If I had the funds I’d get a coach, but I don’t so I’m trying to figure out how to maximise my fitness on the bike – I have some decent sized goals for next year.

My assumption was that I would batter myself on the turbo trainer following a Sufferfest training plan, but I’ve bumped into the MAF Method from the bloke behind this book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Big-Book-Endurance-Training-Racing/dp/1616080655/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1542386045&sr=1-1&keywords=big+book+of+endurance

Superficially it sounds appealing as I am middle aged and don’t want to run myself down, but my immediate concern is that this approach would need hours and hours each week – again something I can’t do. Is this a rebadging of old-school base training?

Does anyone have any experience of this book or method or thoughts to share? Thanks.

What are your objectives? The Tour Divide, Ten under the Ben and Ard Rock would all require somewhat different physiological needs and therefore training.

Is this just Zone 1 & 2 riding with a different name?

Disclaimer – I know the bloke who set up and runs sufferfest….

But it’s good fun, well designed and has certainly helped me during injury to get fitness back and I’ve got a good mate who does a lot of his training through that and it’s going very well for him. The Yoga extras etc are really good to for some extra training. Only downside is lack of android support. They do a free week so give it a go – after that it’s no obligation going on. /’.

Yes. Someone who I worked with swore by it.  He was a strict paleo weirdo and figured it suited him as he couldn’t eat carbs.

On the discussions I had about it, it sounds like absolute bollocks as it uses a formula to calculate your training HR based on age. Which lo and behold turns out to be low enough to be zone 1/2 exactly as you say.

I say batter yourself. Who’s got time for hours and hours of long walks?

I think this kind of slow to go fast training is primarily aimed at those who don’t have a good base fitness as it lets them build their stamina. If you’re competing, you’ve got to go fast to get faster.

As a middle aged man myself, I use this z2 system as an excuse to trail run as slow and long as I like, saving the all out efforts for on my bike. Much more fun way of doing things. You’d be on your bike for hours and hours to get any decent amount of z2 work in.

Current trend, especially for middle aged + is to do intervals and resistance (weight) training off the bike.

As we get older we lose muscle mass. Cycling does not build muscle.

Referenced from Fast after Fifty by Joe Friel

This is currently the emerging trend in triathlon circles I’d say. I’ve just read the book Primal Endurance book which is good. And I follow a guy on Facebook, Simon Ward (x5 UK triathlon coach of the year) who is advocating this. But the key thing is that you’re doing 5-10% of your training at super high intensity, 92%+ of heart rate, and the vast majority of it at say 70%HR / aerobic, only really doing threshold training 6-8 weeks before your A race. Worth doing some reading Certainly worked for me and my running, lots of very slow steady runs, some sprint sessions, and two months later I’m doing PBs on all my regular runs. MAF HR is surprisingly slow, but is very good for building heart and lung capacity, and fat burning, but one of the key things is that it’s relatively easy on your muscles – so you’ve got less cortisol in your body and you’re recovering quicker between sessions. Worth doing some reading and Simon has some great podcasts too.

Sounds just like LSD

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_slow_distance

I used to use this method as a runner, and yes it works.

I tried this for 3 months at the start of the year, typically doing an hour most weekdays and anything from 2-4 on either Saturday or Sunday. I stuck to the programme pretty religiously, and didn’t do any strength training or high intensity work during that time.

On the plus side I felt refreshed after workouts, with a sort of ‘glowing feeling. There was no problem recovering from them. Before I started I would regularly have allergic reactions turn into mini colds due to having a weak immune system. I didn’t have a single instance of that while doing MAF.

On the negative side it didn’t make a blind bit of difference to my fitness. I trained on zwift using a smart trainer and heart rate belt so had lots of data with which to evaluate my performance.  I saw no change over the whole period, if anything there was a slight downward trend.

It could be that I don’t respond to that type of training or that I didn’t do enough volume.  The book doesn’t give you any guidance about volume which is annoying, but looking at other LSD plans suggests that I wasnt doing enough.

The other issue I had with it is that it is boring. Yes I exercise to get fitter but I also want to have fun.

I’m my second year of being coached and whilst no means Nino, I’d have said I was as fit as the average mid pack racer, before I started.  However;

Last year he had me doing lost of long slow rides, based on the fact he identifies between the two fuel sources; carbs and glycogen.   Basically, Glycogen last maximum 90 mins, mostly less and is used above the Z2 ceiling.  Once this is gone, essentially your body defaults to stored fats and carbs and back into Z2 which is also a much less efficient metabolism.

So you run out of batteries, and defer to Z2, of which stored fat etc can essentially fuel for days and days.  Now, imagine you could push that Z2 up, so that when you fell back into Z2 your Z2 was still “fast”.  You’d still be riding fast, compared to others.

Essentially, properly long slow training builds up the body in the right way and increases your Z2.   Last year mine went up 50w at both ends.   For racing today this basically means when my batteries are gone, I can still sit at circa 210w for hours, whereas that was 180w the year before*   As a Marathon XC racer over 3-5hrs that’s important.

As an example, all the Grand Tour riders are riding in the Peleton for most of the day in thier Z2, which is spectacularly higher than ours (I think Froomes Z2 average is something like 290w) only using Glycogen for breaks climbs and sprints.   Thats why they can ride for 3 weeks in a Tour, its mostly Z2 rides and good/lots of nutrition.

* I know that’s not 50w difference but its a little more complex that I’m making out.

Lucasshmucas – were you doing any super high intensity stuff (+92% of heart rate) in addition to the MAF? My understanding is that it’s this polarized training that brings the benefits and that you wouldn’t get such benefits just training at the lower intensity.

Fat max – from my perspective yes also.

