Far right attempting to subvert the farmers protests in London.

Not short of money just don’t know how to enjoy it.

In that case they can pay some taxes along with the rest of us and get the warm fuzzy glow that comes when you help fund public services...

Just read this article, and I’m wondering how to reconcile the demands that hedges, some of which are centuries old, that are hugely important to the health of our natural environment, and which are left to farmers to maintain, should have more spent to restore decades of damage, but the government wants to take huge amounts of money from those inheriting the land, so how are they supposed to find the money to run the farm, and on top pay for specialists to help advise on the restoration. Proper hedge-laying, which often has different techniques unique to different regions or counties, is a skill that takes years to learn, takes a long time to do properly, and isn’t cheap.

It seems to me that, in leu of the duties going to the government, they should be used instead to help with this crucial restoration process.

https://phys.org/news/2024-11-urgent-enable-farmers-contractors-revive.html?utm_source=flipboard&utm_content=topic/science

That IHT videos on why iht is good for farmers is very interesting and worth a watch.

Farmings now a financial instrument and the farmers are blaming the wrong thing,IHT isn’t the problem but part of the solution.

I think Farage has decided to piggyback off the backlash to Jaguars “woke” advertising campagin instead now. Got to keep pushing those culture wars!

If the bolshy farmers believed for one second that Farage wouldn't drop them like a hot brick the second something else came along - well, they're even dafter than it first appeared.

Farage was the prime mover behind convincing then to vote to cut their own throats financially, FFS.

The Richard J Murphy vid is pretty good, TBH. Probably pitched at the right level. It totally misses off in-year costs of production, though - commodities that have skyrocketed in price in the last 2-3 years. Feed, fertilisers etc. But his basic point holds - the actual margin on the actual activities of farming are not sufficient.

FWIW, many farmers do 'hedge' against commodity prices by buying in bulk and when prices are lower. But the commodities themselves are often perishable and the 'hedge' is usually at the level of a handful of farms. Looked at objectively, they are still at the mercy of commodity prices.

Murphy nails it, though. The use of farm-able land as a financial instrument (its worth in this case being in its tax avoiding ability), squeezed margins from onward supply chains (Tesco keeping very quiet at the moment), and Brexit (loss of exports, squeeze on seasonal labour and end of subsidies) - these are where their anger should be directed.

Hell, if they put it like that, they'd have the support of 85% or more of the population!

Hell, if they put it like that, they’d have the support of 85% or more of the population

Most def, but the spin being put on it by the usual suspects is ‘labour bad’ the farmers anger should be directed at the actual problem.

It seems to me that, in leu of the duties going to the government, they should be used instead to help with this crucial restoration process.

I think the question of how to farm without destroying the environment and while allowing farmers to make a reasonable living deserves a thread of its own.

Farage was the prime mover behind convincing then to vote to cut their own throats financially, FFS.

It’s probably not fashionable to say it, but you might be surprised to learn that farmers voted for Brexit in much the same way as the general population; older and less educated, and dairy voted leave, younger, more educated cereal farmers voted remain. The overall vote wasn’t so different to the 52/48 split. The NFU was in favour of remain.

(Tesco keeping very quiet at the moment),

Aren't Tesco one of the biggest landowners in the Country?

Not sure if they own "farmland" but they certainly were buying everything up a few years ago.

It’s probably not fashionable to say it, but you might be surprised to learn that farmers voted for Brexit in much the same way as the general population; older and less educated, and dairy voted leave, younger, more educated cereal farmers voted remain. The overall vote wasn’t so different to the 52/48 split. The NFU was in favour of remain.

Hence my reference to 'the bolshy farmers'. I believe the farmer vote for Leave was slightly higher than the general population (closer to 60 than 50), but the point is moot.

But I reckon that crowd on Tuesday contained a disproportionate number of that farming, Leave-voting demographic. Why wasn't Farage booed?

I think the question of how to farm without destroying the environment and while allowing farmers to make a reasonable living deserves a thread of its own.

Cirtainly - food, where it comes from, how it's produced, packaged, marketed and sold is possibly the biggest modernization failure with huge impacts on the environment & public health. The 'custodians of the land' is absolutely complete BS for the vast majority of farms.

Virtually all Farmland is "dead" nothing would prosper without fertiliser, compaction is another issue and water runoff causing flooding.

The only positive is new trees, hedges and ponds but it's a drop in the ocean.

I've just read that Farage was actually excluded from the list of speakers at the farmers demonstration over fears he would get a hot reception for his role in Brexit.

This is a bit embarrassing for our Nige, so you would think he would do the decent thing by shutting up, right? Err, no. He's now claiming that the leaders of the farmers were the cowards who were nobbled by the Tories(!)

Ah, one of the few things the professional shit-stirrer has left at this point - attempted divide and conquer. Let's hope the majority see this for what it is.

And if all else fails, Nige can wrap himself in a Union Jack and say something disparaging about foreigners.

