Drugs have been in sport for a long time.
Paul Kimmage has suggested that this video sums up the root of the (Armstrong) problem

It’s never been about Lance for me. Here’s the root of the problem right here, captured brilliantly by ⁦@MarinaZenovich⁩ pic.twitter.com/ZxaQFqgQLF

— Paul Kimmage (@PaulKimmage) May 31, 2020

British Cycling (previously BCF) could possibly have done more, or handled things differently.
Darryl Webster was one of many talented British riders that was against doping in sport.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2019/11/21/speaking-doping-cost-career-insists-shane-suttons-former-team/
https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-daily-telegraph-sport/20191121/281762746096391

Paul Watson was another talented British rider
https://www.veloveritas.co.uk/2016/08/17/paul-watson-aug16/

The people that speak out about doping in sport do not seem to stay in sport.
Possibly Britains greatest road cyclist, Nicole Cooke, World Champion, Olympic Champion, etc.
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cycling/nicole-cooke-sexism-cycling-doping-bradley-wiggins-dave-brailsford-a7543696.html
Nicole Cooke wrote a excellent book The Breakaway.

Sports journalists don’t seem to do journalism or ask difficult questions any more.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-shame-of-britain-s-sporting-heroes

But how do people such as Shane Sutton survive in sport?
https://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling/sutton-accused-in-court-of-urine-in-coke-can-doping-cover-up-20191211-p53is7.html

Sports journalists don’t seem to do journalism or ask difficult questions any more.

Matt Dickinson, David Walsh, & Matthew Syed of The Times might disagree with that. Walsh in fact rowed back on his Sky book IIRC. Matthew Syed has criticised David Millar’s acceptance back into the fold too, though he’s been less damning of Sky. Dickinson has written a strong piece in The Times recently asking questions about Freeman, Sky & British Cycling.

But how do people such as Shane Sutton survive in sport?

Definitely questions around him – particularly after Cooke, Varnish AND Pendleton all complained about sexism in British Cycling with Sutton being directly named.

Matt Dickinson, David Walsh, & Matthew Syed of The Times might disagree with that. Walsh in fact rowed back on his Sky book IIRC. Matthew Syed has criticised David Millar’s acceptance back into the fold too, though he’s been less damning of Sky.

Walsh was a news journo, and is kind-of the exception that proves the rule.

Syed is more of a columnist & pseudo-intellectual AFAIK? I agree with him about Millar though, his fence-sitting when talking about Freeman on ITV4 last night was excruciating.

I’m not aware of Dickinson’s work, but he appears to be a sports hack so you might get a point there.

There’s definitely a strong tradition of “staying in your lane” among sports writers & broadcasters, fuelled IMO by the commoditised nature of sport and the sausage-factory nature of the media.

The last few years of Sky being hauled over the coals have seen a change though, they’ve arguably been given a tougher time by the UK media than Movistar or Astana might have got for the same offences.

Also, you can bet sections of the UK news (not sport) media would would have been only too happy to bring Sky down – considering the association with the Murdochs and the cliched (but kind-of real) “build ’em up and cut ’em down” mentality of news reporting.

But how do people such as Shane Sutton survive in sport?

Dunno if he’s still working TBH.

Last I heard he’d gone to work with the Chinese track team. They might have considered him and his methods a good cultural fit?

If you stop and think, we don’t actually know any more after the GMVC hearing than we did before. ie: Freeman ordered Testogel to be delivered – in a stroke of doping mastermind genius – to the Manchester Velodrome. He says it was for Sutton. Sutton says it wasn’t. The GMC believes Sutton and calls him a ‘credible witness’. And that’s about it.

The bit about doping ‘sleepers’ and intent to dope an unknown rider doesn’t seem to be supported by any actual evidence beyond the GMC thinking it’s the only explanation for the testosterone order. Or have I missed something?

crazy-legs

Because as the hearing stated, there’s no proof that any rider doped.

Seriously? The team doctor was found guilty of knowingly ordering dope for athletes. But the team weren’t doping?

There’s no proof against any one individual rider, but there was doping at Team Sky.

NO – the only thing that was proven was that Freeman got testagel. NO proof of doping only the inference of it.

Has there ever been a TDF with a winner who did not use PEDs? From the early days of amphetamines and opioids to the modern use of highly suspect TUEs

tjagain

NO – the only thing that was proven was that Freeman got testagel. NO proof of doping only the inference of it.

The team doctor was ordering dope for athletes. To suggest there was no doping going on in that context is either being hopelessly naive or deliberately obtuse.

