I am not sure the manufacturing industry was in tip top shape before she got involved, TJ. You can’t pretend that China would not have taken all our business regardless of whoever was in power. They have something we will never have – billions of very poor people.

Germany seems to do alright in this regard…

As ive said before i carnt wait till she,s dead , thanks to her the area i live became a police state during the pit strike and she let the met police get up to antics that has turned people to have no trust in the police force since.
I belive in time history will show her to have been a very poor PM she had short term fixes that have cause long term proplems for this country every since just like the tories are doing today.
Of course if you or your family were one of the very few who did well during her time then the fact that people are living in almost povity even when working full time if there lucky to have a job at all is a price worth paying as your alright.

hard drugs were almost unheard of.

Yes, TJ. It was the Conservative rule in the 80s that enabled the global drug trade. 🙄

thanks to her the area i live became a police state during the pit strike and she let the met police get up to antics that has turned people to have no trust in the police force since.

Not because of those undertaking illegal activity who required to be policed then?

Depraved reptilian scum – utterly devoid of humanity.

I will happily suspend my devout atheism so I can believe in the fires of hell being well and truly stoked when she goes

… and that’s Thatcher summed up. She turns the most rationale of us into vitriol spouting ….

Radio 4 had a piece on the new yesterday am. Afterwards the presenters (I think Humphries & Naughtie) were saying that the thing with Thatcher was that the film, or even TV at the time, could not portray how “truly terrifying she was in person, up front and personal”

They’re not exactly shrinking violets

The thing I remember most as a kid was taking tins of soup to give the firemen at our local station

We had next to nowt and yet more than these families who had be on strike for a year

I have lined up a bottle of red wine for the day she dies, I will stop what I’m doing. Go home and get blind drunk. Probably run around naked singing ding dong the witch is dead

I can’t imagine what the pit communities suffered but I,ve met quite few people from those areas and their feeling in off universal hatred of that particular woman

Spiriting image should be you education on the matter

Too tall its a simple truth. In the 70s hard drug addiction was not the problem it became in the 80s. Poverty and social exclusion are strongly linked to heroin usage. there is no doubt that there was a massive rise in hard drug use during the thatcher years in parallel with the massive rise in poverty and social exclusion.

Here you go emsz

why not?

In an attempt to answer the question rather than score points.
I don’t doubt that the investment wasn’t needed, but this is a question about why Thatcher is hated by some and loved by others.
I think you’ve answered the question in part by not listening to the question.
Why do I consider that way the water cos were privatised was not a good example, because the OFWAT had to be formed as was the other agency we hadn’t needed previously, the DWI. People saw an opportunity to make money for themselves at the expense of others. The cost of water went up, operating profits went up.investment went down and quality was reduced until OFWAT had to introduce an element of self control.
East Anglia is a name that springs to mind.
The privatization of a company to raise money for investment is a good thing, provided it’s managed properly.
Privatizing companies to make a lot of money for a few at the expense of many is quite simply wrong.

So Thatcher closed down coal mines and bought the coal from elsewhere which successfully stopped the coal miners from holding the country to ransom

True,

It’s the Russians now

Not because of those undertaking illegal activity who required to be policed then?

Those undertaking perfectly legal practices such as protesting and picketing were “policed” as you put it. In the most brutal way.

I was having a “tidy up” at home a couple of months ago, and found a box of stuff from my student days…

In that box was a cartoon of Thatcher that I drew at the time (mid 80s). I’ll post it up – If this thread hasn’t been closed down by the time I can re- find and scan! Can’t claim the cartoonography is up to much, but it works ok as a contemporaneous record of what people thought at the time (FWIW most folks I knew thought the cartoon was overly flattering)

Nice thread emsz..

Brought out the best in STW this one.

You will of course end up sitting on one side of the fence, but make informed choices yeah, not the sort of choice spouted in vitriolic fashion here.

And you can change your mind about her. I sat one side of the fence for a good few years, now I sit the other. I feel neither agerieved nor singled out, she did some good and some bad, but overall she changed the way politics is both viewd and used and modelled all over the WORLD

Those undertaking perfectly legal practices such as protesting and picketing were “policed” as you put it. In the most brutal way.

The miners were no real problem and usually had a good ‘working relationship’ with the police on the front line. The rent-a-crowd activists who really went to town caused the worst of the problems.

