How do you challenge racism?

Three pages in and have we decided if it’s a big stick, or ostracization ?

Face it down.
https://twitter.com/richardgrant88/status/1267523353289474048/photo/1

“colour blindness”

I think this can mean two different things to people. Not noticing colour which IMO is self deception and not treating people of colour differently to anyone else.

Personally I don’t really do either. I certainly notice the colour of peoples skin and I probably overcompensate by watching out for me and others behaving differently towards them.

As the number of BAME people in nursing has increased over the years I think incidence of unthinking racism has decreased as its become normalised to have BAME staff around

However, I learn that I shouldn’t, because in doing I would be asking him to do the work for me. Instead I need to use my own time and energy to find resources to educate myself.

I think that’s up for debate. I have learned a lot from talking to BAME people that I would not otherwise have learned. Assuming that the people who are prepared to write about it are doing so because they want to educate people, I’d assume that they would also be prepared to talk to you about it. But simply walking up and asking how not to be racist, that would be a bit much – as if it’s a thing that can be explained in 5 minutes – so I can see both sides there. Like most things it has to be approached with tact.

I guess in general that asking questions on a difficult topic is ok if they are intelligent questions….

I wanted to ask him for his knowledge because he is BAME and I initially thought that’s a good thing to do because I am very white, middle class, straight and have no concept of the microagressions and bias that he faces in his everyday life. I am female so have a tiny understanding of some of it, but it’s different. However, I learn that I shouldn’t, because in doing I would be asking him to do the work for me. Instead I need to use my own time and energy to find resources to educate myself.

I’m sorry, but to me this is well wrong. One of the principle ways I educate myself is to talk to people.

Whereas you’re saying it’s okay to read what someone has written, or watch them talk on youtube, but not to approach them??

My concern is that, as with the loose usage of words yesterday, you undermine your credibility and valid points by inserting statements like the above, which to a lot of people seem slightly absurd.

What’s it like under your bridge? Care to provide an outline of exactly what should be done in the situation outlined by TJ? If not then you are just trolling. We know what TJ does for a living and what his credentials are. You on the other hand.

As is typical with STW – the idiots always come out in defence of the other idiots.

Don’t ever change mooman. You’re a walking talking explanation of Dunning-Kruger. 😀

In the meantime, any chance you could step away from the thread? You’re continuously trying to derail it.

As is typical with STW – the idiots always come out in defence of the other idiots.

This thread has been quite different to other discussions and STW threads regarding racism, normally the person calling it who is hounded. Instead of justifying our ignorance and prejudices with the Edinburgh defense, people have sought to challenge it politely and also acknowledge that they maybe unwittingly part of the problem.
I thought Kip posted quite an enlightening piece, it’s not the responsibility of BAME people to educate us on the damage that our systemic racism has done to their lives. We are the perpetrators of this harm and we should be looking towards ourselves to change our own attitudes, no one else can do this for us.

he was right, look for it yourself, don’t be so lazy and assume that other people will provide the evidence for you. Your opinions have been challenged, if you believe yourself to be so high and mighty that you are incapable of being wrong you are very much part of the problem not the cure.

That isn’t how it works. If you claim something then you have to provide the supporting evidence.

I don’t see colour because it isn’t relevant. Friend at uni on my PGDE course is black, why would I treat them any differently to someone else just because his skin produces more melanin than mine. That is utterly preposterous, biased and racist. Do you think they do the same?

our systemic racism

Our? Who are you addressing?

I don’t see colour because it isn’t relevant. Friend at uni on my PGDE course is black, why would I treat them any differently to someone else just because his skin produces more melanin than mine.

Then you are ignorant of the issues POC face. Once everyone is treated equally by all, then colour will cease to be relevant.

Actually my credentials? I really do not know why I have to justify myself to a know nothing troll

Registered nurse.

Studied law and ethics to honours degree level with one of Scotlands top law professors. Passed with distinction

Studied care of people living with dementia with world renowned experts at honours degree level. Passed with distinction.
Both of those at my own expense in my own time

Acted as dementia link nurse for many years as an exemplar of best practice

Taught dementia care and managing challenging behaviour to student nurses and CSWs

Used by senior staff as a resource for challenging behaviour and often allocated the most challenging patients because of my skills.

