Fatbike with modern trail geometry

roverpig – Member

Suspension or not? My original thought was that big squishy tyres make suspension less necessary, but a few of the reviews of the Bluto have made me think.

I haven’t ridden a bluto yet but this is a personal call I think; from where I am, it’s a sliding slope that’s not about upgrading the bike but making it less like it is, and more like my other bikes. If you take it to its logical conclusion you end up not buying a fatbike, and riding your normal bike.

Not everyone’ll feel like this but you seem a bit like you’re coming at it from the same place as me? After all, the best trail bike is absolutely not a fat bike, so if you want a trailbike fatbike, the point shouldn’t be to make the best trailbike; it should be to make a fatbike that’s hilarious to ride on trails.

So that’s why mine is 4.8, rigid, and brilliantly bad at the job I ask it to do. It’s the butter knife I take to a gunfight.

You want trail geo and ride fast? why bother with 4 or 5″ fabikes?
Go get a 29+ bike like a Krampus or Trek Stache, Travers, Jones…

I don’t think I mentioned going fast (at least I shouldn’t have). I’ve no doubt that a 29+ (like the B+ I have already) makes for a better trail bike (faster, more versatile etc). But I’ve already got a good trail bike.

Not everyone’ll feel like this but you seem a bit like you’re coming at it from the same place as me? After all, the best trail bike is absolutely not a fat bike, so if you want a trailbike fatbike, the point shouldn’t be to make the best trailbike; it should be to make a fatbike that’s hilarious to ride on trails.

Couldn’t have put it better myself. In fact I didn’t 🙂

I don’t think I want another trail bike, I want something that will offer me something different. If that means it’s much worse than my Smuggler in some situations that’s fine by me, as long as it’s much better in others.

So, why the talk of trail geometry? Well, I know a fatbike will open up some trails that I can’t ride on the Smuggler (snow, sand, bogs etc) and maybe that is as far as it goes. But I wonder if a fatbike with the right geometry would also open up some steep scary descents that I don’t have the nerve to ride on my trailbike. I don’t need it to do them fast, but if it let me crawl down them in comfort that would be great. Maybe that’s asking too much though.

^ pretty much think the ‘something different’ was part of the appeal to me.

I could always fit some 29+ wheels in mine too. But can’t see myself wanting to. It is a nice option to have though. Although mine is more old fashioned / xc / original / adventure geometry.*

As for the trail bike thing. As my other recent thread on here showed I’m actually looking to dial down the xc nature of my HT to further the gap. Partly due to the fact I’m using the fatbike on more trails locally than I thought I would.

*or whatever tag you’d call it.

I found Nates to be the draggiest fat tyres I’ve tried, very grippy, but, if you hit some deep gloop, I found they had a tendency to slip sideways, which could be disconcerting! Bud will roll faster, grip better, and gold it’s line and have more cush.

It hasn’t rained round here for a week, so I put a 4.8 Jumbo Jim on my Jones, WOW, feelslike a totally different bike, feels like it’s accelerating twice as fast and almost disconcertingly nimble 😉 – didn’t need to clean the bike when I got home 😀

Northwind +1 again. Quite happy that the Wazoo can’t take a bluto, and when I saw a FS fatty at Woburn last week I just thought it had completely missed the point.I’ve got an all conquering trail slayer, I don’t want a 4″ tyred version of the same bike.

roverpig the three I tried – Spesh Fatboy Cube Nutrail and Scott Big Jon – all felt like trail bikes. I don’t know if one can read too much into the geometry and dimensions because so much is dictated by the size of the tyres but I instantly felt at home on them. An element of steel floatiness combined with stiff and efficient aluminium. Nothing like the slushboxes I was expecting. First turn of the pedals and all three of them were off like greyhounds.

