ve found it really difficult to ride modern LLS bikes clipped in.

I don’t recognise this as a thing tbh, and I’m a dyed-in-the-wool clipless rider for 23 years.

Can you elaborate on what you mean?