Viewing 39 posts - 1 through 39 (of 39 total)
  • First Aid training, anxiety to implement.
  • Premier Icon rockhopper70
    Free Member

    I haven’t had too, apologies for perceived clickbait.

    But at Leeds bike park this weekend a fellow rider took a massive hit right in front of me. I was with my son, it could have been him. This chap clearly broke his arm, possibly his other wrist and had a nasty head injury.

    Aside from telling this chap to stay sat down and giving the W3W location to 999, I hadn’t a clue what to do. Then an ex-forces chap turned up and cool as a cucumber fashioned a sling for the arm and got him comfortable.

    Paramedics arrived and saved the day.

    So this got me thinking I really should be knowledgeable on basic first aid. But the thought of administering it and making a mistake also makes me nervous. But I need to know what to be able to do in those situations.

    MTFU or is this kind of a normal situation, worrying about the consequences of getting in wrong? But, likewise, what if this chap just bled out* in front of me?

    I’m thinking that part of the training will be to know the limits, and assume that there is some sort of hierarchy taught of, “don’t move them if xyz” but do “abc” if they are such and such. Would St John Ambulance be the best provider? Any apps, or online to look at?

    *you might detect that this has been going round and round in my head.

    Premier Icon grahamt1980
    Full Member

    You are fine to be nervous, but strangely when something happens and you know what to do, you tend to just get on with it rather than worry.
    Have dealt with quite a few incidents in the years since i did first aid courses. Injuries to family and friends and complete strangers, was only ever afterwards that i went back over it. Didn’t even think while working through the issues.

    Edit- i have done various first aid at work, did a 2 day outdoor instructor first aid course and have done beach lifeguard. The 2 day outdoor one was the best as the scenarios were in the environment you are likely to be in.
    Also this reminds me to get a course booked as all mine have expired

    Premier Icon joshvegas
    Free Member

    But the thought of administering it and making a mistake also makes me nervous. But I need to know what to be able to do in those situations.

    I did a BASF Outdoor first aid course for work. There are basically a few basic rules to follow then everything else is a bit “do what you can everytime its different”

    BRoken arms etc are pretty easy because the person is more than likely going to hold it n the most comfortable position and you jsut have to get it secure.

    The course isn’t really about the perfect “what to do” its precisely for what you describe. Taking away that doubt. If someone really really really needs emergency treatment from you like the helicopter is needed you’re unlikely to make things worse!

    is the person to weigh in I think though he does or did it proffessionally.

    Do a course, it will give you confidence and you literally might make the difference to someone seeing their family again.

    Premier Icon JonEdwards
    Free Member

    The club I rode with had a similar experience over 20 years ago, and there were a good few of us who had similar reactions.

    but do “abc”

    That’s exactly what you do – Airway, Breathing, Circulation. (although its now “DRABC” – Danger, Response being the first 2 letters.)

    Essentially doing something is always better than doing nothing, and there’s very little “wrong” you can do. First aid is just what it says – keeping things stable until the pros get there.

    Since that incident I must have done half a dozen first aid courses of various types, and they’re all good. They tend to major a lot on heart-attacky kind of stuff which is not the most useful in a bike environment, but as a life skill is very useful in a hope-never-to-need-it way, then its on to the more day to day stuff.

    “Bleeding out” is unlikely, although the Cedric Gracia video is worth watching for a “how to do it as right as you could” in that situation.,24315/iceman2058,94

    Tip – in a multiple injury scenario – don’t worry about the ones making lots of noise. Look for the ones who aren’t making any – they’re the ones who most need the attention.

    Premier Icon theotherjonv
    Full Member

    Your anxiety probably comes from not knowing what to do, if you were to get training then you’re not in that position any more.

    Sure there is a situation where you have had training and it doesn’t work. I had an old lady collapse in front of my old work, me and a colleague tried until the ambulance got there and we later learned she’d basically had an aneurism and dropped stone dead. I’d still rather have had the training and tried, than stood there waiting.

    Yes, SJA do training, also Red Cross, and a lot of it is about the DRABC processes so you don’t make things worse for you or the casualty.

