There are basic trails in Pollok Park which have just had a lot of work done on them and the improvements are very good however the continued presence of walkers on the trails is very frustrating. Culture and Sport Glasgow are responsible for the park and the trails therefore I would encourange anyone that uses the trails to appeal to them to remedy the problem.

http://www.csglasgow.org/

info@csglasgow.org

Here is the email I’ve sent them today

Dear Sir/ Madam,

I wish to raise concerns regarding the lack of adequate signage informing non-cyclists of the existence and nature of the purpose built cycle trails within Pollok Park. As a cyclist with over 10 years experience I was a regular user of the trails in the park, however more and more encounters with walkers, dog walkers and joggers on the trails led me to more or less stop using them a couple of years ago. Any time I encountered non-cyclists on the trail I endeavoured to explain to them in a polite manner the nature of the trails and the risk posed to themselves and the cyclists. Reactions to this ranged from complete silence with blank vacant stares to a tirade of abuse and foul language. Having analysed the risk I decided the threat of a serious accident outweighed the benefits of a purpose built trail less than 5 minutes from my home and I ceased from using the trails.

I was recently pleased to discover there had been extensive work done to the trails to remedy drainage problems, improve the surface to make the trails more sustainable and the introduction of a new “Black” graded section with technical features demanding a high level of rider skill. I visited the trails on Sunday March 15th to see the work undertaken and I’m happy to say the work appears to have been very successful. It was with dismay however that I noted the continued lack of signage informing park users of the dangers associated with walking on the trails. There were several other cyclists using the trails that day ranging from novices to experienced riders. These experienced riders are tackling the trails at high speed. On 6 separate occasions within a 2 hour period I encountered joggers, walkers and dogs on the trail. Not beside the trail, actually on the trail itself. There are absolutely no warning signs informing them that they should not be on these trails. While the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 has improved access to the countryside for everyone, the trails within the park fall under Chapter 2, Subsection 6 of the act, “Land over which access rights not exercisable”. I wish to highlight this section in particular:

Land over which access rights not exercisable
(1) The land in respect of which access rights are not exercisable is land—
(e) which has been developed or set out—
(i) as a sports or playing field; or
(ii) for a particular recreational purpose;

As these trails are way-marked and defined they fall under the definition of land developed for a particular recreational purpose, therefore signage should be erected informing the public of this. If this is not done, it is only a matter of time before a serious accident occurs. On too many occasions I have encountered walkers when rounding a blind corner at high speed, narrowly avoiding an accident. As you have graded the trails Green, Blue, Red & Black, it is to be expected that a certain level of skill is necessary to ride each trail and it should be fully expected that highly skilled riders will cycle at higher speeds. Furthermore, as this has now been registered as an issue with you, in the event of a serious accident Culture & Sport Glasgow and Glasgow City Council could be held liable as they neglected to act when they were forewarned about the potential dangers and failed to take an appropriate course of action to mitigate the risk.

Cycling is a booming sport in Scotland but the central belt remains bereft of decent purpose built off road cycling trails and to have these facilities in the middle of a major city is a real bonus. They will only attract users though if they feel safe and confident on the trails which to my mind, they do not at the moment. If you visit any purpose built trail such as Carron Valley, Glentress or the other “7 Stanes” centres, you will see excellent signage at start and end of trails coupled with signage along the way warning walkers to stay off the trails. This along with education of park users would ensure a safe and harmonious environment for all park users. One person I spoke to informed me the park ranger had personally told her she could walk on the trails, which is incorrect under the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003. You would not walk across a football field or a tennis court while a match was being played and I fail to see why anyone would walk on a cycle trail.

The park is a wonderful place with a wide range of facilities for everyone to use but safe access to the cycling trails is being hampered by the points I’ve highlighted. I would appreciate your comments and feedback on these issues and your proposals to remedy the problems.

