Some serious animosity between him and Dave.

It was Boris’s pig…

@tmh watch the video posted, a bit long perhaps but well worth it. I have not met a passionately Remain supporter, not one yourself included. The ones I’ve spoken to who are passionate are passionaltely against their perception of a Leave supporter rather than pro-EU

Cameron was always going to have a problem campaigning for Remain when he achieved so little in the negotiation, Boris is backed by over 50% of Tory MPs (think thats the number) and we can hardly call bim opportunistic when you have a life long euroskeptic like Corbyn campaigning for Remain. Gove is a bigger issue for Cameron than Boris.

rkk01 – Member
Is wide of the mark…
The Brits weren’t the last ones standing and a fairly minor role in fighting back (I know, we were part of D-Day and the Northern / Western European campaign, as well as the fight up through Italy)

Unless you consider Russia as one of them? Apart from Russia who were left standing? Bear in mind Russia was on the other side far far away.

It wasn’t even the Yanks, although they like to think otherwise.

Really? I mean really? Who then?

Again, unless you consider Russia as the saviour?

As for influence, my understanding is that by 1945, Roosevelt / Truman and Stalin had pretty much cut Churchill out of any say in how the post-war set up was going to look…

To certain extend but if Churchill was completely cut off then the red army would be at Calais like their previous counterpart. There were political maneuvering but ultimately Britain was still the staging post for the Yanks to counter the red army. As a result Britain still had a say in the matter but it did not help much because most of Europe were already backstabbing each other with lefties selling out or embracing the utopian of communism.

we can hardly call bim opportunistic

No, that’s exactly what we can call him (BJ) with his lies & u turns.

Particularly if you are going to call Corbyn opportunistic when’s he’s acted in a similar vein…..

🙄

The ones I’ve spoken to who are passionate are passionaltely against their perception of a Leave supporter rather than pro-EU

Given the vitriol and BS from leave it’s hard to get past just fact checking some of the wild claims.
From a leaflet that is full of holes, a campaign based on fear and a lot of exageration, comparisons to Hitler to really dredge the bottom of the barrel. Immigration scare stories and then your kind words to the guy not on a UK passport that he would be fine, but we only want to pick the best, but you will be fine. Throwing in that all Brits living abroard will be fine as they need us but we can kick out loads of EU’s from the UK?

Perhaps as the Scot Ref proved it’s easier to get fired up and passionate about leaving but sticking together requires a level head and work. Making videos isn’t making a case, being passionate isn’t enough. You need to give good factual reasons to make people go with you or change your mind.

So far all I’ve seen from remain is a lot of shouting and complaining about stuff and blaming the EU,

Unless you consider Russia as one of them? Apart from Russia who were left standing? Bear in mind Russia was on the other side far far away.

Russia paid a very bloody price in WW2 & that should not be taken lightly.

The vote Remain will Always have the upper-hand while the vote OUT will always be the underdog because of the fear people have for change.

Their mind sets are extremely hard to convince because of the entanglement they have in the system for such a long time. They don’t even know any other ways. They will forever be the captive voters to be told they have been exploited by the “capitalist and the rich” and should vote to “share the common good”.

As always they (generally speaking no hard facts) will only change when “Death comes knocking at the door”. (an expression common in the far east and that’s the nearest English expression I can think of – ??????? – forget translator you get wrong meaning)

mrlebowski – Member

Unless you consider Russia as one of them? Apart from Russia who were left standing? Bear in mind Russia was on the other side far far away.

Russia paid a very bloody price in WW2 & that should not be taken lightly. [/quote]

It is Russia then? Remember Stalin wanted to open second front but the West declined? If Russia was that strong they would have attacked by themselves but did not. The present of the West essentially split up the enemy force.

and chewkw, we used to cut limbs off when we had things we couldn’t cure. Now we look to fix the problems and keep the use of the limb.
Your phrase is similar to a lot of improvements mantras that it’s easier to change when the options are change or die/loose it all.
None of which makes sense if the change is the wrong way to go.

Most of us are waiting for some good hard facts, policies or statements to check we are voting the right way. Still not seeing any and waiting for my postal ballot.

mikewsmith – Member
and chewkw, we used to cut limbs off when we had things we couldn’t cure.

We still do.

Now we look to fix the problems and keep the use of the limb.

Okay, okay, you win no limbs cutting unnecessarily but there are still people without limbs you know (cut off due to medical reasons).

Your phrase is similar to a lot of improvements mantras that it’s easier to change when the options are change or die/loose it all.
None of which makes sense if the change is the wrong way to go.

No, no … arrghh … anyway I don’t know how to describe it.

Nevermind, I shall keep it simple … ‘Don’t leave it to the last minute coz it will hurt even more’. (Something like that. Not the right translation but good enough I guess)

Most of us are waiting for some good hard facts, policies or statements to check we are voting the right way. Still not seeing any and waiting for my postal ballot.

