F1 2021 – spoilers here

Agreed. Lewis left the door open as he was trying to run Ocon wide. Max took the opportunity to get on the inside where Lewis inadvertently opened the door. It was a fair move, Lewis jinked right (or at least stopped turning left) when he saw Max and collided with Ocon who couldn’t see Max was there and so continued to turn left, crimping Lewis’ front wing.

Aggressive? Yes. Illegal? No.

That was a significant mistake from Lewis. Ocon was not a factor in that race, or the Championship, and the Alpine would have been a much easier car to chase down and overtake. Easy for an armchair viewer to say, but he should have just concentrated on shutting Max’s move down by tightly covering the inside line and let Ocon take the lead…

Easy for an armchair viewer to say, but he should have just concentrated on shutting Max’s move down by tightly covering the inside line and let Ocon take the lead…

I think Lewis was moving right partly to get a wider turn into 1 and partly because he assumed Max would be going up the middle or possibly even the outside. Max did a genuinely very good move to go all the way left and get in front by that first turn although he still relied on both the other cars to give way to him by running wide.

as you say though, easy to say that from the comfort of a sofa!

I’ve mentioned this before but…

Max lost a win in Brazil a couple of years ago getting into a tangle with Ocon, as he defended too aggressively and they came together. Ocon was unlapping himself. Fisticuffs followed, then when max was whinging to Lewis in the pre podium room, Lewis asked ‘why were you bothered? You had so much more to lose by defending’

He just hates to lose any battle, right in the moment, no considerations outside of that.

I hope RB screw up a pitstop, from rushing, leading to him having to retire due to a loose wheel nut.

Be interesting if Bottas is next to Max on the grid.
Bottas earns a gold watch, max eats gravel and Lewis disappears off into the distance.
Was nice to see Lewis congratulate Bottas after jeddah.

I assume if the 2nd driver takes out the other teams 1st, the team will be handed a big enough points penalty to mean less prize money.

You needn’t be so simplistic

It’s brilliant.

Whether you rate Hamilton or Verstappen or anyone else…

Max on the way inside of a corner – he’s trying to run Hamilton off the track. Hamilton blameless.

several times, when max has been on the inside, he has run divers off. Often by driving off the track himself. Often as a result of having so much speed he had no hope of making the corner. Hence how he appeared on the inside.

It’s more than possible to be on the side and *not* run the other driver off.

Hamilton isn’t blameless here.

Though I note that when he did run max out of room, Hamilton did stay between the lines, and max could have chosen to stay on track too – though behind Hamilton.

Max gave Lewis no option but to run off track or crash.

Max on the outside – he’s not given room to Hamilton and only has himself to blame when Hamilton drives into him. Hamilton blameless.

If you mean silverstone here, Hamilton wasn’t blameless – and was penalised. That’s not to say that max *was* totally innocent. He had options, and taking those options would have been better for him. But he chose not to.

Hamilton collides with Ocon – Verstappen to blame. Hamilton blameless.

Don’t be obtuse. Practically the only nice things said about max for the last few pages were about that corner. It was a hard but fair move, Hamilton and Ocon dealt well with it, notably Ocon. And both ended up behind max, after showing good sense and good sportsmanship. And both continued in the race, un-penalised and scored points.

Who know that good sense and sportsmanship might be a way to go.

But don’t cry wolf with your simplistic version, it does your argument no favours.

Just for the vein popping fun I’d like to see:

MV on pole LH on 2 Perez on 3. MV stutters the start Perez into the back of him enough to damage the suspension but not hurt anyone. Perez gets wing fix MV retires end of lap 1. Perez goes from 18th(for wing change) to win.

Regarding the Lewis / Ocon / Max into the first corner.

I think it was a tricky situation for Lewis. If he didn’t get in front on the first corner he could have been under a lot of pressure from Max around the lap as he would have to run to Ocon’s pace and be backed into Max.

If he stayed on the inside he would have to rely on Ocon to not turn into him or he would be compromised on the exit and possibly Max would be in a different position not on the inside and get a better exit.