Yours sincerely

Bob Millar

Note: No doubt someone will question whether the clause in the Land Reform Act applies to bike trails. Yes, it’s not been tested in a legal sense but these trails have absolutely no signage to warn anyone so any improvement is a bonus. There are signs at the start of each trail indicating the “grading” and there are waymarker posts along the way with a bike symbol and the trail grade colour. Nothing else.

Now the trails are far from challenging but it’s a great facility that’s accessible to a lot of cyclists and there are a few areas where a crash would be horrendous i.e. a set of 4-5 steep, long, stairs you charge down then take a fast sharp turn to the left, but the left turn is a blind turn because of massive upturned tree at the bottom of the stairs. I nearly killed myself and an Alsation pup, a kid and the gormless parents that were standing behind the roots of this upturned tree completely hidden until you’re on top of them.

So what do you want? Signs telling walkers that it is dangerous to walk on the cycle trails or signs saying that walkers are banned from the cycles trails?

Would be nice:

….as this has now been registered as an issue with you, in the event of a serious accident Culture & Sport Glasgow and Glasgow City Council could be held liable as they neglected to act when they were forewarned about the potential dangers and failed to take an appropriate course of action to mitigate the risk.

[cynical] well that will be the end it all. GCC will remove all traces of mtb trails. alternatively maybe they are ‘all use’ for the cross country parkour fraternity. [/cynical]

Nice letter though and I fully agree.

Yes, that is the worry. 🙁

But having spoken, politely, to numerous people I’ve encountered it’s more a complete lack of awareness although you do get some people who are there out of sheer bloody mindedness “I was walking my dog here long before you bloody cyclists appeared” 🙄

They’ve put in a new black section. It’s not long but it’s a fairly big tabletop jump. On Sunday there were maybe 5 or 6 riders throwing themself off it. I observed one guy trundling through the middle of the area with his dog running around off the lead. Maybe it’s just me, but these riders were wearing full face helmets and jumping maybe 10 – 12 feet through the air and my own degree of self preservation would tell me that perhaps it’s not the safest bit for me to walk my dog!

When I lived in the south side I used to ride in Pollok Park once or twice a week. This was in the days before they built the new bike trails there. I’m sure you know of all the lovely singletrack I’m on about. I never had an issues sharing the trails with other people.

I can see where you’re coming from but I’m just no too happy with the idea of ‘banning’ people from things. I don’t suppose you would be happy if some of the trails at pollok park were walkers only – and if they were you might be tempted to ride them.

To be honest there are so many nice, natural trail there that I can’t understand why people would want to walk/run on the bike ones.

Yeah the “banning” aspect is an issue but anything to let people make an informed decision would be an improvement.

“Danger: High speed cyclists using the trail. Risk of injury or death”

It doesn’t “ban” anyone, but it lets people know of the danger.

A warning notice seems a fair enough thing to do and I would have thought some H&S rule would make one mandatory.

I really miss riding in Pollok Park 🙁

This thread has much to share with the ‘wrong way’ and ‘new (directional) signage’ threads.
Signage is all you can reasonably expect. Then sue the PArk the GCC and the pedestrian when you hit them* :-).

*I am against ruthless suing of people for minor incidents BTW.

Reactions to this ranged from complete silence with blank vacant stares to a tirade of abuse and foul language

in Glasgow? NEVER!

Even more shocking that it’s happening in Pollok 😉

Hi Bob,

I take you point as a regular user (at least once a week). I too was out on sunday and encountered the same problems. However, my thought is live and let live. I ride all over the park natural and man made and i would hate if we as bikers became confined to the puropse built trails. As good as they are, there are a lot of decent natural trails in the park.

I think the whole point of the outdoor access code is to make the countryside available to all by it users exercising concideration for one another. So give a walker/jogger a shout as you approach and they in turn will get out of the way. Its not exactly the north shore or morzine bike park so there’s little point getting stressed about it or taking life too seriously.