The cynical slob.

Had a couple interesting conversations with a rural accountant and a farmer today.

Regards the 7 year rule, if a son/daughter and farther/mother who all work the family farm but live in the same house / farm. When the parents hands down the farm, the farther then has to pay rent to the son at full commercial value of the property as it's become a benefit in kind...

Had a farmer in the shop today who is just over the cusp of the iht bracket, they are landlocked by other bigger farms and landowners and would like to expand but can't afford the land even if it were available. He was quite happy for his dad's to start thinking about handing over the reigns of the land sooner, but wasn't aware of the above clause in the 7 year rule.

Seems like a bit of legislation that needs removing to me (and pretty quick)...

Regards the 7 year rule, if a son/daughter and farther/mother who all work the family farm but live in the same house / farm. When the parents hands down the farm, the farther then has to pay rent to the son at full commercial value of the property as it’s become a benefit in kind…

The son could then provide a loan form the business to his dad to pay for it. As it’s a loan it’s not taxable. The loan can written off at some point in the future consequence free.

If your rural accountant can't see some fairly obvious routes through that then they need to hand in their calculator.

If your rural accountant can’t see some fairly obvious routes through that then they need to hand in their calculator.

Was thinking the very same thing.

pay rent to the son at full commercial value of the property as it’s become a benefit in kind…

The same for any parent handing a house to a child. If you continue to derive benefit from an asset, you have not given it away so it is still subject to IHT and part of your estate. I’d be surprised if you can give things back via a loan. I imagine HMRC have something to say about such arrangements as gifting houses is not an uncommon desire. A better option might be to make the parent an employee of the farm abound pay income. You can’t do that for a parent, but they will have to pay rent if they still live in the house. That rent could be viewed as inheritance paid now, if the parent has the income.

Using loans that aren’t then repaid is a very common tax avoidance route taken by many company owners. If the loan recipient defaults and doesn’t repay the loan there are no consequences unless the company taxes action to recover the debt. Of course this doesn’t happen. HMRC can’t do anything to stop it as it’s legal and requires government legislation to close the loophole

AIUI you do have to pay tax on the loan (unless it’s for a very small amount).

It may still be more tax-efficient than other ways of taking out money especially if you’re a higher-rate taxpayer.

I'm wondering how many of these farms which earn a profit of £25-£30k a year employ an accountant at £500 a day to do the books and financial planning.

Another interesting watch by the professor

Regards the 7 year rule, if a son/daughter and farther/mother who all work the family farm but live in the same house / farm. When the parents hands down the farm, the farther then has to pay rent to the son at full commercial value of the property as it’s become a benefit in kind…

And you thought it would work how exactly?

I guess I assumed that as lots of media and commentators are saying 'just use the 7 year tax rule' if would be simple...

I guess the farmers could hand down the working part of the  farm or land, but not the property to get around it now though, or maybe not a wing of the property as is the case around  my way.

I’m still waiting to see if it is a possible 5 million tax relief or if the professor has got it wrong.

Regardless the more you look at farming you can see it’s absolutely bat-shit crazy as a business in its current state unless your using it for other reasons (Tax avoidence or a successful TV series.)

I’ve seen Clarkson got 200 million for his series so that is a pretty good return on the land 🙂

I see the farmers are back in London with their tractors. I note that if eco-protesters were blocking the capital's roads like they are they'd all be locked up and everyone would be wailing about ambulances being held up. God forbid they should have to abide by the same rules as the rest of us.

Are they blocking the roads?

Very few of the eco protestors actually got locked up but I agree all protesters should be treated the same way

Very few of the eco protestors actually got locked up but I agree all protesters should be treated the same way

But when they did they got very severe sentences.

One bloke got 5 years.

Imagine if they locked a poor multi millionaire farmer up, even for a month?

Very few of the eco protestors actually got locked up

https://juststopoil.org/court-prison/

What the difference between this and blocking the roads with slow moving tractors?

https://juststopoil.org/2024/05/08/phoebe-plummer-chiara-sarti-and-daniel-hall-on-trial-in-major-test-case-for-20-minute-march/

I was in London this morning. Tractors aren't slow moving, they're pretty quick when they floor it and are at least as quick as any other central London traffic. Those I saw around Marble Arch weren't blocking any roads, just driving, tooting their horns and enjoying their day trip to that London. A pretty incongruous sight amongst the Ubers, black cabs and couriers, but they weren't holding anyone up.

Yeah of the footage I’ve seen they’re just driving like normal traffic, I have no issue with either party protesting but let’s not make stuff up.

All these poor farmers travelling such large distances in such inefficient vehicles every two weeks. Clearly the red diesel subsidy is way too generous.

its not even front page news. they had their moment and it seems that no one really cares about the millionaires... 😉

Clearly the red diesel subsidy is way too generous.

As I understand it you can only use red diesel on the road if they are travelling between farming locations.

