had a quick search but stw threads on this subject seem a good few years old now, so ill try a new one.

3 bed bungalow, had extension done not so long back, so not all windows need changing, but we’ll be going white pvc to match the extension, both for uniformity of looks, and price. id guess its the cheapest.

existing windows are around 20 yrs old and we mostly get pretty bad mould in the reveals that we have to try and keep on top of. also the wallpaper starts peeling in these reveals. always seem to struggle with condensation in our house (4 adults). im no expert, but people suggest the windows arent as efficient as they used to be and this could cause some of our problems. im not convinced myself, but ive got to admit some of them dont operate as well as they might and its maybe time to change them.

mrs punk has arranged for a few quotes, and unfortunately the dreaded salesman is still a thing of the present. tried telling him we just want a price, no sales b*ll*cks, but im afraid we still had all the usual play-acting.
“look at my tablet, all the red dots show how busy we are in your area” very good, just the price please.
“will you do me a favour and watch a couple of videos showing how good our products look?” no, we wont be signing anything today, just a price so we can compare against others, if you make the shortlist we’ll look into it further.
“we’ll give you an offer, then ill give you another offer, valid until my car drives away”. ok, i dont care how you come to the price, just give me a price please.
“what do you think of that price? is it what you were expecting?” it sounds reasonable, i didnt really have a number in mind, its neither higher or lower than i would have expected.
“let me just ring my boss, see if we can give a further discount” i looked sadly at my wife :-/ no really, you dont have to do this.
“ill just put the call on loudspeaker so we can all hear each other.” rightyo
“thats good, a bit more off, what do you think of that?” lovely.
“i know you said you dont want to sign anything today but just £100 deposit will secure that price.” it may well do but we wont be paying anything or signing anything today.

now as it stands, the price wasnt toooo bad, £3300 for 7 windows, but because of the sales pitch i dont really want to use them as i just dont trust anyone who plays that game. just be a genuine bloke and tell me the lowest youll do them for from the start.
it was safestyle btw if that means anything to anyone? ‘grade A windows, non-recycled pvc’, altho that means nowt to me, they may all do that.
we’ll be getting a bit of a cross-section of quotes from the leading brands plus locals i think, but im just dreading the salesmen :-/

anyways, ive been googling away, people say a good fitter makes the difference, some say it doesnt its all about the product. ive half a mind to attempt them myself with a mate, but….. im not a good window fitter, just somebody who likes having a go at stuff to save money, so would i be making a mistake to go down this route? would there be a decent cost saving, or would the windows cost that much for me to buy that i may as well go professional anyway.

id be interested on hearing singletrackworlds thoughts on DG quality, companies to recommend/avoid, self-installs, anything really.

thanks

The advice to come will be to avoid safestyle like the plague.

We are the reverse experience the other day, knock on the door, don’t worry I’m not going to quote you, not interested? Any failed units? if you just want just a window we recommend you wait do two as that’s a day’s work and keeps the price down

Flyer is now stuffed in the drawer for the day we do think about it

anyways, ive been googling away, people say a good fitter makes the difference, some say it doesnt its all about the product. ive half a mind to attempt them myself with a mate, but….. im not a good window fitter, just somebody who likes having a go at stuff to save money, so would i be making a mistake to go down this route? would there be a decent cost saving, or would the windows cost that much for me to buy that i may as well go professional anyway.

A lot of firms use contractors , my preference would be to get someone who uses staff

Avoid Safestyle like the plague.

I was a self employed window installer for nearly 20 years and always hated the reputation our industry had because of the sales practices you have described above if you can find a one man band with a good reputation in your area this is a good way to go, as for fitting yourself it depends on the age and type of property you have, some modern houses are a doddle and others generally older ones would be better left to a professional.
As far as condensation is concerned buy a dehumidifier and keep it running overnight as the year starts to get colder then day and night in the depths of winter, condensation will always appear on the coldest thing in a room regardless of what it is. If you want further advice on fitting post up a piccie of your house and ill get back to you.