My concerns are borne out of a fear of injuring someone/thing and injuring myself, rather than “these are our trails, get the f*ck off them” attitude.

So give a walker/jogger a shout as you approach and they in turn will get out of the way

Tried that and I’ve had people refuse to move! And it’s hard to forewarn people when you’re coming round a blind corner. 🙁

Improved signage may be appropriate.

I do believe the sections of the Land Reform Act your refer to could be applied to cycle trails, however I don’t believe they would automatically apply. That is, if the land owner decided to develop trails and in so doing decided to segregate use then he could legally do so; however that is not to say that every cycle trail would automatically be for exclusive use of cyclists. The land owner may need planning permission to make such changes as it would in effect be removing the land from public access open space into a different designated land use – given the fuss over a few ropes in the trees I think you could expect opposition.

However if the LRA can be interpreted to mean that every cycle path is exclusively for bikes – have you considered what that would mean for every footpath?

Common sense, and a bit more tolerance of other park users would probably be good for you!

Common sense, and a bit more tolerance of other park users would probably be good for you!

Sigh…

This is nothing to do with tolerance.

There are tennis courts in the park. Would it be acceptable for people to walk across the court while people were playing a match?

There are football pitches in the park. Would it be acceptable for people to walk across the pitch while people were playing a match?

There are purpose built mountain bike trails in the park. Is it acceptable for people to walk along the trail while people are cycling down it?

These are not shared access paths. The trails were not built on existing paths. These trails don’t lead anywhere other than in a loop.

Elsewhere in the park there are shared paths and of course in these areas, you should be aware and give way to walkers, but is it too much to ask for people to respect a designated area for cycling????

Would you honestly think it acceptable for people to walk up singletrack trails at a trail centre?

BoardinBob – that letter is one way to get the trails ripped out. A question for you: what happens if, instead of someone walking along the trail round this blind bend, a fellow rider has stacked it badly and is sprawled across the trail and you cant stop?

Shared use trails work at Inners.

So you find people walking up the DH track at Inners?

Smee – Member

BoardinBob – that letter is one way to get the trails ripped out. A question for you: what happens if, instead of someone walking along the trail round this blind bend, a fellow rider has stacked it badly and is sprawled across the trail and you cant stop?

No answer to that one BB?

Sigh…

This is nothing to do with tolerance.Except that you are not tolerating other people on “your” trail. I agree with you many of them may be there without being aware of the purpose of the trail or the potential risk they are in and better signs would be justified. I don’t think those should necessarily say no pedestrians. Shared responsible use is the whole idea of the LRA, IMHO its not really acceptable to opt in and out of that when it suits.

There are tennis courts in the park. Would it be acceptable for people to walk across the court while people were playing a match?

There are football pitches in the park. Would it be acceptable for people to walk across the pitch while people were playing a match?

There are purpose built mountain bike trails in the park. Is it acceptable for people to walk along the trail while people are cycling down it?
I would suggest the analogy is however – when a competition is underway. So if a race was on I would see it as acceptable to close the trails to pedestrians etc. Likewise if there was a training session involving running up and down the pitches going on I would consider it OK to cut across the pitches provided I wasn’t getting in anyones way.

These are not shared access paths.

do you actually know that for a fact – or have you jumped to that conclusion because they are called “MTB trails”?

The trails were not built on existing paths. These trails don’t lead anywhere other than in a loop.

most paths in country parks don’t lead anywhere.

Elsewhere in the park there are shared paths and of course in these areas, you should be aware and give way to walkers, but is it too much to ask for people to respect a designated area for cycling????

so if there was a “jogging track” would you consider that off limit with your bike?

Would you honestly think it acceptable for people to walk up singletrack trails at a trail centre?

I’ve seen it and consider it OK so long as people show a little awareness. Thats what I call tolerance, and responsible use. It may be different at Inners or somewhere where its “all about” downhill speed, but thats not really the case with the trails at Pollock.

BB- yes all the time.