Run a dementia care unit where I was commended for the quality of care.

But according to someone who clearly has no understanding and no qualifications or knowledge is guilty of elder abuse?

Classic racist excuse Denying white privilege exists

I’m minded of a match report of when Man Utd played Ipswich Town in 1995.

‘This is what happens when an unstoppable force meets the flimsiest of objects’

Actually my credentials? I really do not know why I have to justify myself to a know nothing troll

Hold your horses – Mooman done a course!!

Me, I’m super-grateful for everything you and your colleagues do, TJ, in spite of the jobsworths with clipboards you have inflicted on you from time to time.

That is utterly preposterous, biased and racist.

No one’s asking you to treat him differently, you’re being ask courteously to learn about the problems he faces that perhaps you’re not aware of, with these problems directly related to his skin colour.

I don’t see colour because it isn’t relevant.

That is racial prejudice pure and simple, to ignore and deny is to perpetuate the problem.

I don’t see colour because it isn’t relevant. Friend at uni on my PGDE course is black, why would I treat them any differently to someone else just because his skin produces more melanin than mine. That is utterly preposterous, biased and racist. Do you think they do the same?

I don’t think “seeing colour” = “treat people differently”, I’m not sure what it means – until this week I would have said I don’t see colour, and I’d have meant it in a well-meaning, naive and very broad anti-racism sense. I got some reading to do before I can say what I think it means.

Moonman, what are you even doing on here?

You’re like the alt-right protester dressed like Darth Vader with a brolly smashing store windows with a hammer. Where he was exploiting protests about police brutality to sow more discord and division, you’re jumping on a thread about racism and using it to attack the person on here who probably knows the most about Alzheimer’s and accusing him of not knowing about Alzheimer’s.

Poah,

If they ever do a new series of the Fast show, I nominate you as a character.

Anyway, in response to the OP.

I find the best way to deal with direct racism is to just call it out there and then. No need to a lecture on why it’s racist, just a simple “Oh come on, don’t be a ****t” or “sorry, it’s not the 1970s” said in a friendly slightly humorous tone is usually sufficient to keep most people in check. If it sounds like they really mean it, then I usually go with “wow, thats a pretty cruel and nasty thing to come out with”

I don’t see colour because it isn’t relevant

Well it’s certainly relevant in the case of the McMichaels, Amy Cooper and Derek Chauvin. Just because it affects us middle-aged white guys far less than any African American, nothing justifies you sweeping it under the carpet because you’re ‘colourblind’

I see the colour of people’s skin, there I’ve said it! and you know what? I like having people from different parts of the world (hell, even different parts of my own country), from different cultures, with different religions, languages and with different life stories around me in my dailly life because (as I tell my kids) if we were all the same and liked doing the same things then life would be boring as variety is the spice of life.

Can you imagine life without curry, the potato, regae, soul and all the other cultural things we come into contact every day that was originally not from these shores? It’d be shit!

However I try challenge racism even the micro sometimes passive racist behavior of people around me at work, where I live etc. And I hope if I say something inadvertently outdated term that is now perceived as being racist then I want to be challenged too. It’s how we will shape our society, slowly one little bit at a time.

Embrace diversity.

Integration not segregation.

Has mooman been deleted?

#leerigby is trending today, which tells you a lot about the state of this country

I don’t know who Lee Rigby is as I try not watch the news, don’t use Facebook or Twitter as it gets me down. And I’d say I’m not the only one.

Looks like it Matt

#leerigby is trending today, which tells you a lot about the state of this country

Jesus. 🙁

Looked up quite a few books on black history and racism – interesting how many are out of stock. A good sign?

@Rydster. I was referring to white westerners, as our governments are in our image and reflect the values of the majority.

#leerigby is trending today, which tells you a lot about the state of this country

🤷🏻‍♂️

And I repeat Wow!

My concern is that, as with the loose usage of words yesterday, you undermine your credibility and valid points by inserting statements like the above, which to a lot of people seem slightly absurd.

This response to me saying I shouldn’t ask a BAME person for information but look for it myself was a little surprising. I was quoting something I’d read about how I get my information about racism and the experiences of BAME people.