Oh and avoid Safestyle like the plague.

The condensation/damp may have little to do with the existing windows. Does condensation form on the window frames/panes, or is it only on the reveals?

I get quotes from smaller local suppliers/fitters. If you know a builder, they will sometimes use and recommend a local contractor

http://www.ggf.org.uk/publication/condensation_some_causes_some_advice

If you download this from the GGF it gives all the info you need regarding condensation.

Avoid Safestyle like the plague.

I used them back in the nineties,never again.The windows were great but the sales people were a nightmare.Like I say never again..
What I learned from the experience is to find out who your friends use & recommend.Ask who your’e mates have used & who they avoid, get some quotes.
Last year I had all the glazing done in my current place & fortunately for me one of my mates used to work in the trade so he put me onto a excellent local company.

The advice to come will be to avoid safestyle like the plague.

Avoid Safestyle like the plague.

I used them back in the nineties,never again.The windows were great but the sales people were a nightmare.Like I say never again..

Oh and avoid Safestyle like the plague.

i forgot to put in my OP that safestyle seemed to be well recommended on the trustpilot reviews, but you know what they say…… one singletrack review is worth a hundred trustpilot reviews 😉
i shall take your advice and avoid like the plague.

If you want further advice on fitting post up a piccie of your house and ill get back to you.

these are the 7 windows we’ll be replacing. half considered doors too but i dont think thats really needed, so just the windows for now.

If you download this from the GGF it gives all the info you need regarding condensation.

thank you, ill download for a perusal later.

cheers

people suggest the windows arent as efficient as they used to be and this could cause some of our problems

I’d have thought the opposite is true. Do the windows have trickle vents?

Face brick, moderish bungalow, window installation doesn’t get easier than that .
First thing is are you going to fit tilt & turn so like for like the only reason I ask is for fire escape at the moment it is excellent and comply’s with what used to be the FENSA regs ( I left the UK a couple of years after FENSA started and have no idea if it is still going or not’ you would need to check up on that).
Choose a supplier and ask how they fill in a survey form for tilt & turn windows i.e if they view from inside or outside to determine if a casement is on the right or the left and which side the handle goes on.
They may offer a surveying service for a few quid which does mean they are responsible for getting it right.
As you have face brick to measure to take three sizes for the width top,middle and bottom use the smallest size and knock off 5 to 8mm to allow for a small gap around window.
The height is a little different as their will be a piece of steel about 10MM thick which holds up the top bricks, so as before but from the steel
to the underneath the cill three measurements take the smallest and knock a bit off, if you are at all unsure take one of the smaller windows out then temporary refit it .Also check sizes internally(belt & braces)
So to fit them first cut external cills to same width as window screw them on then glue end caps(super glue) remove old window and clean old silicone off reveals (scraper and or wire brush).
Bed of mortar along the bottom If their is enough room or leave dry if not.
Check for level then fix hinge side first usually three 8 or 10mm bolts (expansions are best) top and bottom bolts about 12 to 15cm away from the corner.
Before bolting handle side check that when the casement is being closed the top and bottom contact the frame at the same time this is very important for smooth functioning after installation.If it doesn’t use shims to correct it before bolting in. Fix bottom with one bolt for a one metre wide window two or more for wider windows all fixings should have a packer between frame and brick to hold everything firm these can be adjusted for level:plumb etc.
To fix into steel plate buy a few long series 5.5 metal drill bits then use standard brown plug and wood screw.
Silicone seal sides and bottom with clear silicone if you cut the nozzle to the the correct size just lay it up without smoothing down with your finger this will look better in years to come when the silicone gets dirty.
As for the top if you can see the steel use a plastic strip to cover as it will go rusty if not seal in the same way as the sides .
Internally fill any gaps with plaster if you are redecorating or stick on a D mould to finish off for now and remove in the future when you redecorate.
Ill post more on installing the DG unit after I’ve looked for some
photos.

