Forum menu
big_n_daft - Memberstrange that the pre 79 unclass that I remember seem identical to the one we have now
Spend any time as an adult in the big council schemes pre 79 did you?
I did.
Darnley / Arden and Carnwadrick on the south side of Glasgow. Yes there wa unemployment and social ills - however most people worked and hard drugs were almost unheard of. Now? Its a very different place. Thats what decades of mass unemployment does for a society
Do folks really think a Thatcher argument is ever going to end well or change minds in the slightest?
No, but it is giving emsz a bit of an insight into the whole Thatcher thing, which is good.
Spend any time as an adult in the big council schemes pre 79 did you?I did.
😆 😆 😆
Goodnight all. 😉
No, but it is giving emsz a bit of an insight into the whole Thatcher thing, which is good.
Fair point.
I'll give you a hand to start - the most recent PM to get a larger share of the vote than Maggie got was Ted Heath.
yes - and he had a slim majority - without the divided opposition she would not have got the huge majorities. That the point
At least she won her war.
Don't cry for me Argentina.
Her main fault was she applied an ideology to government. Ideologies are always disastrous regardless of colour.
Actaully 1997 labour was not so bad. Blair consolidated his grasp on policy later. Devolution came out of that government for example
I'm not really sure you should bring up water companies as a success story and advertisement for privatization.
why not?
how else were we going to raise the billions needed for the enviromental restoration they've doing for the last 20 years?
I'm sure it could have been done better but they didn't have hindsight at the time and the regulator has been tying itself in knots to maintain the cross subsidies that keep your bills down.
She was so hated that she got re-elected - twice and her policies so reviled that "New" labour adopted them whole-heartedly in order to get elected.Does anyone remember all that Thatcher legislation that Tony Blair over-turned when New Labour got into power? All the industries they re-nationalised? The increased control they re-exerted over the financial services? Nope - neither do I.
druidh - you do know that the traditional rabids of this forum will largely ignore your pertinent comments of argue right around them.
Why argue around something thats easy to explain?
Thatcher tried out one big social experiment on the country. She set out to turn the working class into middle class, and attempted to improve the material wealth for the individuals of this nation which is not necessarily a bad thing.
So she got re-elected because of this and a weak opposition which in turn had to become more "middle ground", hence Tony Blair. Of course once new labour came to power, they weren't going to upset the "mondeo man" voters by doing anything particularly left wing and they weren't going to upset the city, which was becoming more and more vital to the UK economy(after Thatchers de-regulation) since manufacturing was in decline. Manufacturing was too working class.
Her failures are real slow burners, and one of them only reared its ugly head in 2007-2008 when the de-regulated markets crashed in the city that had become too powerful, because it knew we had become too reliant on financial services, and had little else to fill the void, all watched over by politicians who had followed her policies to become electable.
There are many subsets within the class system, but the way I see it is you now have the underclass, the aspiring class, the true middle class and the upper class.
Apart from the underclass, The the ones who you would call working class 25 years or so back, through the right to buy(thatcher policy), cheap credit and loans and mortgages(De-regulation), which enabled them to buy houses, cars, white goods and shit loads of plasma TV's and so forth suddenly believed they were middle class and behaved accordingly, hence the very middle of the road political parties, these are the aspiring class. And their aspirations are now definitely looking downwards.
The true middle class and the upper class sail on as if very little has happened.
The Thatcherite and subsequently Reaganite policies of the 80's sowed the seeds of the trouble both economically and socially we have today.
Big and daft - I'd like to know what you actually know about life in the poorer parts of our cities pre 79.
People can make their own minds up about Thatcher (and I am sure that the dance on her grave type suggestions will not receive the same kind of abuse as Clarkson's poor attempt at humour yesterday).
But any review of what she did/was forced to do, should not be made without a full understanding of the context in which she came to power. It was my childhood and a bloody miserable time characterised by:
Unprecedented levels of inflation (26% in 1975, took until 1985 to get back to 1970s levels)
The highest UN since the WW2
Stagflation
A bankcrupt economy - requiring international funding of $5000m
Declining economic growth
BoP crises leading to emergency deflationary budgets
The Labour Government introducing what ironically became known as "the first Thatcher budget"
The Winter of Discontent
Power cuts - doing homework by candlelight
Rubbish in the streets
A crisis of confidence in the UK leading to massive capital flight
Catastrophically high rates of marginal taxation
I am sure that life in certain parts of the Uk were not fun under Thatcher but it was far from a barrel of laughs for the whole economy under the previous Labour government. One again the selective memory of some astounds - even by STW standards
Do folks really think a Thatcher argument is ever going to end well or change minds in the slightest?