All I read so far is about how draggy they are. But then I’m coming to the conclusion that drag and grip are very much related

Nope it doesn’t work like that, at least ime. Whereas thin tyres rely on clever tread patterns and compounds to make them work, the sheer volume of fat tyres means you can get away with fast rolling compounds that still grip because there’s so much rubber in contact with the ground. The pressures are everything but you really can have fast & grippy

crashtestmonkey – Member

when I saw a FS fatty at Woburn last week I just thought it had completely missed the point.

To be fair, I’d love a go on one of those 😆

I wonder whether my desire for “trail geometry” is based on a misunderstanding.

I tend to think (as a lot of people do, I suspect) that a slacker head angle makes it easier to get down steep stuff, but I suspect this is not true. A slacker head angle is mainly, I think, about stability at speed. So, if you are happy to crawl down the steep stuff it’s irrelevant. It’s also about the bike being less sensitive to getting knocked off-line, but a huge tyre is going to do that anyway.

Yeah I wouldn’t read too much into it tbh. For me the fact the geometry doesn’t change because there’s no suspension was a hidden bonus

Scott Big Jon Fat Bike Long Term Review

Oh I’d happily have a bash on one but there really is no place for one in my extended collection!

and if you are thinking of a surly wednesday be warned there are no framesets in the country and no ETA for them either….I know cos i’m after one and retailers have twice happily taken my money for ‘in stock’ framesets only then to tell me they are not yet in stock and they don’t know when they will be!

If money was no object then I would import one of these, 420mm stays: http://mattercycles.com/products/benefat

I like to think my Bucksaw is pretty trail though, 65.7 static head angle with a 140mm Fox B+ fork.

timandrews13 – Member

and if you are thinking of a surly wednesday be warned there are no framesets in the country and no ETA for them either….I know cos i’m after one and retailers have twice happily taken my money for ‘in stock’ framesets only then to tell me they are not yet in stock and they don’t know when they will be!

I think they do know…
http://www.ison-distribution.com/english/product.php?part=FMSUWE1B
which is why I went for an ICT from the US, the fact it was half the UK price helped 😆

I like to think my Bucksaw is pretty trail though

Is that thing as fun as it looks?

I think they do know…
http://www.ison-distribution.com/english/product.php?part=FMSUWE1B
which is why I went for an ICT from the US, the fact it was half the UK price helped

Thanks Stato….retailers that sell surly bikes will happily take your money for these framesets now – even if the distributor is saying August for stock arriving!! blimey.

How did you get a frame from the US – did you pay import duty and VAT?

@ RD
Who stops?
My dad would call it character building. He is 77 and still MTBing so who am I to argue

It’s what we do after dropping the pressures to around 3-4psi for soft sand and dune riding. Couple of mins with the mini track pump up to about 8psi for tarmac/prom cruising

bSuspension or not?

My riding buddy has a bluto on his fatty trail & loves it. I’ve had a go & can’t see what the fuss is about. He forgets to unlock it occasionally & it doesn’t hinder his speed & he doesn’t always notice its locked out until I point it out to him

molgrips – Member
I like to think my Bucksaw is pretty trail though
Is that thing as fun as it looks?

Ah you saw it on the Facebook page, here it is:
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It’s a quiver killer for sure, turned out just as I imagined. The Vanhelga tyres were the icing on the cake, really fast for such a grippy tyre.

@Scruffy is that a fox fork I see? 😀
and Stato you have to tell us how you got a frame from the US! As far as I know they don’t ship to the uk due to distribution agreements or something?

officerfriendly – Member
@Scruffy is that a fox fork I see?

It’s the B+ one, has clearance for a 26 x 4″ tyre on 70mm rims max, good 5mm+ at the sides, and loads up top.

Ah you saw it on the Facebook page

Actually, I thought to myself one day how brilliant FS fatbikes must be, so I googled for it and found that.

I really want one!

How did you get a frame from the US – did you pay import duty and VAT?

Holiday in New-York, ordered through a shop before I went, picked it up on the way to the airport for the flight home (needed an XL uber over a yellow cab though).