The team doctor was ordering dope for athletes. To suggest there was no doping going on in that context is either being hopelessly naive or deliberately obtuse.

& yet his boss, Steve Peters, told him to return the gel when he found out. Whilst Shane Sutton, who could have corroborated an (albeit embarrassing) alibi for the team, denied the stuff was for him. Doesn’t seem like this was a team sponsored thing.

Questions:

1.Who was the testogel for?

2. Who knew about it?

Its highly suspicious honourablegeorge but it is not proof of doping

personally I believe team sky were doping but thats neither here nor there.

Just returning to Brad I saw him riding up the Col de Pailheres in the bus on Stage 14 of the 2007 tour, then seeing the exit of the entire team on the Aubisque on Stage 16.

tjagain

Its highly suspicious honourablegeorge but it is not proof of doping

personally I believe team sky were doping but thats neither here nor there

We’re in agreement then, in that we’ve both seen enough to believe that it’s true, but are both aware that it hasn’t been proven yet.

Seriously? The team doctor was found guilty of knowingly ordering dope for athletes. But the team weren’t doping?

He could have been buying it for someone else. I mean, this is a pretty shady area so there’s probably a lot of dealing going on all over the place. And even if he was helping someone on the team doesn’t mean it was a team decision. From what I’ve read it can be an individual decision. Also possible that athletes themselves weren’t aware it was illegal or were convinced it wasn’t. There are still lots of theoretical possibilities here.

Loads of theoretical possibilities, and one glaringly obvious one.

Nobody who has any serious involvement in pro cycling could be unaware of what testosterone gel is used for.

Freeman has been struck off.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/56459664

What i can’t understand in this whole case, is why has none of the riders or staff that were/are still at either Team Sky (now Ineos)/British Cycling ever come forward to defend either Dr Freeman or the team, and deny that there was ever any doping going on.

By staying silent it feels like all are guilty and hoping it will all pass over before they get implicated.

If I was a clean rider from one of these teams I’d be shouting from the rooftops that I’d never seen or been involved in doping, as I wouldn’t want my reputation tarnished.

Or maybe there has been some serious institutional doping going on.

You have answered your own question.

Presumably they are all waiting for all his tribunals to finish so they can see how many beans he spills before they stake their reputation on a statement that could later be proven false.

Maybe they’ll be able to say:
“I never met Dr Freeman”, or failing that
“I met him but he never treated me for anything” or failing that
“He was my doctor but I never used any bad drugs” or failing that
“He was my doctor and he helped me with my TUEs but never anything illegal”

Even if I never doped I’d want to position myself as far away from him as possible. If it later turns out I was lying by saying I didn’t know him when I (demonstrably) did, then that looks so much worse.

If I was a clean rider from one of these teams I’d be shouting from the rooftops that I’d never seen or been involved in doping, as I wouldn’t want my reputation tarnished.

Much easier to just let one guy take the fall for it. Whatever “it” happens to be and right now “it” could be institutionalised doping to “oops, I ordered this by mistake, let’s cover it up quick” to “Shane bullied me into ordering this cos he can’t get it up”.

Anyway, you just end up with the “Well I never saw anything…” knowing full well that means nothing – that avenue of defence has been used countless times in the past and either no-one believes it anyway or it later exposes a contradiction in the stories somewhere down the line.

I am surprise he was permanently removed from the register for this.

I am surprise he was permanently removed from the register for this.

I suspect it’s not the offences he committed alone but the amount of time he then spent trying to weasel out of them – they’re sending a message about the standards to which a doctor is expected to adhere

nothing to lose now

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/mar/19/former-british-cycling-and-team-sky-chief-doctor-richard-freeman-struck-off

If I was a clean rider from one of these teams I’d be shouting from the rooftops that I’d never seen or been involved in doping, as I wouldn’t want my reputation tarnished.

You’ve not had any media training have you?

Issuing a denial of dodgy activity would just associate your name with the dodgy activity in question.

@NewRetroTom no I definitely haven’t. I never really thought about implication by denial.

If I was a clean rider from one of these teams I’d be shouting from the rooftops that I’d never seen or been involved in doping, as I wouldn’t want my reputation tarnished.

You say that but then there was that American chap who was adamant he was clean “extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof…” and all that sort of chat. Turned out he was a wee bit on the juice.

Loud protestations of innocence probably draw more scrutiny that keeping your head down, innocent or not.

But yeah, a doctor ordered some testosterone, and the supposed recipient says it wasn’t for him… It’s not actual evidence of team sky doping (yet), people are adding 2 and 2 and coming up with DRUGS! When the route to finding against any member of that team for doping probably still hasn’t been started…