Edit any bolts or screws in the bottom of frame where water potentially passes by on it’s way to the drain holes should be covered with a blob of silicone.

We used Safestyle in our old house. Yes the salesmen are a pain, but we knew they would be, they started off at something like £28k (yes, really) and ended up with around £8k if I remember rightly, including double front doors. We had a LOT of very big windows and stained glass top panes on the front ones (12 in total!).
Amazingly, they fitted them all in one day, I think there were about 6 blokes doing it. The windows looked great.

Worth reviewing details around the existing windows and reveals, 4 adults do produce moisture (breathing out!), seals between windows and walls can suffer over time and let draughts in = more condensation around reveals. Looks like existing windows have trickle vents or can vent on a latch. If you change windows look at details at reveals, are you planning on changing plaster junction, make sure window frame to reveal is sealed properly. Also check cavity wall and reveal DPC, devil is in the detail. Windows are close to front face so sealing at edge is important and needs maintenance. My everest windows are well over 20 yrs old, windows OK, junctions need attention.

The hinge side is on the left and the red packers are the only ones left in when finished, different thickness packers are inserted into the highest horizontal red block to adjust the casement up or down, other adjustments exist on hinges.
Fixed panes are simply two horizontal packers left and right, different thicknesses to to make it look central.

Good Luck 🙂

Edit… any damp problems caused by failed DPC would be penetrating damp and not condensation.

Just to say, what great helpful posts. ^

You’re getting mould on the reveals because that brickwork is colder than the rest – have you had the cavities filled?

I’d have thought the opposite is true. Do the windows have trickle vents?

mate, i dont understand that either 🙂 why get all singing all dancing helium/argon/kryptonite filled units when youre better off letting air get through?? its voodoo i tell ya.

Just to say, what great helpful posts. ^

agreed, thanks ever so much, just got in so ill have a proper read of that little lot when im settled.
above and beyond the call of duty, thank you.

FWIW wife doesnt want the tilt and turn ones now, just normal openers with smaller windows at top that open too.

thanks again.

EDIT:

have you had the cavities filled?

yes, we have cavity wall insulation.

You are supposed to have something like 80cm/sq worth of ventilation in a room (a tennis ball diameter circle). You do need an air change in a house as people produce a lot of moisture..breathing, cooking, showering, drying washing etc. That would be my first port of call. When DG units fail you get condensation between the panes not on the inside.

66deg GUIDE TO CONDENSATION.

Imagine you are a Victorian cyclist lying in bed after a long day on the penny farthing the room you are in has huge volume with a high ceiling the sash windows rattle,gaps in the floor boards poorly fitting doors all conspire to let loads of air into your room , the fire is lit and draws air from within the room up the flu and away and draughts exist all over the place.
Compare this to our modern room it’s much smaller and well insulated not a breath of air can get past the tightly fitting carpets with thick rubber underlay or from the airtight window seals no air comes from other rooms and the central heating doesn’t have a flu constantly drawing air through the property.
Oh and we spend all day building up the moisture level from many sources.
Condensation in a property can be bad for your health so it’s better to do something about it . Changing your windows for new ones will make no difference to your condensation problem, in order to sort it out you need to look at where all the moisture comes from.

1 Baths & Showers.
2 Plant pots.
3 Breathing.
4 sweating.
5 Boiling kettles.
6 cooking.
7 Fish tanks.
8 Cat & dog water bowls.
9 Clothes drying.

All of these are constantly increasing the moisture level in your house, so here are some solutions to reduce the level of moisture.

1 Baths & Showers
Hose the family down in garden if its too time consuming invest in a Karcher to speed the job along.

2 Plant pots.
Get yourself down to Ikea and buy plastic plants.

3 Breathing.
Stop breathing, now I must admit to not trying this one I knew someone who did but he is sadly no longer with us to explain how it went.