Not in the slightest
I am sure that life in certain parts of the Uk were not fun under Thatcher but it was far from a barrel of laughs for the whole economy under the previous Labour government. One again the selective memory of some astounds - even by STW standards
But all those problems pre-thatcher Government does not excuse all what she set out to do and the subsequent problems that were created by thatcherite policies since.
TINA? There were always other ways.
A time of potentially massive prosperity because of the oil money lost and the money wasted on paying benefits. Her economic policies were disastrous. with high inflation, low growth, massive unemployment. its only the oil money that stopped the country gong bankrupt
I think you will find that the privatisation was more about taking the industries (and the required future capital investment) of the governments balance sheets. It also had the advantage of pushing the idea of share ownership at large numbers of the population and the staff of the companiesFor the naysayers have a look at the water industries in Scotland and Nortern Ireland, both have massive issues around future investment which simply won't happen if it raises the public debt regardless of who is in power.
We are certainly paying the "price" now aren't we? The only success privatization has been is to the shareholders.
but it's far simpler to have a bogeywoman to blame everything on
There's this book called the bible and the first chapter is called Genesis...you get my point.
I'm an ordinary man, nothin' special nothin' grand,
I've had to work for everything I own,
Well I never asked for a lot, I was happy with what I got,
Enough to keep my family and my home,
Now they say that times are hard & they've handed me my cards,
They say there's not the work to go around,
When the whistle blows the gates will finally close,
Tonight they're going to shut this factory down,
Then they'll tear it down.
I never missed a day nor went on strike for better pay,
For 20 years I served them best I could,
With a handshake and a cheque it seems so easy to forget,
Loyalty through the bad times and the good,
The owner says he's sad to see that things have got so bad,
But the Captains of industry won't let him loose,
He still drives a car and smokes a cigar,
And still he takes his family on a cruise,
He'll never lose.
Now it seems to me to be such a cruel irony,
He's richer now ever he was before,
Now my cheque is all spent and I can't afford the rent,
There's one law for the rich, one for the poor,
Every day I've tried to salvage some of my pride,
To find some work so's I might pay my way,
But everywhere I go, the answer is always no,
There's no work for anyone here today,
No work today.
And so condemned I stand, just an ordinary man,
Like thousands beside me in the queue,
I watch my darlin' wife tryin' to make the best of life,
God knows what the kids are goin' to do,
Now that we are faced with this human waste,
A generation cast aside,
For as long as I live, I never will forgive,
You've stripped me of my dignity & pride,
You've stripped me bare.
...in the 1970sits only the oil money that stopped the country gong bankrupt
TJ - please fell free to have your usual last word. Nothing will change you opinion or the likelihood of some balance in the points. But in your sleep think about re-phrasing your last sentance in the context of the 1970s economic history of the UK. My last comment, as I have no interest in the usual TJ bashing into submission. History will tell it as it is.
Good night.
context in which she came to power. It was my childhood and a bloody miserable time characterised by:Unprecedented levels of inflation (26% in 1975, took until 1985 to get back to 1970s levels)
The highest UN since the WW2
Stagflation
A bankcrupt economy - requiring international funding of $5000m
Declining economic growth
BoP crises leading to emergency deflationary budgets
The Labour Government introducing what ironically became known as "the first Thatcher budget"
The Winter of Discontent
Power cuts - doing homework by candlelight
Rubbish in the streets
A crisis of confidence in the UK leading to massive capital flight
Catastrophically high rates of marginal taxation
Just to pick one out, I can't be bothered going through it all......[i]"Declining economic growth"[/i].
The downward trend continued under Thatcher :
yes - and he had a slim majority - without the divided opposition she would not have got the huge majorities. That the point
What, like the majority Tony got in 2001 (bigger majority than Maggie ever got) on a smaller share of the vote than Maggie ever got? Terrible thing these divided oppositions.
It's that there Churchill who you should really get upset about if you're bothered about electoral unfairness. After all, Atlee actually got a higher share of the vote, yet Chuchill unfairly became PM. We all hate him for it.
Or maybe that pesky Ramsay MacDonald - he won despite getting a whole 1% less of the popular vote than the rightful winner Stanley Baldwin. If only it hadn't been for that jumped up nobody Lloyd George splitting the opposition vote.
Indeed history will tell it - as the numbers do now.
Thatchers "economic miracle" was based on spending a once only bonanza of the oil money as revenue - wasting it on paying people to do nothing instead of using it to create prosperity for the future.
Oil - very little was brought ashore before 1976 - most of the production was in the 80s.
So teamhurtmore - the oil production had little economic impact until the last couple of years of the 70s and didn't really take off until into the 80s.
The downward trend continued under Thatcher :
Somebody should have pointed out to whoever fitted the blue "trend line" to that data that "lies, damn lies and statistics" isn't an aspiration.