TJ – you, along with many others, refuse to see the ‘Thatcher years’ in context and look at the global picture as a whole. I am no apologist for any party, but isolating what you want to ensure your arguement remains strong undermines your perpetual arguements. Drugs increased in availability globally throughout the 70s and 80s and became a crutch instead of (or as well as) alcohol, the previous norm. You may link poverty in areas with political decisions of the time, but linking the spread of drugs is ridiculous if you ignore the global drug industry and its growth.

Oh no tootall I see her in context all right. Its the apologists for her that do not.

As for the drugs – It is an indisputable fact that the was a massive growth in heroin use in the 80s and most academics working in the area agree that there is a strong link between social exclusion, poverty and hard drug use.

If you pursue policies that lead to poverty and social exclusion then a rise in hard drug use is an inevitable corollary of this.

So yes – the heroin epidemic of the 80s while having multiple causes the most important one was the economic policies pursued by the tory governments.

Remember mass unemployment was a deliberate policy.

“rent a crowd” lazy stereotyping and acceptance of tory propaganda

Interesting political description of what she was and how she went about it, but a couple of points essentially missed, first off you have to remember this happened during ‘life on mars seventies’ wimmen hadn’t really come to the fore and here she was a female absolutely ruling the ‘wets’ as they were called at the time (Wets were what you could best describe as the more humanitarian politicians in the Tory party).
We’d just suffered the late seventies with such low esteem as Brits, we couldn’t afford to travel abroad, our currency was worth nothing, inflation had eroded everything, you would apologise for being a Brit it was that bad.
Don’t get me wrong here, I absolutely hated the woman for the way she pretty much militarised the police, deregulated everything, imported Reganomics and was totally enthralled to that monetarist Alan Whateverhisname was.
In the winter of 81-2 however she was on the ropes, the recession she’d caused had pissed everyone off and she’d have been resigned to the margins of history had the Argies not invaded the Malvinas, she seized that opportunity, galvanised the tossers, was Churchillian in her response and given we didn’t have much going on in the way of firepower, did a fair job of beating up a third world nation in true tradition of Empire and Gunboat diplomacy and won the day, sinking the Belgrano showed a totally ruthless streak, from there on in, all the right wing yuppy rednecks had a field day..

But strangely we did as a nation all feel a bit better about ourselves and the good old eighties ensued and damn I wish I was back there counting the loadsamoney I made back then, not that I ever voted for her or them, I’m still an SDP man at heart.

But the worse travesty of modern times, we eventually kick the bastards out and in the spring of 97 with a new hope a fresh young Blair and his steadfast dour Scottish companion looking to keep him anchored all was going to be so much better… What was that song again?

Her government did some good stuff and some not so good stuff, like most governments in fact.
The vitriolic hatred is, IMO, more than just political/ideological/social opposition, it’s a convenient ‘catch all’ for the disaffected underacheiving 60’s kids who thought they ‘had it all to live for’ when in fact it was ‘all to work for’

It is odd to see so many comfortably off, self proclaimed middle class 40-50 somethings ranting and frothing in defence of the underclass – I mean that phrase says it all, “underclass” – when of course you guys are “upperclass” then I guess.

“It” was there all the time, the Thatcher government just bought it out into plain sight, there’s always been whingers and scroungers and skivers and I guess there always will be – it’s the downside of a society with social care and support that some will see it as an opportunity to freeload rather than as a means of caring for those with genuine need…..

And, it all rather begs the question: if Fatch was as bad as you now proclaim why did she survive so long and why didn’t your “undeclass” rise up and overthrow the shackles (and what were you doing about it) – possibly because most working people weren’t doing quite as badly as you now claim.

And Yes, I was there, and No it wasn’t the Fatch-a-geddon you now like to conveniently blame for all your problems.
Get over it, and do something positive instead of bleating and whining………

We got ‘policed’

Worksop roundabout on the A1, stopped and refused permission to carry on and told to **** off back to where we came from
They refused to believe that 2 lads on motorbikes were actually heading off to Holland to watch motorbike racing

Policing Thatcher style

She came into power to clean up a right shit mess that Labour had created for almost a decade.

People in basic jobs tend to blame people as far as their nose. Rather than the economic situation that got the country into that situation. So they blamed the current government (Thatchers) for the decisions she had to take.

Then these same folk told their children it wasn’t Daddies fault but Thatchers why they were being brought up in straightened-circumstances.

Maybe if Daddy had worked harder or read some books at school then a generation of kids who grew up ‘hating Thatcher’ might actually have known the truth or blamed their own **** parents.