Fully expected/prepared to pay duty on arrival home (as everyone was telling me to take an old bike out to ‘con’ customs) but we had an internal connection prior to collecting bags and bike-box, and there was no customs gate for internal (UK) arrivals at our destination airport, so no-one to declare to.

and as long as I can afford a sus fork, there is no way id not run one. I used my old mukluk with its rigid a fair bit and while it was capable it was not fun. Failing to be able to turn or brake as your tyre is not on the ground soon becomes tiresome.

My ICT this weekend, loaded up after a bivy out. Took it down a fab singletrack trail in Northumberland from Bolts Law (pic) to Edmunbyers (part of an MBR Blanchland killer loop) and it devoured stuff, so much fun, well.. apart from the front tyre getting stuck in 3″ wide ruts and nearly ejecting me over the bars. No way id have got down at speed with a rigid.

Waskerly Weekend

Ah Stato,

Must be great to have a fat bike to go a ‘bivvying’ with. Alas all i have is a large pile of components i bought to fit to the Surly Wednesday (inclusing a bluto fork and dropper post)….maybe i could load them all up into a wheelbarrow and push them somewhere…

In that case, Fatty Trail. As I said exactly the same geo on the Large I compared. I had a Trail at one point (had to return due to a fault) but it was actually quite nice and also light, only odd thing was the use of a road bike headset. Should tide you over until the Wednesdays are in and only £150, tbh prob not worth waiting for a Wednesday unless you need the horiz dropouts (and im a huge surly fan, this is my 4th!).

Does the shortage of Wednesdays only refer to frames, or are the full builds out of stock everywhere too?

Also 31/8

http://www.ison-distribution.com/english/product.php?part=5SUWED4B

Unless, of course, you can find one in stock somewhere.

OK, so Large and XS are due back in stock next month, but the others are not due until August. That’s worth knowing. Thanks.

Pivot LesFat.
Now that ticks an awful lot of boxes.
Don’t think I’ve heard a real world review though.

@STATO: Love that picture and it’s good to hear the case for the Bluto too. I tend to agree with Northwind that a fatbike should be different to a trailbike, but I’m less convinced by the argument that it has to be rubbish as being rubbish is what makes it fun. No, I know that nobody is exactly making that argument, but sometimes it seems that way.

I went down this track myself a few years back when I rode a fixed gear bike (on road) for a year or so. Yes, there was all the pure simplicity stuff that you hear about, but mostly it just made me appreciate freewheels and derailleurs. I’m not even sure about my hardtail if I’m honest. Again, I like the relative simplicity and the looks, but often I just wish it had some suspension.

I must admit I dismissed the ICT when you first posted it, but the more I think about fatbikes the more I tend to think “if you want to go fat then go fat” so a 5″ capable bike has some appeal.

@rocketman: thanks for the link to the Scott, which made very interesting reading. I’d never even considered calf-bang !

Pivot LesFat.
Now that ticks an awful lot of boxes.
Don’t think I’ve heard a real world review though.

Unfortunately, at that price, you won’t be reading one from me any time soon either. It does look great though.

I think this makes a lot of sense if you already have (or plan to have) a Plus bike (29+ or B+). The Surly 4″ tyres only measure 3.8″ so you’re not arguably not stepping up much between Plus and Fat unless you go to 5″.

roverpig – Member

I’m less convinced by the argument that it has to be rubbish as being rubbish is what makes it fun.

I sometimes phrase it like that, I say “brilliantly rubbish” a lot but it’s not true really. It’s inappropriateness I like.

I think this makes a lot of sense if you already have (or plan to have) a Plus bike (29+ or B+). The Surly 4″ tyres only measure 3.8″ so you’re not arguably not stepping up much between Plus and Fat unless you go to 5″.

Yes, that’s pretty much it really. I’m already running 2.8″ tyres on my Solaris. Is it worth getting rid of a bike that I’ve enjoyed and getting a whole new bike just to get 1″ wider tyres ? I’m thinking that, if I go for the change, I might as well go the whole hog and run 4.8″ tyres. But that brings a new set of problems, such as whether my (already creaking) knees will thank me for the larger Q factor.