Nice bit of Christy there Seosamh 🙂
deadlydarcy - Member
Nice bit of Christy there Seosamh
Aye canny whack him! That song's as relevant today as it ever was.
teamhurtmore
Good post(s). I'm old enough to remember that too.
I had a poignant reminder this week of how 'wonderful' things were pre Thatcher, when men were men and toiled at the coal face, in the shape of an ex-miner bent double coughing his guts up and barely able to breathe. Not many of them left now.
teamhurtmore - MemberIt was my childhood and a bloody miserable time characterised by:
Woody - MemberGood post. I'm old enough to remember that too.
What's all this [i]"you don't know I was there"[/i] bollox ?
As if it's any sort of argument.
Is that [b]your[/b] argument?What's all this "you don't know I was there" bollox ?As if it's any sort of argument.
Of course you are right ernie. Personal experience is no substitute for extrapolating 'facts' from questionable sources to support an argument.
Ah - but I was there too and I watch society unravel under the stress of the mass unemployment.
Its a part of the reason why Thatcher is so divisive. if you did OK under he you did really well - but those that got left behind got shat on badly. Working with the old, the sick and the poor as me and my missis do you could see the damage happening. So some people experienced this adn saw it - others did not. it tends to colour your view somewhat
No point in arguing with you TJ, although I am somewhat relieved that you actually managed a post without mentioning oil 😉
I'll leave it now with a [url= http://libcom.org/history/1978-1979-winter-of-discontent ]LINKY[/url] for the OP to add a bit of perspective to show just how wonderfully the UK was governed under Labour pre-Thatcher.
TJ + a million. And Elfin was right - we're tired and this is as emotive a subject as anyone could bring up.
That said, my Grandad was at the forefront of promoting Scottish business during the 60s - 70s, culminating in the huge hydro-electric projects in the Scottish Highlands. Thatcher was instrumental in getting these enterprises up and running. These days, taking these developments as a seperate entity, she might be applauded for her forward thinking, environmentally aware attitude, not to mention the employment opportunities for the local communities.
Beyond all that, I've lived in the North East of England for eight years now and have worked with many of those for whom the miners' strikes were a reality, rather than something to yawn at on the news, or read a bit about in 'The Secret Diary of Adrian Mole'.
I have friends whose parents were arrested for cutting down telegraph poles to heat their houses.
She was a destructive force for the main part but had her eye on the bigger picture, at all and any cost. I am so not about to invoke Godwins' law and am off to bed also.
Personal experience is no substitute for extrapolating 'facts' from questionable sources to support an argument.
"Personal experience" ? What about all the "personal experiences" of people who don't agree with you ?
Wait a minute, I think I know this one.....they don't count. Am I right ? ..... just the opinions of those who were there [u]and[/u] liked Thatcher count ?
And what do you mean [i]"extrapolating 'facts' from questionable sources"[/i] ? Since when is the Office of National Statistics a "questionable source" ?
Oh wait a minute again, I think I also the answer to this one. The Office of National Statistics is a "questionable source" when you don't like the statistics - am I right ?
Here you go you drongo, a few more facts that you can dismiss 'cause they don't suit you. Growth per quarter before and after Thatcher.
1978 Q2 2
1978 Q3 0.9
1978 Q4 0.3
1979 Q1 -0.5
1979 Q2 3.9
1979 Q3 -1.3
1979 Q4 0.5
1980 Q1 -1
1980 Q2 -1.9
1980 Q3 -1.6
1980 Q4 -1.6
1981 Q1 0.5
1981 Q2 0.1
1981 Q3 1
1981 Q4 0.1
1982 Q1 0.6
1982 Q2 0.8
1982 Q3 0.6
1982 Q4 0.2
Interesting ernie. Your ego knows no bounds in that you assumed I was referring to growth, or facts and figures supplied by you.
Assumptions again and the irony of that statement is almost as amusing as your resorting to insults so early 😆Wait a minute, I think I know this one.....they don't count. Am I right ? ..... just the opinions of those who were there and liked Thatcher count ?
Your ego knows no bounds in that you assumed I was referring to growth, or facts and figures supplied by you.
😕 Nothing to do with ego - why would it ? Yes, I assumed you were 'referring to facts supplied by me'. Since you commented that I had allegedly [i]"extrapolating 'facts' from questionable sources".[/i]
Are you drunk, attempting to talk in riddles, or just a bit dim ?
I am not sure the manufacturing industry was in tip top shape before she got involved, TJ. You can't pretend that China would not have taken all our business regardless of whoever was in power. They have something we will never have - billions of very poor people.
Germany seems to do alright in this regard...