Nobody has the crystal ball. You can analyse as much as you want until the cows come home yet I bet you will still be unable to predict the future.

Remember no boom or burst? No global recession? (I think someone said that …) What happened? Global recession blah blah blah … I mean we have been studying them and with facts yet we are in the dark.

Nobody has the crystal ball.

Nope but as leave has so far…
Blamed EU rules – the UK had similar rules and in a vast majority it was stuff the UK wanted to implement
Blamed Schengen for letting terrorists born in Paris attack Paris and the same in Brussels.
Vastly exaggerate the economic impact of immigration and the general numbers
Make claims about sovereignty that are not true and claims about what the future of the EU/UK is despite the UK having a veto on further integration/union/currency

For a rational thinker predictions become a lot less valid if you base them on fiction regardless of what your balls are made of.

mikewsmith – Member

Nobody has the crystal ball.

Nope but as leave has so far..[/quote]
Good answer that so we are in a stalemate because my answer would be nope because Vote IN has been much more vocal with “heavy weight crystal ball” predictions and endorsements than OUT. Nope, they are NOT more correct or accurate but they just have “rounded crystal ball”.

For a rational thinker predictions become a lot less valid if you base them on fiction regardless of what your balls are made of.

Rational thinker as in “programmed” & “systematic” thinker? The definition I learned of about rational thinkers are their inability to consider the alternatives or to deal with the unknown. However, if all variables remain the same then the rational approach would be the best way forward. I do not mean going ape shite if the variables are not the same. What I mean is if the variables cannot be predicted the rational approach will find it difficult to comprehend. (there is also another argument and a famous one that we are Not rational, we think we are but we are not but that’s for another story)

I don’t know about you but is the “boom” and burst (more like burst) getting longer and harder to get out of each time it happened? (are we out now?)

What I mean is if the variables cannot be predicted the rational approach will find it difficult to comprehend. (there is also another argument and a famous one that we are Not rational, we think we are but we are not but that’s for another story)

Taking the definitions of thinking types away.
Assessing the evidence
Understanding the Gaps
Evaluating the options.

As Rumsfeld said

There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don’t know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don’t know we don’t know.

Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/d/donaldrums148142.html

In this context there is a lot of know, history, written agreements, data and facts. We also know what we don’t know – future
The bit that hurts you is the Unknown Unkowns, you can make these known by thinking and research and asking questions or you can stick your fingers in your ears.
Things like immigration – what will happen to all the EU national in the UK as a result of an Exit?
What will happen to all the UK nationals in the EU?
Ignoring these or just assuming it will all be fine keeps them as unknown unkowns.

But as said when the Leave campaign keeps getting picked up for serious exaggeration, making stuff up and misrepresentation of history/treaties etc. what hope do they have at going forward. Especially if leaving doesn’t fix all the things they are angry about.

mikewsmith – Member
Taking the definitions of thinking types away.
Assessing the evidence
Understanding the Gaps
Evaluating the options.

Two things will happen that will cause problems to the above.

1. Information limitation.
2. Information overload.

I am not suggesting you should abandon your rationality but all I can say is sometime things need to happen out of the ordinary.

As Rumsfeld said

Nice quote. Is that from Donald Rumsfeld?
I think I read that quote long before he was in the govt.

In this context there is a lot of know, history, written agreements, data and facts. We also know what we don’t know – future
The bit that hurts you is the Unknown Unkowns, you can make these known by thinking and research and asking questions or you can stick your fingers in your ears.

I am not making this up but I was going to post something about “research” earlier but thought it might be too much for others. Anyhoo, one of me mates (an old guy doing some research to earn a living) used to tell me that “we are still researching the past and not the future”. Not my words … his and he is a superdoper Prof or Dr type academic geek I kid you not. Yes, he was referring to the Unknown Unknowns if I understand him correctly.

I am not paid that much to find the answer to be honest so I would take the leap of faith (not that type of religious faith) to move forward.

hings like immigration – what will happen to all the EU national in the UK as a result of an Exit?

Law abiding no problem. Just queue up for work permit/visa/residential permit etc.

What will happen to all the UK nationals in the EU?

They are all going to jail! Jail them Brits! No, no just kidding. Seriously just follow the rules of other nations.

Ignoring these or just assuming it will all be fine keeps them as unknown unkowns.

Nobody is asking you to ignore them but be prepared and be adaptable.

But as said when the Leave campaign keeps getting picked up for serious exaggeration, making stuff up and misrepresentation of history/treaties etc. what hope do they have at going forward. Especially if leaving doesn’t fix all the things they are angry about.

I do not think that is the case. i.e. exaggeration or making things up.
Perhaps you should think of them as alternative interpretations.
I doubt there is anyone that can fix the world problem or even national problem. (Even “God(s)/almighty whoever” (my assumption) is not fixing it for us, our mess so we have to fix it ourselves)
No country in this world has no problem. Fact!

Law abiding no problem. Just queue up for work permit/visa/residential permit etc.