<span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”>Superficially it sounds appealing as I am middle aged and don’t want to run myself down, but my immediate concern is that this approach would need hours and hours each week – again something I can’t do. Is this a rebadging of old-school base training?</span>

Does anyone have any experience of this book or method or thoughts to share? Thanks.

It will depend on what those goals are. I’ve not read the book or had experience of trad roadie LSD training patterns etc but I did do a bunch of training over 6 months that used base-build, go-slow-to-go-fast and high volume low intensity combined with a small amount of very HI turbo work. It was a balance that didn’t run me down and got really good results but it took 15-20hrs a week. 12hrs plus of Z2 inc some Z1, 1hr max of threshold level, ‘kin horrible turbo work that I only got through because I’d put so much time in elsewhere in the week. Some SS MTB rides up to 3hrs for fun and required strength work.

That amount of time and the LI/HI split was based on prep for racing all day, short sleeps etc for a week or 2 though. I’m not sure how the plan would be adapted if you were looking to do 6-12hr or 24hr events. My climbing pace on a short ride went up but not hugely – my endurance and ability to keep that ~10% higher pace going felt dramatically increased though. I guess if you re-balanced the proportion of low intensity to high intensity work you’d get a different result suited to 24hr etc.

I do think you need more time than most give to a plan though – I had 2x 3 month blocks and that works. 3 months doesn’t seem long enough if you need adaptation to stress as well as increase in cardio fitness – try to do both at the same time and you may get ill or weaker before you can get stronger.

Simon Ward’s polarized videos that explain his thinking – worth a watch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeh6P9_da2U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcNfYq8GVuw and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4VWobzDUG8.

Fat max – no, no high intensity work as I wanted to stick to the MAF protocol and he doesn’t allow it during the base build period.

Jameso – what you suggest makes a lot of sense to me. I can see how that would work as it’s more volume than I was doing with a healthy little injection of high intensity.

It could also be that I’m a non-responder to MAF type training.

“It could also be that I’m a non-responder to MAF type training.”

More likely that as you only followed half the instructions and only did half the protocol (base period) and did not ramp it up. Only train to go slow and you’ll only go slow.

I have had great success with similar both on my self and informally coached friends and family using what sounds like a similar technique.

People who previously have gone out and tried to do big gains quick type training plans advertised in the rag press and got them selves Ill.

I always break it down into a Z2 build phase 4 on 1 off ramp up intensity phase then as the chosen A race comes up ramp it up to heavy event specific intervals.  While I’ve not got any podiums out of them –ive have people who have been convinced by Past experience they will not finish the event.

No one likes base training , people think it’s unnecessary but to build any kind of day on day training intensity it’s essential.

How you get there by any fancy name is unimportant just don’t skip base.

I really struggle with Z2 training on a turbo. My training plan has me doing 2 hour endurance rides, which is under 50% of my ftp.

The boredom is just too much, 40 mins in and I’m wanting to go harder. One hour in and it feels like I’ve been on the turbo for 4 hours and want to get off.

i find it really difficult to stick to the easy training rides. Even when out on the road I find it almost impossible to ride at under 140 watts consistently. I’m always sneaking up and without realising it I’m at 170 watts and have been for a period of time.

Much prefer the hiit with Sufferfest as it suits my lifestyle and lack of patience more.

Much prefer the hiit with Sufferfest as it suits my lifestyle and lack of patience more.

I can imagine, 2hrs on the turbo must be dull as —-. Get outside for base miles. I think I discovered riding for the sake of ‘just riding’ when I started doing long, strictly limited Z2 rides. It’s OK to pootle for hours on end and it does you good in the end, you just need to have some faith and patience. I really enjoyed knowing I was ‘training’ but w/o the urge to go faster most of the time. Fast is fun but fast all the time won’t make you as fast as you could be, nowhere near.

If you want to add work to a steady ride, try getting up all the hills in Z2 but also in the big ring. 20rpm and it’s hard, builds strength but doesn’t stress you.

Basically, Glycogen last maximum 90 mins, mostly less and is used above the Z2 ceiling.  Once this is gone, essentially your body defaults to stored fats and carbs and back into Z2 which is also a much less efficient metabolism.

That’s not quite true. To ride with no glycogen is to be bonked. I assume you know what that feels like? It’s more like you body uses glycogen all the time riding but at lower power levels it also consumes significant stored fat too. The pro-riders aren’t doing long rides because their Z2 is so high but because they eat a lot on their rides too.

<span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”>The boredom is just too much, 40 mins in and I’m wanting to go harder. One hour in and it feels like I’ve been on the turbo for 4 hours and want to get off.</span>

I know some people need goals but this to me is just a way to ruin the fun of cycling.

After years of back problems I feel lucky to be able to ride without too much pain.

Mostly slow (steady) with a bit of proper hard effort is basically how every aerobic athlete trains in every sport (possibly some at the ultra-endurance end never bother with the hard efforts). It doesn’t need a fad or a fashion to justify it.

The pro-riders aren’t doing long rides because their Z2 is so high

No, my point is they ride faster than us because of that, and don’t need to empty the Glycogen stores at those speeds.

Like i said, I simplified it.  The point is long slow riding develops mitochondria and allows a rider to rider harder in Z2.  As you say yourself, you’ll be able to ride longer in Z2, than going beyond.  Of two riders riding alongside each other at 250w, the one Riding above Z2 will fail a lot sooner.

It is true though that before you bonk, your body will fail into z2 first.  If racing long races it makes sense then that z2 is as high as possible.

Anyone on here rubbishing it actually a podium contender or just not able to stick to a plan and saying it’s crap because they lack the will power to stick to it?

It’s always worked for me when I decide I want to bother the podium at events.