HMRC should dip a few tanks and get a few fines issued.

More tax dodging by the millionaires.

Very few of the eco protestors actually got locked up but I agree all protesters should be treated the same way

I'm reading 'locked up' as an expression, not actually meaning put in prison. Quite a few eco-protesters have ended up in court, and with criminal records. The tractors may not have blocked traffic in London - that would be difficult anyway with the average snails pace of traffic there - but when they've protested down here (over fuel charges?)  they have deliberately blocked main roads, which is ironic when you consider what the two camps represent.

Nobody is allowed to question anything we do, say country folk

They were out this morning at rush-hour on A14 driving East towards Felixstowe causing congestion, delaying ambulances and people heading for medical appointments. Hopefully there will be some arrests for inconvenient protesting like JSO.

A bunch of tractors all with signs on them saying STARMER THE FARMER HARMER and NO FARMERS, NO FOOD all driving around Matlock, Chesterfield, Bakewell today.

They did broadly seem to be obeying the traffic laws though. Impressive that they're all working 14-hr days, hand-to-mouth operation yet have a few hours to spare to drive around Derbyshire.

They did broadly seem to be obeying the traffic laws though. Impressive that they’re all working 14-hr days, hand-to-mouth operation yet have a few hours to spare to drive around Derbyshire.

You understand that watching the seeds sprouting and watching the lambs fatten minute by minute isn't actually how farming works?

isn’t actually how farming works?

Seems to me the way farming works is trousering massive subsidies from the taxpayer while not having to pay much back in tax. I get that farming is a 'strategic' industry but so was coal and steel and tory govts never had any problem getting rid of them. Maybe that's Starmer's plan? Engineer a battle with tory farmers and landowners to boost his 'son of a toolmaker' working class credentials and keep the non-farmer community on side?

I’m still waiting to see if it is a possible 5 million tax relief or if the professor has got it wrong.

He got it wrong as usual

From 6 April 2026, the full 100% relief from inheritance tax will be restricted to the first £1 million of combined agricultural and business property.

I get that farming is a ‘strategic’ industry but so was coal and steel and tory govts never had any problem getting rid of them.

I mean, the protests were/are called No Farmers, No Food for a reason.....they're going to have to keep on farming if we want food!

As stated earlier in the thread I'm doing my PhD on the farmer protests.

Point of order; the farmers had agreed today's protest with the police in advance, including the agreed route to travel through London after the gathering in Whitehall....they, like everyone has to, gave the police a minimum 3 weeks advanced warning and negotiated what happened. Thus, they aren't liable to get arrested.

JSO deliberately practice NVDA/civil disobedience. Disruption, law breaking and getting arrested is part of their modus operandi.

I think the government should propose increasing the farmers inheritance tax in line with everyone elses. That will shut them up.

I mean, the protests were/are called No Farmers, No Food for a reason…..they’re going to have to keep on farming if we want food!

You can always get it from someone else, everyone needs clothing but how much is made here,

In 2020, the UK imported 46% of the food it consumed. Having a diverse range of international sources makes food supply more resilient, as if the production or output of one source is disrupted, other sources can meet demand. No one country provided more than 11% of those imports, a picture which has been stable for some time. By value, £48 billion of food, feed, and drink (FFD) was imported and £21.4 billion was exported.

I do think they need to tweak it to allow the older farmers the time to pass it to the kids.

What the difference between this and blocking the roads with slow moving tractors?

Nothing. Any illegal activity perpetrated by any protestor no matter what the subject of the protest should be treated equally by the police and courts.

I do like the idea of dipping the tanks and charging those found to be using red diesel illegally

https://bsky.app/profile/josiah.writes.news/post/3lczy2becz22g

You can always get it from someone else, everyone needs clothing but how much is made here,

Yeah - sod the air miles and pollution and welfare - fly all the food in!

Yeah – sod the air miles and pollution and welfare – fly all the food in!

I think the point being made is that farming seems to get a special pass. We need/needed steel, coal, clothes, cars, etc. all of those businesses don't/didn't get the same support and don't get this special tax exemption.

We need/needed steel, coal, clothes, cars, etc.

Not the same - does Jaguar pay inheritance tax, does Tata steel, does Primark etc.?

They are run to different rules and all have their own (tax haven) ways of avoiding tax. They are not passed down parent to child.

Perhaps a solution could be a delayed inheritance tax? To take farms out of the hands of investors perhaps you shouldn't be able to sell the farm or substantial assets within 5 years of the death of the owner. If it is sold then tax it at a punitive rate. The investors will soon stop investing if they can't get their money out.

After 5 years of being farmed by the family it was left to then let it go untaxed so it can carry on to be farmed.

All businesses can get a tax exemption except for property ones

I've not really been looking at the details.  Why can't a farm be a business with family as shareholders/directors. Then surely IHT/CGT is on shares.  The bulk of the worth of the farm stays in the business and only incurs a tax bill when sold.