    Well worth it, my training has lapsed (I did it as a work first aider) but I still remember the basics, and certainly enough that I hope I’d be useful if it was needed again. Stuff like at the time I was taught a 15:1 ratio of compressions to breaths on CPR, I just googled and it’s now 30:2. If I hadn’t googled and had to use it tomorrow, 15:1 wouldn’t particularly have been wrong though, and certainly not compared to standing and waiting…..

    Premier Icon iainc
    Free Member

    I have used my Outdoor First Aid training a few times over the years, you tend to not forget the basics, so a useful thing to have in the toolbox. I was a bit worried sorting out a good mate, who is a GP, when he split his head open on his car tailgate on a camping weekend but he seemed appreciative 😁

    Premier Icon sillysilly
    Full Member

    Sounds normal worry, sure they will cover most of the common concerns as part of the training. Just booked myself onto the office first aid course after reading this hoping it will cover MTB and outdoor activity 🙂

    Premier Icon timber
    Free Member

    Training helps reinforce the basics you already know (like keep the blood in) and reassures that you can’t really do anything wrong in offering help with the best intentions. It also considers looking after yourself and situation risks.

    A course in a relevant setting will help boost confidence. For me the move to forestry specific updates makes me more confident in the situations I’m likely to encounter.

    Equally, some aren’t natural carers, my wife can’t stand anything bloody or gorey so I have to do a lot of my own repairs.

    Premier Icon fossy
    Full Member

    Having come across an off on Llandegla Blue (on my second run after the Blacks), a young lass had crashed.. no bar end plugs. I gave them my waterproof jacket for wind protection (full covid rules at the time) – it might be warm in the car park, it isn’t up top. They had nothing with them. I now carry the foil blankets and a rescue bag in my back pack. Cheap, I may never use, but after what I saw… Amazon, get a set.

    Premier Icon wheelsonfire1
    Full Member

    I had training when the fire service were trying to turn us all into paramedics. Try as I might only the very basics sank in – I still had enough confidence to step in when SJA were getting spine management wrong at horse events though! I was no stranger to blood and gore, that wasn’t the problem I just couldn’t retain the info. Not unusual, I had crew that were good drivers but never allowed near anything technical, some were excellent at casualty care, some at getting stuck in with heavy stuff or extraction, some at standing back and helping with an assessment and some who just were good at saying “really”!
    Don’t worry, a few very basic rules can help, and take a deep breath and pause slightly.
    Hope this helps – a reluctant first aider!
    And as above, bar end plugs I’d fit for free in my second “career”.

    Premier Icon Freester
    Free Member

    I will just say don’t beat yourself up. You never know how you will react in that situation until it happens*.

    Training may help. Don’t go and do an online course (IMO) go and do some real hands on. First Aid at Work or equivalent. The main crux of the training is to treat injuries in order to prevent further injury or loss of life. Yes you are taught priorities. The basic aim is to treat until someone better trained can attend. But some very basic techniques will save a life.

    *many years ago in a car behind a car that had a serious accident. Stopped, myself and one other leapt out of the car to assist the injured and stop the oncoming traffic. Two other passengers just stayed in our car not knowing what to do. One of those that stayed in the car had had formal First Aid training.

    Premier Icon stevious
    Free Member

    Have been on a few courses in recent(ish) years, all of which were outdoor-focused. The best courses I’ve done were the BASP ones as they really focused on keeping things simple and relevant. So much better than the first aid at work courses I did in the early 2000s.

    I’ve helped with a few incidents since my first BASP course and I was surprised at how calm and confident I was in the situation. I think it’s because I knew what I could and couldn’t help with so there was no doubt about calling for help when it was needed.

    I’m incredibly squeamish most of the time but managed to help in a couple of fairly serious incidents.

    Premier Icon snotrag
    Free Member

    I deliver First Aid Training at work, and this is something I get asked or we talk about regularly.

    We focus on the very basics – DRABC as a above, and how to use a Defib.