As ive said before i carnt wait till she,s dead , thanks to her the area i live became a police state during the pit strike and she let the met police get up to antics that has turned people to have no trust in the police force since.
I belive in time history will show her to have been a very poor PM she had short term fixes that have cause long term proplems for this country every since just like the tories are doing today.
Of course if you or your family were one of the very few who did well during her time then the fact that people are living in almost povity even when working full time if there lucky to have a job at all is a price worth paying as your alright.
hard drugs were almost unheard of.
Yes, TJ. It was the Conservative rule in the 80s that enabled the global drug trade. 🙄
thanks to her the area i live became a police state during the pit strike and she let the met police get up to antics that has turned people to have no trust in the police force since.
Not because of those undertaking illegal activity who required to be policed then?
Depraved reptilian scum - utterly devoid of humanity.
I will happily suspend my devout atheism so I can believe in the fires of hell being well and truly stoked when she goes
... and that's Thatcher summed up. She turns the most rationale of us into vitriol spouting ....
Radio 4 had a piece on the new yesterday am. Afterwards the presenters (I think Humphries & Naughtie) were saying that the thing with Thatcher was that the film, or even TV at the time, could not portray how "truly terrifying she was in person, up front and personal"
They're not exactly shrinking violets
The thing I remember most as a kid was taking tins of soup to give the firemen at our local station
We had next to nowt and yet more than these families who had be on strike for a year
I have lined up a bottle of red wine for the day she dies, I will stop what I'm doing. Go home and get blind drunk. Probably run around naked singing ding dong the witch is dead
I can't imagine what the pit communities suffered but I,ve met quite few people from those areas and their feeling in off universal hatred of that particular woman
Spiriting image should be you education on the matter
Too tall its a simple truth. In the 70s hard drug addiction was not the problem it became in the 80s. Poverty and social exclusion are strongly linked to heroin usage. there is no doubt that there was a massive rise in hard drug use during the thatcher years in parallel with the massive rise in poverty and social exclusion.
[url= http://toryreformgroup.tumblr.com/post/13201087129/paul-abbott-why-the-left-should-love-margaret-thatcher ]Here you go emsz[/url]
In an attempt to answer the question rather than score points.[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/explain-the-thatcher-thing-to-me/page/3#post-3233263 ]why not?[/url]
I don't doubt that the investment wasn't needed, but this is a question about why Thatcher is hated by some and loved by others.
I think you've answered the question in part by not listening to the question.
Why do I consider that way the water cos were privatised was not a good example, because the OFWAT had to be formed as was the other agency we hadn't needed previously, the DWI. People saw an opportunity to make money for themselves at the expense of others. The cost of water went up, operating profits went up.investment went down and quality was reduced until OFWAT had to introduce an element of self control.
East Anglia is a name that springs to mind.
The privatization of a company to raise money for investment is a good thing, provided it's managed properly.
Privatizing companies to make a lot of money for a few at the expense of many is quite simply wrong.
So Thatcher closed down coal mines and bought the coal from elsewhere which successfully stopped the coal miners from holding the country to ransom
True,
It's the Russians now
Not because of those undertaking illegal activity who required to be policed then?
Those undertaking perfectly legal practices such as protesting and picketing were "policed" as you put it. In the most brutal way.
I was having a "tidy up" at home a couple of months ago, and found a box of stuff from my student days...
In that box was a cartoon of Thatcher that I drew at the time (mid 80s). I'll post it up - If this thread hasn't been closed down by the time I can re- find and scan! Can't claim the cartoonography is up to much, but it works ok as a contemporaneous record of what people thought at the time (FWIW most folks I knew thought the cartoon was overly flattering)
Nice thread emsz..
Brought out the best in STW this one.
You will of course end up sitting on one side of the fence, but make informed choices yeah, not the sort of choice spouted in vitriolic fashion here.
And you can change your mind about her. I sat one side of the fence for a good few years, now I sit the other. I feel neither agerieved nor singled out, she did some good and some bad, but overall she changed the way politics is both viewd and used and modelled all over the WORLD
Those undertaking perfectly legal practices such as protesting and picketing were "policed" as you put it. In the most brutal way.
The miners were no real problem and usually had a good 'working relationship' with the police on the front line. The rent-a-crowd activists who really went to town caused the worst of the problems.
TJ - you, along with many others, refuse to see the 'Thatcher years' in context and look at the global picture as a whole. I am no apologist for any party, but isolating what you want to ensure your arguement remains strong undermines your perpetual arguements. Drugs increased in availability globally throughout the 70s and 80s and became a crutch instead of (or as well as) alcohol, the previous norm. You may link poverty in areas with political decisions of the time, but linking the spread of drugs is ridiculous if you ignore the global drug industry and its growth.