4 Sweating.
Try wearing a wetsuit indoors.

5 Boiling kettles.
Ban the drinking of tea and coffee….beer only and it has to go down in one.

6 Cooking.
Jamie Oliver and Delia Smith should be deported and if you get hungry buy all your meals from Greggs (like any sane MTBer would do).

7 Fish tanks.
Empty the tank then place garden canes across the top and suspend cardboard cut outs of fish from different lengths of cotton you can imagine you are John Noakes whilst doing it.

8 Cat & dog water bowls.
Put them in the greenhouse I’m sure they will get on fine.

9 Clothes drying.
Dispense with unnecessary garments and go everywhere in the buff.

As you no doubt can tell some these solutions could prove difficult so the alternative is to carry on living as you are and buy a dehumidifier.

On the question of the trickle vent which seems daft to me to have a source of cold air above the inner pane of double glazing, you have to think of it from the point of view of building regs its any easy place to install a vent to try and get some air into our sealed up houses and as windows are fairly frequently replaced it gets a lot of vents into a lot of houses but a vent in the wall would achieve the same thing just more costly to do.

Slight hijack – anyone recommend any window fitters/companies in the Peak District area?

Even better if they know what they’re talking about in terms of acoustic laminate.

66deg has forgotten heat to combat condensation.

It does reduce signs of condensation but I find dehumidifiers more effective and you must also consider the living conditions.

Signs of condensation…IE condensation.

Keeping a home warmer and ventilation is better for health. Dehumidifier doesn’t do this.

Of course it may not be as affordable or practical.

You are not wrong most people don’t have the heating on and windows open at the same time.

update on this with a decision to make.

shortlist is down to two.

choice 1. local firm with a good few years reputation, £3100 with sills. rep seems a good chap, knows me dad from when they worked together back in the day.

choice 2. our mate who’s in the business, doing them cheap for us, £2300 without sills. could probably do sills for £200 more if asked.

we’re trying to compare like for like. local firm have looked at our mates samples as we asked them if there was any marked difference. he says they do ‘5 chamber’ whereas mates windows are ‘3 chamber’. he also said the seal or gasket was thicker on theirs.

both give a 10yr guarantee on units, 5 on the glass and 1 on the furniture i think, only difference is mate cant give a fensa certificate whereas local firm can. oh and mates windows are made by stern fenster apparently. heard of them but no idea whether theyre any good or not.

now, i havent a clue whether 5 chamber is actually that much different to 3, or what value a fensa certificate is. £800’s worth?

so…… any advice on which way to go please?

thanks

I got 5 windows and a front door supplied and fitted for £1k by approaching one of the fitters at the local double glazing company/manufacturer. He came round in his own time to measure up then placed an order and came back at a weekend to fit with his mate. No guarantee with the work but worth the risk to me. All the fitters do it apparantly.

Who’s profile are they using. The fabricators can be anyone, the profile manufacturer is the key. Plus there’s a huge variation in the quality of the hardware.
*posting from the car park of one of the big extruders* 😉

I found a well recommended local joiner, got him to source good windows – Veka iirc – and price me for the job. That way I know it’s being done by an actual tradesman, not some jumped up groundworker who’s now a ‘window fitter’ and is cheaper than a sales company.

I self-installed triple-glazed PVC units from an Internet site (Brico-Fenêtres but they are on the wrong side of the channel). They came with fixing kits and were accurate to the mm. The 75mm deep frames meant I was able to get insulation right into the frame which reduced the thermal bridge. The difference in sound insulation is noticeable compared with double-glazing. No condensation but that’s as much keeping the air humidity down as the uw of 1.0.

DIY was easier than I expected, and I’m sure I took a lot more trouble with an accurate fit and the insulation than a professional would.