Any chance of an answer to my question now?

BoardinBob – Member
So you find people walking up the DH track at Inners?

er.. yes, frequently. often pushing a 45lb bike. nearly hit one **** a few weeks ago stood with his **** Kona on the blind apex of the turn between the quarry and the road gap take off! (a 40mph jump)

I now realise what Kona’s garish colour schemes are all about – warning others!!

I’ll give you an answer. He’d most likely hit them. As would I and a significant amount of people on this forum. I think most people who claim they are leaving enough room to stop immediately after a blind bend are kidding themselves.

OK – can you give me an example of a blind bend that you can take at a speed so high that you couldn’t stop safely?

There are none at GT or Inners, Dalbeattie, Mabie, Drumlanrig, Ae, Kittoughtree, Fort William, Laggan, nor anywhere else that I can think of that is specifically designed for biking.

..and you claim to be an inners local 🙄

I can think of loads.

Where?

On most of the DH tracks!
What do you think marshalls are for at races? and why do you think there are so many? and why do you think they have a yellow and red flag? – if there was a full clear view of the track ahead all the way down you wouldn’t need nearly as many. as it is there are litterally hundreds of points where if a rider is down in the middle of the track and the next rider kept going at race speed he would hit them, hit a few myself, been ridden over a few times too.
If you really don’t have the common sense to work this out for yourself I could show you a few on Sunday if you want.

I can think of a few at Brechfa. And more than a few on my local trails, although they’re not relevant. Perhaps you are a better rider than me, pretty bloody likely, to be honest:) It’s the stopping safely bit I’d have a problem with. I’d probably be swerving off the track and going OTB.

I would argue that if you weren’t so focused on getting down the hill at race speed, but going at normal non-race speed, then you would be able to see fine. The trees aren’t tightly packed at inners.

I am away this weekend, but enjoy your ride. Trails are pretty dry just now.

argue all you want, mate.
you’re wrong! plain and simple!
inners has pretty much consistently had the tightest tracks on the UK DH circuit for over a decade just ask any regular UK DH racer. – the place is littered with trees showing handlebar gouges.
“normal non-race speed” or “practice” is pretty much the exact same as race speed, sometimes faster. a good race run is made up from a lot of short sections ridden flat out and pieced together to make the perfect run. Good DH riders don’t just ride courses blind, they learn them – which is exactly why they have the confidence to hold maximum speed into a blind turn/dip/rise/jump etc. practice for many riders will be more sectioning than full runs. that’s why you’ll find a lot of riders congregating round the trickier sections riding them again and a gain and looking at the lines.

cheers for the info on conditions (already guessed as much, living 1/2hr away and having been down 2 days ago :wink:)

Totally see where you’re coming from Bob but sadly I think a letter writing campaign is more likely to result in our incompetent representatives shutting the trails to avoid liability than anything else.

In the event you do hit someone they can take their grievance up with the council, not you, but hopefully if and when the trails get busier (which seems to be happening already) it will become clearer to potential walkers etc. what the area is used for.

SOrry, slow forum last night and it was a hassle trying to reply.

Rider sprawled on the track?

That has to be expected.

And whoever was waffling on about “competitions” at sporting facilities, the next time you take your kids down to the tennis courts for a friendly family game give me a shout and I’ll pop down with my dog and take him for a walk while you’re playing. After all, it’s not a competitive match.

This is worthy of four 😆 😆 😆 😆

Any chance of an answer to my question now?

Ooh, big bad Smee. What’s next? Challenging me to a duel? Pistols at 10 paces?

for a trail in a public park, I think making any noises may have an adverse effect.

If people are walking or walking there dogs on the trail, the chances are they will be locals and be fully aware that the trail is for MTB users and there for probably know the risks.

I have used this trail a good many times over the last couple of years and found people walking through the trail to be pleasant and moved out the way with a friendly nod and I always say thanks.