What would have happened if Wilson had still been in power in the Falklands invasion? We’d have folded on that and forever more our reputation tarnished globally.

On milk, I drank it all through the 80’s at school. Hateful lukewarm stuff out of small glass bottles!!

Funny, even ironic how Scargill is now **** over his own union isn’t it?

I’m neither a fan or a hater of her as my own family grew up in poverty however I do admire the woman.

Stronger than any male leader we’ve had in decades.

I’ll leave it there and wont get involved in ongoing arguing. Pointless as you need to blame your own parents for your upbringing than a government.

No jobs? Travel, move. Look at the thousands of immigrants coming here for a better life.

What would have happened if Wilson had still been in power in the Falklands invasion? We’d have folded on that and forever more our reputation tarnished globally

I blame George III

She came into power to clean up a right shit mess that Labour had created for almost a decade.

Which she did, then went too far.

(and what were you doing about it)

Active in trade unions, working in healthcare, supporting my missus working with the poorest in society as a volunteer. We did what we could.

The vitriolic hatred is because of what she symbolises. The greed and begger my neighbour attitude and the deliberate creation of an underclass of long term unemployed which is a matter of historical record.

The huge rise in unemployment especially long term unemployment and youth unemployment along with the huge reduction in benefits caused massive social ills that we still are paying the price for today. You may belive this is a price worth paying as she did but to deny its existence is ridiculous in the face of the historical record

She brought the top tax rate down from 83% to 40%.

If any lentil eating socialist lefty wuss thinks that’s wrong, you can meet me behind the bike sheds after school and I’ll knock some sense into you.

I was but a child during the eighties and my parents were working class and they were staunch Maggie fans.

I like Maggie.

“rent a crowd” lazy stereotyping and acceptance of tory propaganda

No. Just years of conversations with people who were actually there TJ.

I’d put the housing policies of Glasgow City on a par with your causes as well. Your quoted areas of Darnley, Arden and Carnawrdric are often held up as examples of terrible social housing that just moved problems and created new ones. That was going on since the 50s as they were essentially inner city slum clearance – exactly the same as areas of the North East (Meadowell Estate, Byker Wall etc) that suffered similar problems for similar reasons. Your desire to argue back to ‘Thatcher’ reflects the personification that undermines a rational arguement.

Whether you are a fan or not, it will be a sad day when shes passes away.

I don’t think anyone can have the same emotion over Gordon Brown or his Tony Bliar.

TandemJeremy – Member
The greed and begger my neighbour attitude and the deliberate creation of an underclass of long term unemployed which is a matter of historical record.

Why keep calling them “underclass” ? little bit patronising isn’t it…

..and I’m sure the rise of consumerism and capitalist values would have happened regardless.
Labour Party hardly “put it right” when they had the chance did they….

Emsz, she was the prime mover in shutting down most of the basic industries in the North East, where I’m from. Whole towns annd villages essentially had their life support switched off, and many have never recovered.

That wouldn’t have been so bad if it was part of a political strategy to gradually switch away from coal mining & steel production. But no, this was politics driven by a purely ideological hatred of the unions and a desire to break them. Politics is, as they say, the art of the possible, and needs to be driven by pragmatism, realism, and just a little bit of ideology.

Thatcher had way too much ideology, and didn’t have any real clue about what to do once she’d shut everything down. Then again, because the people she put out of work were mainly Northern manual workers who would never have voted for her, why did she need to care? They could just get on theior beikes and find a new job somewhere else.

And then she did what every political leader has done when times got bad – she took us to war, and wrapped herself in the flag.

She’s a despicable woman, and I’ll be happy when she’s dead.

(and what were you doing about it)

Broke into [they left a window open] the the local Tory club and shat on the billiard table 🙂

Sorry, I got sidetracked about clause 28. I’d heard about it but never really understood it. Kinda understand now why my school were so relunctant to do anything about the bullying I got. Interesting.

GlitterGary not a troll I promise, I really just wanted to try to understand why she provokes such divided views.
TJ I don’t understand why a govt would Diliberatly make a whole class of unemployed people, it makes no sense

You can’t blame Thatcher for todays problems, only insofar as Blair wanted to be like her, whilst Brown wanted to be something else, either way it is they who have totally **** everything up, they had a chance to undo the so called ‘evils’ of deregulation but didn’t, they lapped it up, totally eradicated boom and bust as I recall..

As to immigration we’ve bred a nation of wannabe celebs, they want MTB style cribs, the trappings of pop celebrity without necessarily having the talent, after all Jade Goody became famous so why can’t they?

