So fat people are stupid now are they? Including the leading academic who did the study?

You’re re right, you aren’t very clever! Nor are you nice.

I haven’t yet stooped to calling anyone a bloody idiot.

I also wouldn’t say that ‘fat people are stupid’. There are plenty people who are happy being overweight, if they’re healthy and happy there’s nowt stupid about that.

The problem here is that the arguments being put forward aren’t mutually exclusive. Yes, genetics can make it easier or harder for some people to lose/gain weight. But that doesn’t cancel out the basic energy in/energy out equation.

Yes, some people have to work harder. That doesn’t mean that ‘eat less, move more’ is any less valid, it just means it’s going to be more difficult for them. You can’t invent energy, it has to come from somewhere. If someone refused to accept this basic, demonstrable fact, I might think them an idiot.

Haven’t read all of the thread, I think we haven’t seen the worst of the problem over the next few decades it’s going to be awful. The amount of fat kids I see is awful and they are being brought up eating snack food and rubbish. I was really questioning my decision to give my 2 a packet of pombear things yesterday asa bribe to get out of the softplay and not fall asleep in the car. Then I remembered it was sometime last summer when I last gave them a packet. Walking out of the soft play virtually every kid had a cake or chocolate. I’m sure as a kid I pretty much ever had stuff like that apart from when I went to my nana.

Anyway I do agree some people have fat and thin genes but for the vast majority it is just poor diet and lack of exercise

But that doesn’t cancel out the basic energy in/energy out equation.

No, but it adds a shedload of terms to it.

I also wouldn’t say that ‘fat people are stupid’.

You did though.

Yes, some people have to work harder. That doesn’t mean that ‘eat less, move more’ is any less valid, it just means it’s going to be more difficult for them.

That’s the entire point I’ve been making all along.

You can’t invent energy, it has to come from somewhere. If someone refused to accept this basic, demonstrable fact, I might think them an idiot.

As a Physics graduate I’m reasonably familiar with the laws of thermodynamics. Also with mass-energy equivalence but let’s not go there just yet.

Walking out of the soft play virtually every kid had a cake or chocolate. I’m sure as a kid I pretty much ever had stuff like that apart from when I went to my nana.

That reflects more on your upbringing and possibly age. When I was a kid every kid was stuffing their faces with sweets and crisps all the time. Most were thin.

Great, so everyone agrees then?

The only way to loose weight is to be in calorie deficit, for some people, because of their genetic makeup that will prove harder to do and therefore might be more uncomfortable and may take longer to do than others because of the difference in the way everyone uses the calories they take in, throw in a layer on top of that of the psychological differences inherent in everyone will also have an impact because of a individuals relationship with food.

Marvellous.

@the OP, I do wonder if you have really understood the implications of the study, or are just using it for your own confirmation bias?

Here is some expert reaction to the study:

Prof. Keith Frayn, Emeritus Professor of Human Metabolism, University of Oxford, said:

“Thinness and fatness are two ends of a spectrum. It is well established that excessive fatness (obesity) has a strong inherited component, so it is not too much of a surprise to find that the same is true for thinness. An interesting finding from this study, though, is that not all the genes involved are the same. These results do not tell us anything about why some people remain thin. In the press release Professor Farooqi says that “Some people are just not that interested in food whereas others can eat what they like, but never put on weight”, but the results do not bear out the idea that some people can eat whatever they like and never put on weight. Nor is there any evidence for that point of view from physiological studies: almost all the evidence from genetic and physiological studies points to the fact that body weight is largely a reflection of how much we eat. If there are people who can eat what they like and not put on weight, they either don’t want to eat much, or they are the regular exercisers. People who exercise regularly were excluded by the authors from the thin cohort, so this is almost certainly a study of the genetics of low versus high energy intake.”

Am I using it for my own confirmation bias? Hmm. Well I’ve long thought anecdotally that different people react differently to food intake. It’s pretty clear based on the people I know well. I posted the study because it also seems to add a little weight to the idea.