Edit: It took a few hours with Google but a paper chase through company registers shows the Internet site is owned by Biason, a highly reputable manufacturer that uses St Gobain glass and high quality profiles – the windows are the same! We picked the windows up from the Biason factory. As Wrightyson says the profiles are the key and there are very few manufacturers, a big factory in Poland supplies much of the German and French industry.

by approaching one of the fitters at the local double glazing company/manufacturer.

spose thats what we’re doing with our mate, which has knocked £800 off, just wondering whether thats enough of a discount to go ‘3 chamber’ insted of 5 and no fensa cert. dont really know how ‘valuable’ these omissions are.

ill ask them what profiles theyre using then. i assume theyll know the name and thatll mean something to some of you?
and say stern fenster have a decent rep for windows (havent looked into this yet), can they still churn out cheap sh1te too, or would all their profiles be the same?

thanks

Since 2002 most domestic installations must meet Building Regs. The FENSA certificate is registered with the LA and certifies compliance

If you want to sell the property then the buyer will want to see compliance with Building Regs and an unseemly rush to get insurance/retrospective certification will follow

You can buy a fensa certificate from the council, phone up ask them to come round and inspect them and they’ll write you one out.

Phone the building control at the council and ask how much they would charge

been on holiday and also a spell of procrastinating, so getting back onto this now……….

You can buy a fensa certificate from the council, phone up ask them to come round and inspect them and they’ll write you one out.

Phone the building control at the council and ask how much they would charge
rang em and its not quite that simple. we’d have to ‘apply’ to building control for the work to be done, £200 all in and they come and inspect afterwards.

If you want to sell the property then the buyer will want to see compliance with Building Regs and an unseemly rush to get insurance/retrospective certification will follow

no chance you could say theyve always been in since buying (pre-2002?)

Who’s profile are they using. The fabricators can be anyone, the profile manufacturer is the key. Plus there’s a huge variation in the quality of the hardware.

finally got to the bottom of this. the proper company use Spectus profile and manufacture it themselves.
our mate says their profile is Deceuninck and i think he said they get em from stern fenster.

those names mean anything to anyone? one better than the other?

thanks a lot

Double Glazing, get the facts here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p050hr6t

If you wander around your neighborhood and look at all the various windows fitted, you will see the cheap stuff in that the frames are very bulky and the glass area is reduced. You need the thinnest frames with the best U values.

Where are you, just scanned most of the rest of the posts but I have a mate nr bournemouth who does no bullshit windows etc. Just replaced my knackered units without replacing the frames etc. Saved me a fortune. Decent bloke and really fair bit you’ll spend a fortune in tea!

im in lincoln mate but thanks anyway.

No probs. He does work away but not that far!

no chance you could say theyve always been in since buying (pre-2002?)

That ranks with, “the dog ate my homework” 🙂
The first window or door that is opened will likely have a date of manufacture on the profile, and any BS number on safety glass may date that too.
It’ll rapidly become a world of pain for an easily obtainable (at the time) certificate

ok thanks, thats that particular avenue of sneakiness closed off to me then 🙂

any word on the profile comparison?

the proper company use Spectus profile and manufacture it themselves.
our mate says their profile is Deceuninck and i think he said they get em from stern fenster.
those names mean anything to anyone? one better than the other?

thanks

back from hols and just bumping this as the missus is hassling me to finally get something sorted. yeah i know, my hearts just not in thinking about double glazing! 😀

so…..as above, spectus ‘5 chamber’ (proper company) vs deceuninck ‘3 chamber’ (our mate) mean anything to anyone?

The first window or door that is opened will likely have a date of manufacture on the profile, and any BS number on safety glass may date that too.
It’ll rapidly become a world of pain for an easily obtainable (at the time) certificate

i hear you mate, but do you know for defo that it would be a world of pain, or could it be easily rectified by asking the council to come out and check if and when it was picked up in the future? “sorry i didnt know/my dog ate the homework” 😉
£200 is worth saving if theres no definite need to pay it.

thanks