    But we also put a big emphasis on the things that are overlooked. There will be situations where as a First Aider, the best thing you can do is put your arm round some one and keep them feeling safe until the pros arrive. You also, crucially, have the chance to find out lots of information – medication, history, previous, have you eaten, etc etc.

    Doing just that stuff IS being a good first aider. Not everyone will be able to fashion slings out of branches or make complex diagnoses out of thin air. Nor are you expected to.

    Get some training, and remember that First Aid is something you volunteer to do, and that even just doing very simple basic things is very worthwhile.

    Premier Icon steamtb
    Free Member

    Your thoughts and apprehension really aren’t unusual; as part of their degree, all of our students have to do a Pre Hospital Immediate Care in Sport course and lots of them feel the same initially. They then go on to use those skills on clinical placements, especially pitchside and they realise that the lovely sequence and stepwise processes taught on courses really helps to make you quite calm when you need to use what you’ve learnt. They’ve done some excellent reflection on some of the serious incidents they’ve dealt with this year and most of them had quite a bit of apprehension until they’d used their knowledge.

    I’m guessing there are lots of great outdoors orientated courses around, interesting to do and very useful for everyday life, not just mountain biking. Ive ended up treating all sorts, from flipped mobility scooters to fractures, dislocations and chest injuries sustained by people when out biking. Each time I feel incredibly thankful Ive been lucky enough to have done some first aid training 🙂

    Perfectly normal to have a bit of flap when you don’t know what to do. Like many have said, there’s some good courses out there well worth investing in.

    I try to do one a year to keep my eye in, although I still cock them up though as I have C-ABC drilled into my head. 😀

    But you called an ambulance and stayed with him, that counts for something. I had a bad off a few years back and a passerby did similar, they didn’t have any FA training, but I was grateful to not be alone until the fun bus arrived.

    Premier Icon woody74
    Full Member

    As someone who had to give a stranger cpr in the middle of the street when they just dropped to the pavement in front of me. I would say training gives you the confidence and a feeling of “it’s my job I need to step in” to roll your sleeves up and get on with it. Yes you might not do things perfectly but something is better than nothing when someone has a heart attack or is bleeding out. You will be surprised what you remember and how your mind becomes focused. As others have said there is more that can be done than making a sling. Giving them support and providing emotional support, gathering information to tell the paramedics, taking control of the scene and other people. It’s all really important.

    Thanks for asking the question as it has reminded me that I really should get some refresher training.

    Premier Icon theotherjonv
    Full Member

    One of those that stayed in the car had had formal First Aid training.


    taking control of the scene and other people. It’s all really important.

    Absolutely part of the essential skills of a First Aider. Projecting calm and authority might just get the car bound first aider over the first hump to become a hands-on FA and double your capacity. Even if you’re actually shitting it yourself.

    When on a club ride someone had an off and from the helmet it was clear they’d banged their head hard, as ride leader with a bit of basic FA training, I was able to take control and post a couple of guys up and down road from us to stop traffic (that’s the D for danger bit, doesn’t matter how good the first aid treatment was going to be if the first thing that happens is we all get run over!!), another one to phone an ambulance with clear instructions on where we were, and immediately three slightly flappy people were under control and feeling useful again.

    I know there are folks that have a tendency to sneer at the ‘busybody’ mentality, but when it’s been needed someone to take control at least until experts arrive is invaluable.

    Premier Icon spooky_b329
    Full Member

    You asked about apps, I have the St John’s Ambulance app on my phone. Handy to have when you have got the patient safe and want to double check if you’ve missed anything.

    Rules wise, it’s pretty easy.
    Stay safe.
    Call for help.
    Ask permission (unless unconscious) before giving first aid.
    Don’t administer any creams or drugs (there are a couple of exceptions).

    The idea is that anyone trying to help (First Aider or not) that is not a medical professional is very unlikely to be prosecuted, and you are likely to ’cause’ more harm by walking past than at least making an effort to help.

    Premier Icon joshvegas
    Free Member

    I think the most obvious thing i learned and probably would have been nervous about was neck injuries. I sort of had “don’t move them at all” “don’t remove helmets” etc.