Eastern Europeans know the truth, money comes with work, so they wash our cars, wait table, serve at reception desks, carry our hods up ladders and do all the things that our would be celebs don’t want to do, whilst they queue up for X-factor, or wire into X-Box transported to an alternate reality.

Sadly until we stop paying em to do nothing, nothing is what they’ll continue to do, until they become famous of course.

What really needs to happen is a fresh ideology based on equality and fair play for all, globally, enough being defined and limited with wealth distributed more equally, some form of modern day communocapitolism, something for the kids to get behind and rebel, maybe throw up some conviction politicians, life can’t go on like this, with no hope for a better future and just looking for scapegoats in the past.

nickf so if you found there was no work in your area now what would you do?

Would you feel right sitting on the dole?

We all speak the same language in this country. So why didn’t your folks do this?

Thatcher wanted to close the unprofitable state-mines. The resulting long industry strikes (thanks Scargill) had a crippling effect which ended up with alot more closing.

Would you have proposed running loss-making businesses as the right thing to do on the back of the fact Labour had driven the economy into the ground hence where she was coming from.

She was trying to bring the UK out of the brink and the **** idiot unions held a YEAR long strike….just like what the unions had tried with Labour previously.

I think you should pissing on your own who feast off you still than her fella.

As a Scot who grew up in the 80’s best if I don’t contribute to this,as I struggle to be objective. I don’t hate her anymore as she is a once sharp,determined woman who is imprisoned by dementia. But God,she broke my country.

TJ I don’t understand why a govt would Diliberatly make a whole class of unemployed people, it makes no sense

(simplistically) Two aims -one is to drive down the cost of labour. if there are loads of people looking for work then you can get people to take on those jobs under low wages thus increasing profits. The second is to break the power of the unions. (Along with laws brought in by her government) But it removes the power of the strike if you have a large number of people so desperate for work that they will cross picket lines. also the job losses were concentrated in highly unionise areas.

Mass unemployment creates the conditions for a transfer of wealth from poor to rich.

In thatchers own words ” its a price worth paying” and ” if its not hurting its not working”

GlitterGary not a troll I promise, I really just wanted to try to understand why she provokes such divided views.

I think its fairly well summed up on here actually – you can see the polarised views

TJ I don’t understand why a govt would Diliberatly make a whole class of unemployed people, it makes no sense

Maybe not a whole class, but as a policy having a proportion of a people unemployed may keep inflation down.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillips_curve

TandemJeremy – Member
TJ I don’t understand why a govt would Diliberatly make a whole class of unemployed people, it makes no sense
(simplistically) Two aims -one is to drive down the cost of labour. if there are loads of people looking for work then you can get people to take on those jobs under low wages thus increasing profits. The second is to break the power of the unions. (Along with laws brought in by her government) But it removes the power of the strike if you have a large number of people so desperate for work that they will cross picket lines. also the job losses were concentrated in highly unionise areas.

Mass unemployment creates the conditions for a transfer of wealth from poor to rich.

In thatchers own words ” its a price worth paying” and ” if its not hurting its not working”

Hmm I think your in danger of a distinct lack of objectivity, I seem to remember the ad that got her elected was a picture of crowds headed to the dole queue and the legend “Labours not Working’ which it wasn’t and unemployment was already high and like now, you had unions making unrealistic demands.

a picture of crowds headed to the dole queue and the legend “Labours not Working’ which it wasn’t and unemployment was already high

See if you can guess from the graph when it was she was elected

So to summise.

1970’s – economy run into the ground through rampant inflation, unsustainable public sector bills, unions striking.

1980’s – someone has to turn things round, pull the country back from the brink and close loss-makers etc that caused the issues.

Who gets it in the neck? Is it her fault that historically the only real thing that Wales, NE had were really dependent on a small number of industries.

Whose fault was that?

Esmz – Thatcher was personally utterly homophobic. Thanks Junkyard for bringing up section 28, it’s often overlooked amongst all the other appalling things that were introduced during the Thatcher / Conservative years.

I was living in inner city Leeds with my girlfriend at the time, and I still have a taped copy of one of Thatchers speeches where she said:

“The trouble with the youth of today is that they think they have an unalienable right to be gay”

Too damn right we do! (Actually we sampled it, and mixed it with a Kylie song which started ‘We should be so lucky …” 🙂 )

Personally, dancing shoes at the ready, singing along to the witch is dead.