I mean, if you have two people doing similar amounts of exercise and you give them the same calorie surplus, I’m quite confident that they won’t necessarily gain the same amount of weight – if any. The ‘genetic’ component can manifest itself in a variety of ways of course. I mean we all know people who are warmer or colder than others – people who are happy with the heating on 18C and others who want it at 23C. So clearly that extra heat is coming from somewhere. My guess (and it’s a guess) would be that that is partly due to conditioning, partly environmental and partly genetic.

Are you saying that in my thought experiment above that if you kept any two people under the same conditions with the same calorie surplus that they’d gain the same amount of weight?

I’m not saying that, Prof. Keith Frayn, Emeritus Professor of Human Metabolism, University of Oxford is

Just to be clear – you think that his comments say that if you kept any two people under the same conditions with the same calorie surplus that they’d gain the same amount of weight?

Cos I don’t get that idea reading what you quoted.

if you kept any two people under the same conditions with the same calorie surplus that they’d gain the same amount of weight?

Define calorie surplus?

I think that is what he is implying with his last comment yes. I may be more nuanced than that as you say, you certainly burn more calories staying warm when you are cold for example. But I am happy to take from his reaction that this is broadly a study of the genetics of calorie intake, or to put it another way appetite control.

This thread is bizarre, i’m not sure what everyone seems to be arguing about as there seems to be universal agreement on the central point.

Great, so everyone agrees then?

The only way to loose weight is to be in calorie deficit, for some people, because of their genetic makeup that will prove harder to do and therefore might be more uncomfortable and may take longer to do than others because of the difference in the way everyone uses the calories they take in, throw in a layer on top of that of the psychological differences inherent in everyone will also have an impact because of a individuals relationship with food.

Marvellous.

Is there anyone who doesn’t think this is correct???

Broadly agree with that, I think what this study shows is some people find it harder than others to control appetite, and that each group has different genes. Still I think there is causality / causation issue here.

almost all the evidence from genetic and physiological studies points to the fact that body weight is largely a reflection of how much we eat

Says the good prof. So in your thought experiment, The prof is suggesting he would expect two average people eating similar calorie excess would put on similar amounts of weight.

This thread is bizarre, i’m not sure what everyone seems to be arguing about as there seems to be universal agreement on the central point.

Yup, everyone agrees. The disagreement is 99pc Molgrips writing down stuff he doesn’t agree with and then debunking it in the same post.

Just to be clear – you think that his comments say that if you kept any two people under the same conditions with the same calorie surplus that they’d gain the same amount of weight?

If you define like this

Energy Surplus = Energy from food that you eat – energy burned from living and exercising – energy in your shit

They yes I would, otherwise where else does the energy go?

I think what this study shows is some people find it harder than others to control appetite, and that each group has different genes.

No no no, what the study shows is that thin and fat people have different alleles, we have no idea what the genes are or how the different alleles work. It could be appetite, it could not be, the differences could also be completely unrelated to metabolism or weight.

After a recent run in with the school run moms I have given up worrying about their oncoming diabetes and heart disease. I am beyond being sad, I am actually sick in my stomach at the state of things. I 100% blame the moms. Yes ok there are a few lazy dads, but in my experience it is 99.999999% the moms who do this.

So, I have been doing the school bus run for over 10yrs now. Probably a 500m round trip walk. It was an opportunity to talk to the kids. Drop them off and wake up myself before work. Now the kids are at big school they don’t need walked to the bus stop, but I like it and get to see their mood before school. I got a dog and continued the walk each morning to the tune of a couple of miles. This is where problems started.