    The lady who took the course made a good point. They might have a neck injury but if they have stoved the back of their head in you need to know so if the helmet needs to come off “and here is how to do it” similarly if they are on their back unconcious and throwing up/choking on their tongue they die in minutes broken neck or not.

    I’m now pretty confident I could take control of someones head and direct absolute strangers to roll them onto their side so they live.

    You might be able to do nothing but wait but you also potentially will get other people safe aswell, get them wrapped up and warm for the wait etc

    I also reccomend a swift water rescue course, thats the best two days paid I’ve ever had!

    Premier Icon MoreCashThanDash
    Free Member

    I’m a first aider at work, have been for years. I’m also an anxiety sufferer, so I know both sides.

    We don’t get much worse than paper cuts at work, though I’ve has someone blue lighted to hospital with bad concussion after a fall, and I was very relieved when the guy with angina retired.

    Worst I’ve dealt with on a ride I was involved with was a broken pelvis and femur, though there was another better trained first aider there as well. Also come across the aftermath of crashes where I’ve justbhad to check the ambulance was on its way and there was nothing more I could do to help other than hand over the foil blanket I always carry.

    Everyone should be first aid trained – Beavers and Rainbows are taught how to get help from age 5/6 and age appropriate first aid badges run through Scouts and Guides. Would be lovely if school could somehow fit that in.

    In the meantime, carry a foil blanket, a way to identify the location and get help (signal permitting) and have the St John or Red Cross app on your phones

    Premier Icon joshvegas
    Free Member

    Everyone should be first aid trained – Beavers and Rainbows are taught how to get help from age 5/6 and age appropriate first aid badges run through Scouts and Guides. Would be lovely if school could somehow fit that in.

    yep no one should enter adult hood without some first aid basic, we have to sit in an RE class but life saving has no space in the curriculum!

    Premier Icon scuttler
    Free Member
    Premier Icon boriselbrus
    Free Member

    There was a private members bill about 5 years ago to require basic first aid to be taught in schools. It was blocked by this lovely man Tory ahole who fillibustered it out. I emailed him afterwards asking why and got a very swift personal response which was borderline abusive.

    I did first aid from when I was a cub (I’m now 50!) and had continuous first aid at work certificates up until 2020 when the training stopped. They were all done by St Johns and left me totally unprepared for the real thing. The St Johns scenarios were “This person has a bit of red pen on them which you pretend is blood” The real thing was a friend who crashed his bike and involved a river of blood, an unrecognisable face, unconsciousness and a blocked airway. (He survived BTW). So I went and did a proper outdoor course with scenarios involving lots of fake blood, protruding bones, fires, screaming and general mayhem. The incidents I’ve dealt with since have been much easier as a result and I ended up teaching first aid as an assistant to a proper instructor.

    My takeaway from this was if you are in an office situation where your casualties have paper cuts and red pen on them, go to Red Cross/St Johns. If you want to learn first aid, go and do a proper outdoor course.

    Premier Icon crazy-legs
    Full Member

    I did quite a few years of slightly more advanced First Aid as I worked in a chemical environment so there was always the possibility of poisoning, hazardous spillage etc. No point going charging in to administer CPR if the person is lying in a lake of acid…

    Been a while since I’ve done one though and the confidence to deal with a situation diminishes along with the length of time since you’ve practiced any of it.

    there are interesting social experiments about the tipping point before people stop to help in an unfamiliar situation – most people will stand back, expect someone else to do “something” (anything!) but as soon as someone comes in and says:
    You – go over there and stop people coming this way.
    You – hold their head steady
    You – call an ambulance
    people will actually help quite readily.

    Premier Icon db
    Free Member

    My 2p

    Its very easy to go to help when its just you and them. Our natural reaction is to try to help and as said above with a little (even ‘out of date’) training you are unlikely to make the situation worse. If you are doing chest compressions cracking a rib is the least of the persons problems.

    I think in more public situations it is harder to step in. People perhaps think there will be someone better qualified along in a minute and I don’t want to look silly but I’m sure I saw a video where people would just walk past someone in a busy street but stop and help if it was 1 on 1.