I’m not sure there was another low risk option for Lewis to come out safely in the lead. He would have required Ocon to have not tried off the line and just let him through.

I could quite easily expect that if it is going wrong for mv and he finds himself a way behind to find some way of ensuring he can punt lh off

It’s actually quite hilarious listening to Coulthard’s commentary.

While I agree that some of MVs racing has been on/over the limit this year, he has also produced some absolutely sublime racing. The move to the inside of HAM on the 2nd restart was faultlessly judged. Truth be told he is probably HAMs 1st true rival in competitive machinery in terms of raw talent since Alonso and HAM raced for Mclaren.

The antics of Jos, Horner & Marko only serve to take the polish off the talent and it could be argued that Ron Dennis and Mclaren did the same to HAM in his early career.

Mercedes & Wolff have recognized HAMs (mainly off-track/soft skill/mental tenacity) weaknesses and done everything to round out the edges particularly after learning from the Rosberg rivalry. HAM has never been mentally more strong and resistant to pressure.

Imagine if MV had the same coaching and support. Yet we have JOS making headlines as to why MV will never race for Mercedes this week.

Best thing for Max’s career would be to shake off Dad and the Red Bull toxicity. Or end up like Seb?!

4 world titles to his name? Could be worse

The odd thing is that Redbull weren’t toxic (as you put it) until Max came along. Now, whether they actually are, or are just having to be in order to stick with Max (and have Max stick with them), I genuinely don’t know.

As for Seb, Seb is one of the nicest and funniest drivers, sure he has a temper and his skills seem to have waned in recent years, but if anything, I like him all the more. Seb, like Lewis seems to be all about activism and positivity these days. I’d imagine that those two will become good friends if they haven’t already.

Needs a Wacky Races type commentary option, (other than that provided by DC.)

The Hamilton maturity started when he and his father went separate ways, albeit a couple of years of playboy fun followed.

Fair points, which I’ll try to respond to. Yes, Seb had incredible success – but was also unceremoniously sidelined as soon as Ricciardo looked faster. None of us know what went on internally, but after bringing 4 WC had probably earned a little more respect.

As a Ferrari fan was delighted to see him move. Came agonizingly close in lesser machinery more than once.

Have his skills waned? Not quite sure….hunger and overarching desire to succeed at all costs, probably. Love to see Aston get the equation right and give Seb a competitive car next year as there are still flashes of brilliance to be seen there.

Red Bull toxicity seems to be shaped predominately by Horner, who has surpassed even Ron Dennis for being undignified in victory. Just like Ron was consumed with beating Ferrari at all costs with the mutters of favoritism, so it is with Horner & Mercedes. Toxicity driven out of a desire to succeed, but no way that is being shaped by Max IMHO. He is 25 years of age surrounded by people with way more life/management/political experience. Not sure if Dietrich Mateschitz envisioned his team winning like this?

Have I missed something, as nobody in the thread or anywhere has commented on if and why Max eventually gave up the lead to Hamilton?

Not sure if it was just his tyres giving up – it looked like he slowed a lot and even the crew said he didn’t have to do it on the radio.

I’d like to think that guilt got the better of him and he didn’t want to be remembered as a total dick, so gave the place up. I’m probably wrong though.

Have I missed something, as nobody in the thread or anywhere has commented on if and why Max eventually gave up the lead to Hamilton?

Yep, it was a weird one that

Really?

Did anyone really say all that? No. But then you know that.

Have I missed something, as nobody in the thread or anywhere has commented on if and why Max eventually gave up the lead to Hamilton?

Didn’t he say something like he couldn’t win by enough to overcome the time penalty so what was the point in pushing. Could be totally wrong.

Did Hell just freeze over?

Red Bull advisor Dr Helmut Marko says he “is sorry” because his initial assessment of Lewis Hamilton and Max Verstappen’s collision at the Saudi Arabian Grand Prix was “obviously not correct”.#F1 #TeamLH #SaudiArabianGPhttps://t.co/Qw845VnH7U

— Mercedes F1 News – SilverArrows.Net (@SilverArrowsNet) December 7, 2021

Whuuuuut?!?