But in the event that they don’t get out of the way, They will learn the hard way, I will run them over, 17 Stone of flesh and metal hurtling at them at a rate of nots….. they soon get out of the way. When I’m cutting about on the Canal near where I live I find this method a good NED repellent too 😆

Bob

I’d take issue with a couple of your points.

Re pre existing trails and there being none there before. Sorry to blow the steam aff yer shite (as the saying goes) but I’ve ridden on the trails for years before they became designated cycling trails. The line by the wall was always there as was much of the rest of route taken. Many of the features are new but when I rode the built trails, they were already familiar to me.

In respect of signage, in addition to the prominent route marker signage and the maps placed adjacent to the trail informing them of the trail and the sign that says mountain bike route, I would have to ask how much further action CSG and GCC would reasonably be expected to take to mitigate the risk? Banning walkers is not within their remit.

I’d also say that you should always consider whether riding round a blind corner at speed is reasonable for you as an outdoor user in a popular country park? the legislation is there to encourage everyone to be responsible.

Cheers

Sanny

Bob,
I have the good fortune to work for The Great and the Good of this Green Place and assisted in the planning of the trails and the ride to check their suitability with respect to the gradings for GCC, signs were put up at the time although I cann’t say if they are still there. I will take your concerns forward to our Cycling Section but I agree with Sanny.
The good news is that apparently the park were concerned at the concept stage but are now totaly sold on the idea, also work will be starting soon (if not already underway) at Cathkin Braes in prep for the Commomwealth Games, I’ve seen the plans and they look good.

A) There are no route maps next to the trail

B) The sign saying “Mountain Bike Circuit” doesn’t persuade people not to walk on it

C) “I’d also say that you should always consider whether riding round a blind corner at speed is reasonable for you as an outdoor user in a popular country park”

Why shouldn’t I? If I was playing on the tennis courts should I refrain from hitting a really hard shot in case the ball shoots off the court and hits someone passing by?

As I highlighted in my email, why did they grade the trails according to difficulty? By doing so they have to expect riders of different skill to ride at different levels and they can’t expect everyone to trundle along at walking pace.

The trails were built to be used and I’ll use them in the manner that they’ve been designed for.

D) I used the park too for years before the trails were put in place. People may very well have walked through the area before the trails were constructed, surfaced and waymarked and people continue to walk through the area but is it too much to expect people to apply common sense and avoid the actual trail itself. It’s an open expanse of woodland where people can walk anywhere other than the actual trail itself.

Ceekay, thanks.

I cycle through the park ten times a week and I walk my dog in the park seven times a week so I’m very aware of what’s going on in the place.

This is not about banning anyone from anywhere. It’s a free world. But I dont think people appreciate the dangers of walking on the trails and are simply unaware of the risks. Anything to let people know that if they walk somewhere they need to be aware that they may encounter cyclists travelling at high speed. Hell, even a sign that warned cyclists to expect to meet walkers would be an improvement!

I ride with a two fingers on the brakes at all times so in an emergency I can slam the anchors on pretty quickly. If you get a novice riding along that suddenly encounters a person/ dog they may not have the skill to avoid injuring themself or the other party.

And whoever was waffling on about “competitions” at sporting facilities, the next time you take your kids down to the tennis courts for a friendly family game give me a shout and I’ll pop down with my dog and take him for a walk while you’re playing. After all, it’s not a competitive match.

I would normally have to pay for the exclusive use of such courts for a temporary period. otherwise you could come along and start playing on the same court. if it was part of a very small skills area I would take your point – but its not, its a reasonable sized trail. I agree that warning signs may be appropriate but not convinced that banning walkers is in the best interest of cycling in that park, or getting such facilities in other parks.

Just for your information I was at Glentress today – there were no obvious signs suggesting that walkers were not welcome – there were some warning signs (cyclist in red triangle) when other paths meet the trail. There is even a section of the “Squirrel Walk” that shares the red route. We also saw two pedestrians on the trail.