    I have some old training and a family full of NHS and Police professional which has helped a few times over the years from car accidents on the M25 to a suicidal woman driving off a cliff.

    Premier Icon a11y
    Free Member

    So this got me thinking I really should be knowledgeable on basic first aid. But the thought of administering it and making a mistake also makes me nervous.

    Perfectly normal to be anxious, but just remember nobody’s going to criticise you for trying your best.

    I first did my BASP Outdoor First aid in 2011 and thankfully needed it rarely since*. Went through a 2-day outdoor FA course earlier this month and was surprised (and encouraged) how much I’d remembered from the previous course. Feeling a lot happier should I ever have to react and help in future.

    * first incident I dealt with was a rider landing on his head from about 10′ up after over-rotating on a quadruple jump on the 4X track at Fort William, during the finals. Happened directly in front of me and I was shitting myself – not just because it was my first time, but it was also in front of a big crowd, being broadcast live (was this Freecaster days?) and running to a schedule. I was worried about being judged by everyone analysing what I was doing, but nobody’s ever going to criticise you.

    Premier Icon csb
    Free Member

    Been a qualified 1st aider since the old days when a St Andrew’s course was weeks long and had a proper test at the end mostly focused on how neat you knots were…

    Then as @boriselbrus says, did an outodoor course as part of mountain leadership and it was hard core! Forget knots, ‘how do you get someone off a hill using a backpack strap and walking poles, whilst their leg is at a right angle’ type thing. Yikes.

    Still trained but as @crazy-legs and others said, it still takes a bit of a jolt to think “shit, right, what’s needed here”

    Premier Icon TheDTs
    Free Member

    I did a three day First Aider at work course at a the Fire Training place near my work. It was brilliant. All the others on the course were fire fighters except me and a lady from the training centre staff. Lots of training for quite nasty stuff and lots of real life experience brought in by the firefighters. I’m only up to date with A simpler one day St Johns course now but that was only just what it needed to be. And badly reduced in practical due to social distancing. For example, putting yourself in the recovery position! Ftf!

    Premier Icon mini
    Free Member

    i have a 2 day outdoor first aid course running ina few weeks

    based just outside of Barnsley, i am a MTB coach as well so understand well the first aid needs of us on bikes.

    Premier Icon kilo
    Free Member

    First on the scene for a quite bad motorbike crash at the weekend, drove round a bend to find a rider in the gutter and his bike smashed into a hedge, potentially life changing injuries was the prognosis. All the training, a course a year at work for a decade or so, based on trauma incidents rather than office first aid, seemed to kick in fairly quickly after an initial brief burst of swearing.

    Real life is nothing like a training course though, we were half in a ditch and in brambles getting slashed all over for half an hour or so waiting for an ambulance and the bloody biker kept saying he wanted to get up. Fortunately an off duty nurse turned up and said we were doing ok and the sound of sirens in the distance was very welcome. Stayed in the middle of it with the paramedics and then the helicopter team helping as best I could until we all lifted him, now strapped on a board onto a proper stretcher.

    Premier Icon MoreCashThanDash
    Free Member

    On a more positive note,the “best” real first aid I saw in action was at a motorway services. I was in Costa with my daughter when a guy at a nearby table started coughing, then wheezing, then his family started screaming as they realised he was properly choking and unable to breathe.

    I’d just thought “shit, can I remember what to do?” when the barista stopped the drink he was making, walked round, couple of blows between the shoulder blades, no change, then got behind him and did a textbook abdominal thrust that sent the offending bit of food flying onto the floor.

    The barista then calmly walked back behind the counter and carried on making the drink, cool as you like. To loud applause from the customers.

    He got copious thanks from the guy he’d helped and a large note went in the tip jar.