I noticed that even though the bus stop is on the edge of the estate, the amount of cars who would block paths to get within 15ft of the bus stop was incredible. I noticed mothers dropping their kids off and reversing back up the road 100ft to go home. Hell one of my neighbours is the worst and insists on turning a main road with pickups for kids into a chicane because she can’t be bothered to walk or have princess in the cold for 10mins. It came to a head when I pointed out to a car I was not willing to walk through the mud to avoid her car parked 95% % on the pavement. She gave it the “who are you to tell me where to park”. I pointed out the safety aspects of her turning the road into a chicane where kids are crossing. I pointed to all the staring mums with pushchairs who had zero chance of fitting past her car. All of the mums just turned their backs to me.

I ended it there with a “cant argue with stupid as she had more practice” comment and walked off. I changed my walk route to a nice farmers field where my dog runs about and I get lovely peace and quiet. All the time I am waiting for a bus or a car to seriously hurt one of those kids (especially in this current weather).

If mums are teaching their kids that they shouldn’t walk even 250yds, What chance have schools got to instill any good habits for keeping fit.

Maybe genetics means they are all unable to walk a few hundred metres.

This thread is bizarre, i’m not sure what everyone seems to be arguing about as there seems to be universal agreement on the central point.

Yeah, the issue I have is with the way that thin people view those who struggle to lose weight. Some people don’t put weight on easily, so they can have the odd cake now and then and it’s fine. Some people really struggle, so have to deprive themselves to a much greater extent. And some people genuinely love cake more than others, so not eating it is more of a deprivation. It’s people being shitty to each other that I can’t stand. People seem to say ‘I’m thin and it’s easy for me, so it is also easy for you, therefore you are morally inferior’, and that isn’t correct.

Energy Surplus = Energy from food that you eat – energy burned from living and exercising – energy in your shit

They yes I would, otherwise where else does the energy go?

Of course but the two negative terms in that equation vary a lot and, as Farooqi suggests, you may not have as much control over it as you think. You can control how much exercise you do, but that has other knock-on effects.

The disagreement is 99pc Molgrips writing down stuff he doesn’t agree with and then debunking it in the same post.

I don’t do that, you’ve mis-read.

100% blame the moms. Yes ok there are a few lazy dads, but in my experience it is 99.999999% the moms who do this.

What you’re telling me is that mothers take more responsibility than fathers for getting their kids to school.

Last time I went on a cut I lost half a stone in a matter of weeks – it’s easily done

If it was easily done most people would be thin.

Of course but the two negative terms in that equation vary a lot and, as Farooqi suggests, you may not have as much control over it as you think

Realistically there is only one term in that equation over which anyone has control and it’s the energy in term. So basically if someone want to lose weight the most effective way to do this is eat less. Moving more will help too but mostly it’s about eating less.

as Farooqi suggests, you may not have as much control over it as you think

No, that’s not what Farooqi’s study says at all. It just says there are alleles of genes that thin people have inherited This is not remarkable as there have been studies that show Obese people also have groups of genes that they have inherited. It doesn’t suggest that they have “most” or “much” control, and in fact…

almost all the evidence from genetic and physiological studies points to the fact that body weight is largely a reflection of how much we eat.

…is pretty much the start middle and finish of what you need to know for weight loss.

That some people find it hard, or you get upset by people telling you it’s easy, or unhelpful comments like “put the cake down, fatty” are completely beside the point.

Farooqi suggests, you may not have as much control over it as you think.

How does she know what we think? We may have more control than we think, her study does not back up that statement.

Worth a watch if you don’t think calories in vs calories out is the whole story:

Jezza Clarkson though, triplets surely!

Baby name suggestions?

Can I just say that I couldn’t give a stuff if people are knowingly eating and drinking themselves into corpulence and an early death?

Just don’t sit next to me on the bloody plane, that’s all…   🙄

Carry on.

Just don’t sit next to me on the bloody plane, that’s all… 🙄

https://news.sky.com/video/plane-obesity-row-over-seat-space-11621270

she’s got a point though, she’s paid for a seat to sit on, so have the fatties next to her but they are ocupying more than a seat…

My face when I see someone overcomplicating nutrition in a bid for more followers or financial gain.-Sustainable fat…

Posted by James Smith on Wednesday, February 6, 2019

Saw this. Thought of this thread.