I suspect that what I really need is just a good dose of Spring, then I’ll forget all about fat bikes until next year 🙂

I sometimes phrase it like that, I say “brilliantly rubbish” a lot but it’s not true really. It’s inappropriateness I like.

That’s a good way to put it. It’s not rubbish; it’s brilliant at some things, but it’s fun to ride in other places too.

Woah there!! I meant “in addition to” a Plus bike, not “instead of“!!! 😆

FWIW, I’ve never had a problem with Q factor on my Fatbike. In fact, I’m just about to start looking at wider pedals (or axles) for the Plusbike as I’m getting some heelstrike (partly because I pedal like a duck)

There is a world of difference between a 3″ tyre and a 3.8″ tyre.

Just as there is a world of difference between a 2.4″ and a 3″ tyre.

Canyon Dude.
Comes with 4inch tyres, but can shift the rear axle to fit in 5inch ones.
Carbon loveliness, quite light, good kit, reasonably priced and definitely more trail than Antarctic expedition

RP- does this bring you back to the Wednesday then? (Quote from Surly site)

‘We wanted Wednesday to give you a lot of options in the tire clearance category. In the full-forward, short chainstay position you can run 26 x 3.8? tires on 80mm rims and in the full-rearward, longer chainstay position you get the option of 26 x 4.6? tires on an 80mm rim’

I kinda expected some 29er front triangles with modified rear ends from the big brands (take a stumpjumper aloy, swap the BB to 100mm, and fit some new chain/seat stays)

What do you think a specialized fatboy is? 😉 I’m cirrently running mine with the stock 80mm travel bluto, and it does feel quite ‘XC’ compared to my 150mm forked chameleon, however swinging a leg over one with an aftermarket 120mm travel one fitted changed that completely, so an air shaft swap is in order in the not too distant future…

Woah there!! I meant “in addition to” a Plus bike, not “instead of”!!!

That’s the problem, I guess and why this might not happen. It would have to replace the chubby Solaris. Each to their own, but I don’t want to end up with lots of bikes that are just slightly different to each other. Mainly because I tend to ruin rides by wondering whether I’m on the right bike 😳 I’ve got four (road, folder, full-suss trail MTB plus the chubby Solaris), as long as I ignore the Five which is missing a set of brakes, so doesn’t count ! So, it’s one on and one (or preferably two) out.

There is a world of difference between a 3″ tyre and a 3.8″ tyre.

It’s a good point and 4″ may be the sweet-spot. But it might be useful to have the option to go wider.

Canyon Dude.

I’m surprised that doesn’t get mentioned more often. Option to run 4″ (with shorter chainstays) or 5″ tyres. Light weight, great spec and value. My only concern is that I occasionally cast an envious eye at those bikepacking threads. It’s not something I have time for just now, but it’s probably an itch that will need to be scratched one day. While most fatbikes seem to be dripping with braze-ons for carrying everything the Dude just has one bottle cage! Not a deal-breaker as I dare say there are ingenious ways of attaching luggage to it for the odd trip (and it will probably never be a regular thing), but it’s something else to check out.

RP- does this bring you back to the Wednesday then?

It’s certainly still in the mix. The 4.6″ is funny though as there aren’t really 4.6″ tyres. What it seems to mean is any 4″ tyre with plenty of clearance, but not true 5″ tyres. Of course, you do get the narrower Q factor of the 100mm threaded BB rather than the wider press-fit jobs on the 5″ bikes.

If your building a Fatbike, you will be needing some wheels…

Here’s my review of a Chinese Carbon set from ICAN which I bought for my new bike. Likeght, well made and an easy tubeless set up.

Yeah, I think 4″ is the sweet spot for a rear tyre, for non snow fatbikes. Nate for winter, Huskerdu, JJ for summer. I would still go 4.8″ on the front though, if a rigid fork.