    Premier Icon TheDTs
    Free Member

    My mum & dad were walking in California, hours walk from anywhere. Came around a corner to find a bloke in the middle of the path in the recovery position. 20 mins of m to m and compressions (as was the advice at the time) to no avail. Dad felt at the time that the bloke was probably a goner anyway but also that his ability to help was not what it could be. Also that having a mouth protector in your bag would be handy!🤮 The fellas wife had headed back to civilisation to get help, they met her and assistance on their way back down! If you going to shuffle off there are less tranquil places to do it!

    Only had to use any training once outside of my old job, old fella took a OOB on his folding bike a few weeks back, knocked himself up a treat.

    I am really grateful to my old job in FA terms for being hammered with high quality training and currency checks quite regularly. Some of the training would sit above most civilian courses, some that’s doubtful I’d ever use again though!

    Premier Icon cheekyboy
    Free Member

    En route to meet my riding mate I came across a collapsed elderly chap, rang 999 and started compressions, carried on for about 8 mins before paramedics arrived, they managed to restart his heart but unfortunateley he passed away in hospital 2 days later, Ive done several St John courses and refreshers, never enjoyed doing these courses as the 3 day course seemed to me to be a box ticking exercise for the company I work for. It did however give me the confidence to do what I did and I will probably do the next one with a bit more enthusiasm.
    My memories of that experience was how hard it was to maintain the pressure and momentum especially when you are kneeling on gritty tarmac in bare knees.

    Premier Icon crossed
    Full Member

    It’s not just everyday people who can struggle with this, so-called professionals can get the jitters too!

    I’ve been a Paramedic for 15+ years now. When I’m at work and I respond to a call be it on my own as a solo responder or with a crewmate on an ambulance it’s relatively easy. I’ve got an idea what I’m going to and what to expect when I get there (hopefully!)

    When I’m away from work and just going about my normal life it’s a bit different. Actually seeing an accident and someone getting injured is different to turning up after it’s all happened. I’m not saying I freak out but there’s always the moment when you freeze to take things in, it might only be for a second or two but it can feel like an age. Once it’s sunk in what’s happening then it’s a case of cracking on and doing your best.
    When you’re used to having the kit you need, easy access to the back-up you need, and a uniform which seems to calm people it’s a very different feeling having none of that to lean on.
    Administering first aid can be a bit daunting but that and CPR are quite literally life savers. I’d urge anyone and everyone to get some kind of training if you can.
    With regards the CPR I’m lucky enough to work somewhere that has a large number of CPR trained staff and a good number of defibs, although it’s not common by any means we see a better than average number of positive outcomes due to these people and their efforts.

    Premier Icon bails
    Full Member

    A friend came off his bike on the road and broke his femur.
    I remembered this:

    there are interesting social experiments about the tipping point before people stop to help in an unfamiliar situation – most people will stand back, expect someone else to do “something” (anything!) but as soon as someone comes in and says:
    You – go over there and stop people coming this way.
    You – hold their head steady
    You – call an ambulance
    people will actually help quite readily.

    So when the first driver stopped and said “do you need any help” (seconds after it had happened. I was turning around to get back to my buddy and heard him shout “I think I’ve broken my leg”) I said to the driver “yes please, get your phone out and call 999, tell them we need an ambulance”.
    I turned around a few seconds later and the guy had just driven off!

    Premier Icon TheDTs
    Free Member

    Yep, it’s the simple things that make a difference. Practice, practice, practice! In avalanche training practice the first thing loads of people do is take gloves off to use a transceiver. That’s fine until you are digging out a casualty through 2m of compacted snow without gloves!

    Premier Icon TiRed
    Free Member

    Been there and taken control. Step one is ensure that there isn’t going to be another accident! Team mates help there to block the course/road. Step 2 is call for help or ask someone else to. Then ABC. My thinking is simple. If not you, then who? Sadly my club mate died, but we were a fine team on the bike and an even better team in a crisis. Some training helped, but ultimately someone has to take control.

    Premier Icon spooky_b329
    Full Member

    The barista then calmly walked back behind the counter and carried on making the drink, cool as you like. To loud applause from the customers.

    After advising the man that he must now go to A&E and filling out the accident book hopefully! Abdominal Thrusts are violent and you are meant to get checked out afterwards.

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