He’s had his account hacked, surely

Has he been reading this thread lol

Wow! Was not expecting that in a millions years! Must be a glitch in the Matrix?

RB seem to be on a “if there’s a crash it weren’t us” campaign about the next race.

Unprecedented contrition from Darth Helmut

I hope RB screw up a pitstop, from rushing, leading to him having to retire due to a loose wheel nut.

Would be quite funny for him to try to barge someone off again, go wheel to wheel and end up flipping like Stroll at Bahrain last year.  Low speed, no injury, but completely end his race because he won’t back out.  Like someone else said, would be even better if the RB car turns out to be completely dominant and Perez ends up winning the race with Hamilton 5 minutes behind in second place.

If Max does punt LH off and win this year, would it be fair for all the rest of the drivers to gang up and each take him out, one race each, next year?

Each team choose a race where they will not be doing well and then just swerve into Max while being over taken, drive straight on at a corner putting him in the gravel etc. Each driver gets one telling off but not enough to really cause them an issue and Max gets 23 DNFs.

Not suggesting it is sporting but if you want to push every rule to the limit and accept that professional fouls count as part of your race strategy, that might be considered an option

Must be a glitch in the Matrix? Mateschitz

Elsewhere, that Marko quote is slightly different:

“At the time of the television interview, I passed on exactly the information I had previously received from the engineers,” he told f1-insider.com.

“They obviously weren’t right, so I’m sorry.”

Fair enough, that’s the right thing to do.

It’s always amusing when they say – I haven’t seen the data – it’s not like they don’t have a room full of experts analysing the data in real time ….. 🤷‍♂️

“At the time of the television interview, I passed on exactly the information I had previously received from the engineers,[missed end of engineers comments] because he would be a complete dick to brake test LH with telemetry logging his actions[missed end of engineers comments]”

“They obviously weren’t right, so I’m sorry [missed quote end] but it appears that Max is a complete dick[/missed quote end].”

Would be quite funny for him to try to barge someone off again, go wheel to wheel and end up flipping like Stroll at Bahrain last year. Low speed, no injury, but completely end his race because he won’t back out.

Out of interest, has there ever been an occasion of an F1 car (or lower Formula) doing a full barrel roll and being able to carry on racing? Something fast enough to flip over but slow enough to not break everything.

I would think if you flipped it and carried on you’d be black flagged no matter what. The safety implications would be massive. Loading the suspension that had taken those landing lateral forces would be madness.

I have no doubt it’d be straight back to the pits to retire, just wondered if it had ever happended. All I can remember are either slow speed ones such as Hulk at Abu Dhabi left upside down “hanging like a cow” or the full speed multiple flips that end up pretty much just sat in a safety cell with no wheels or wings remaining.

 Something fast enough to flip over but slow enough to not break everything.

I don’t think you could accomplish both TBH. F1 cars are designed to suck onto the ground, and are built light for the obvious reasons. Enough force to get them into the air and rolling is probably going to be also sufficient to break something seriously enough to finish your race. If you tried, you’d probably be black flagged for your own and everyone else’s safety.

Certainly never seen it with open wheels, rally cars get away with it a lot more due to the big cage and the wheels having a little bit of protection

pocpoc

Out of interest, has there ever been an occasion of an F1 car (or lower Formula) doing a full barrel roll and being able to carry on racing? Something fast enough to flip over but slow enough to not break everything.

I would expect it is impossible. The forces required to flip the car at a speed high enough to allow it to go all the way over & carry on would be high enough to break/damage the car. It’s not like they have a James Bond-esque barrel roll ramp at the side of the track.
Would be even harder for cars with downforce, as you would not only have to overcome the weight of the car, but the downforce as well.

Elsewhere, that Marko quote is slightly different:

“At the time of the television interview, I passed on exactly the information I had previously received from the engineers,” he told f1-insider.com.

“They obviously weren’t right, so I’m sorry.”

Nothing from the Whinger Spice contrition department?