I also like to speak to people with experiences I haven’t had to further my knowledge and understanding, however in this case, it was suggested my first port of call should be the amazing resources that are already out there.

Yes, by all means chat with friends and colleagues if they are open to the conversation, but don’t assume they want to be the person who answers all your questions. It’s hard work and suggests we can’t be arsed to so it ourselves.

Reni Eddo-Lodge’s book Why I’m no longer talking to White people about race is brilliant and explains that very point.

I included a link to the Alberta Civil Liberties Research Centre (a Canadian site) which has a wealth of well referenced articles. This one from the Goodmenproject.com<span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”> is referenced in the article about white privilege and is an interesting read about why talking to White people about racism is so hard.</span>

By the way, I use the term BAME because that’s what the Equality, Diversity and Inclusivity team where I work use. Others use POC (People of colour) and BIPOC (Black, Indigenous, and People of Colour) is also used. And coincidentally I did my EDI refresher today, so I too have “done a course.” Can I abuse TJ for no reason at all now?

Keep challenging discriminatory systems and behaviours wherever you see them. We don’t have to accept a racist status quo!

Keep challenging your own prejudices – we all have them.

Don’t accept or tolerate racist abuse – whenever you can.

BTW – in the main, this place is better than most other communities. As a POC I very much feel welcomed and not pre-judged here.

I accept people as who they are as I have no intention to change them, good or bad. My reason is simple I don’t want to impose on others as I don’t want others to impose on me regardless. Live and let live.

My boss at work has just announced that Derek Chauvin killed George Floyd because Mr Floyd is black and Mr Chauvin is white. There is no evidence for that assertion, it is purely based on the skin colour of the two individuals. Should I challenge it?

I found this piece quiet interesting, unfortunately not surprising, but it does explain the constant racial abuse from a young age that some people suffer, even though the perpetrators may not realise what they’ve said causes offence (not defending it btw).

My White Friend Asked Me on Facebook to Explain White Privilege. I Decided to Be Honest

As the number of BAME people in nursing has increased over the years I think incidence of unthinking racism has decreased as its become normalised to have BAME staff around

There have been significant numbers of BAME working in nursing since well before you qualified. Not a dig TJ (Hopefully you that is clear 👍🏼) – just stating the fact. Largely from all over Commonwealth and former Commonwealth nations… This I have a personal view of – my dad having been one of so very many…

There have been significant numbers of BAME working in nursing since well before you qualified.

Maybe not in Scotland.

mooman wrote:
I find the whole white privilege thing offensive and blatantly ignorant.<

I would really love it if you could provide some evidence as to why?

StuF, thanks, really interesting read. I’ve read similar but the piece that said:

I also have to alter headlines constantly to 1) include a person’s name and not have it just be “Black Man Wins Settlement” or “Carnegie Hall Gets 1st Black Board Member,” or 2) rephrase it from a subtle subjugator like “ABC taps Viola Davis as Series Lead” to “Viola Davis Lands Lead on ABC Show” as is done for, say, Jennifer Aniston or Steven Spielberg.

I found especially enlightening. I got the bit about using colour not name to describe the subject but not the subtle subjugator bit. That is much clearer and makes this sort of comment or headline much easier to recognise for the racist language it is.

Bravo that man (my unconscious bias is assuming you to be a man, hopefully correctly).

P.S. I do love a good reference!

That was a good read StuF. The phrase ‘white privilege’ has entered the lexicon over the last few years and it scares people. Not just those who read BLM as ‘only’ black lives matter, rather than black lives matter as much as white lives. (The actual message of the movement)

I saw Toto Wolf supporting Lewis Hamilton earlier. He said words to the effect that Lewis once asked him: ‘Toto, do you ever go about your day being conscious that you’re white.’ To which Toto replied: no Lewis, I’ve never really thought about it. Lewis replied that it something he has to be conscious of every day in his dealings with the world.

For Toto Wolf this was a revelation and I think perfectly encompasses both what white privilege is and how the concept can still be alien to an otherwise intelligent and competent person until they are open to have it either explained or revealed to them.

Maybe not in Scotland.

The midges put them off!😁. As I said though – not a dig at TJ, I appreciate and respect his perspective.