Kicking off on a United flight? She’s brave.

The chat about insulin and what not is purely an attempt to understand what is happening. That guy’s confrontational tone is not helpful either.

What about gut-bacteria? Isn’t that supposed to burn a load of calories for us?
So some of what keeps the skinny, skinny is in their shite?

I found I gained weight whilst banned from this forum. Just 3 days of swallowing other peoples #### on here and I’ve lost 2kg.

Pom Bears anyone?

none left…

Neither is Molly coddling the majority

Pun intended 😉

https://news.sky.com/video/plane-obesity-row-over-seat-space-11621270

she’s got a point though, she’s paid for a seat to sit on, so have the fatties next to her but they are ocupying more than a seat…

Is she fat-ist or is it possibly something else I wonder… the flight is half empty, not difficult to move seat for a bit more space without being a walloper about it, is it?

In saying that – if I was on flight sandwiched in-between two large folk spilling over onto my lap & had nowhere else to go, I would not be amused – i’d be taking it up with the airline though (in as polite a manner as possible)

That PT bloke up there has popped up in a few things i’ve seen – comes across as a bit arrogant but I find it difficult to disagree with most of what he says, he had a good rant on “cheat days” a while back, essentially if you need “cheat days” from your diet, it’s a shit diet & sitting on the couch stuffing 9 pizzas into your face will undo all the previous good work & then some.

Ultimately, you can’t out-train a bad diet – i’ve been trying for years & with a bit of self-control on the cake-front i’d easily be 10% lighter, during the summer I average about 100 miles per week commuting & winter it’s about 60-80 so there’s plenty of calories to spare in my diet. But my clothes still fit me & I like a beer and a pastry now and again so meh.

I found I gained weight whilst banned from this forum. Just 3 days of swallowing other peoples #### on here and I’ve lost 2kg.

Amateur. You should have learnt not to swallow by now.

Is she fat-ist

I’d say the bloke to her right is fatist.

It is something i have always wanted to understand in greater depth, yes there is the obvious that if you eat to excess, then there is a good chance you will gain weight, yes if you diet, you may lose weight.

But it clearly has so much more to it than that, socio-economic reasons, hormones, age, sex,e etc.

I have always been a “big lad” my weight tends to go between 100-110kgs, and this really does not change even with extreme amounts of dieting or exercise. Whilst i have friends who are 9 stone, who rarely exercise, who eat take away constantly and drink alcohol to excess, their BMI deeming them underweight, whilst mine deems me obese.

I only ever lose a good amount of weight, if i diet or exercise to an extreme, an extreme that is unsustainable.

For example, 14 months of commuting by bike to work, between 38 to 58 miles a day, 5 days a week, consuming around 2100-2200 calories a day (any less and i could not function), i lost about 2kgs in the first month then nothing more.

I rode Torino-Nice rally and lost about 3kgs last year, thats riding for 10+ hours a day with 2000-3000m of climbing each day for 7 days, within 2 weeks of being home (and purposefully eating well, to try and keep it off), went straight back on, all my food pretty much is home cooked.

I have played rugby at an international level and have been a soldier, all whilst carrying a good amount of “podge” around my middle.

I did Dry January, not a drop of alcohol passed these lips, and was ill for the last 10 days of it where food consumption was halved, again not a pound lost.

It is really is not just simply a case of calories in/ calories out.

I only had to watch my daughter become painfully thin just before her Type 1 diabetes (no not the one from eating too many sweets) despite the increased amount of food she ate, to see that insulin production has has quite an impact, which i know is an extreme example.

I have simply lived to learn with being a big lad, i am happy when i go to the doctors and they tell me my blood pressure is normal, and that my heart is healthy, whilst the skinny ones can takes all the photos of themselves for Instagram..