IS that the official position? What if you don’t qualify? What will the rules be? Quota? Again the Boston Globe mock front page

Seriously just follow the rules of other nations.

So basically no rights to live in the country they are in, bit of a risk isn’t it.
There is no official position on these things

I do not think that is the case. i.e. exaggeration or making things up.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36014941
and that is before we get a collection of BoJo and Jambyfacts

Especially if leaving doesn’t fix all the things they are angry about.[/quote]

I doubt there is anyone that can fix the world problem or even national problem

I’ll rephrase, the problems that they* blame the EU for and claim the UK would be much better at after leaving.
*As proven a great number are not due to the EU, or things the UK voted along with or stuff that leaving wouldn’t change.

Remainista, in, I won’t listen, my mind is closed, my view, institutionalised, shocker!
Stay classy

No, I do listen but I’ve not gone out my way to look for silly videos.

@tmh watch the video posted, a bit long perhaps but well worth it. I have not met a passionately Remain supporter, not one yourself included. The ones I’ve spoken to who are passionate are passionaltely against their perception of a Leave supporter rather than pro-EU

I am sorry but life is too short*, If I want a good Leave argument (one if the few) I will refer to the Neil Woodford/Roger Bootle work (Woodford and Capital Economics together). It is considered and well written. Bootle again writes well on the OUT behalf in this morning’s Torygraph.

Enough faux passion and BS. He rationally concludes

Even though I believe that we should leave, I concede that there are some good arguments for remaining in the EU

To which I would reply… Even though I believe that we should stay, I concede that there are some good arguments for exiting the Eu. The problem is that these are not central to the debate. Instead we get vitriole, misinformation and xenophobic BS and the patronising twaddle of a fool. It’s politics at its lowest level. The so-called “passion” reminds me of an arrogant pre-pubescent kid in a school debate who thinks he is clever but is actually just embarrassing – yes Michael you do spring to mind!!

* and I even read Scotland’s Future from cover to cover to try to find a sensible debate, so normally prepared to suffer in the interests of understanding an issue 😉

Nothing’s changed my mind, just waiting for the card thingy so I can go vote IN.

I see this debate is going as expected

Ex London mayors just love comparing everyone to the Nazis
Which one is supposed to be project fear?

As for that video, when the opening line is basically just lies, who on earth would be silly enough to watch the rest?

and we can hardly call bim opportunistic when you have a life long euroskeptic like Corbyn campaigning for Remain

I think you will find that the logical conclusion to that is that you can call them both opportunistic. No matter what Corbyn does it has no bearing on whether or not BO Jo is opportunistic – WTF are you doing typing that ludicrous non sequitur?

Please stop doing this we all know you hate Corbyn but you are starting to look like a loon the way you answer every claim with a reference to Corbyn.
This has made you look unprincipled, opportunistic and irrational

Bo jo has entirely reversed his view simply to become PM

As for that video, when the opening line is basically just lies, who on earth would be silly enough to watch the rest?

I’m not sure it is just lies – the non-democratic nature of the EU has been laid bare by the Greece fiasco, and while BoJo’s anti-semitic ramblings are frothier than a million Starbucks cappucinos, there is an element of truth in the notion that EU institutions are not accountable to the people. Whether the UK leaving will change anything either here or there is another matter.

This article is a quick summary of some of the issues:

The Great Putsch: welcome to post-democratic Europe

there is an element of truth in the notion that EU institutions are not accountable to the people.

Did you vote for the BBC head OFstead, Prisons, Heck even the Bank of England

All countries do the same unelected bureaucrats and the “real” issue is that they are not “our” unelected unaccountable bureaucrats

Whilst we have the lord’s and the Queen we cannot lecture anyone on democratic accountability.

from your link

The Great Putsch

That is the title – i assume to make sure we get the germans as Nazis [Hitlers beer hall Putsch] link straight away

With that I was out as I assumed it summed up the tone of what was to follow

With that I was out as I assumed it summed up the tone of what was to follow

That’s a shame, as it would have answered the questions that you posed above. The issue is not whether we elect the chairman of the BoE or ECB, it is whether that unelected person then has the right to behave in a political manner to influence elected leaders.

Here is another discussion of the same issue with a title more to your liking:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/2011/nov/08/euro-papandreou-berlusconi-bailout-debt
also here:
http://www.aworldtowin.net/blog/bond-dealers-put-price-on-democracy.html

The vote Remain will Always have the upper-hand while the vote OUT will always be the underdog because of the fear people have for change.

Their mind sets are extremely hard to convince because of the entanglement they have in the system for such a long time. They don’t even know any other ways.

That’s just pure projection of how YOU see them – the truth I suspect, certainly for me, is very different.

It’s a very simple case of weighing up the pro’s/cons/establishing the FACTS & making a decision.

Fear of change? How patronising….

Why would you not wish to have 100% control of your own country and its interests ? I found Obama’s speech encouraging us to stay in the EU to be both insulting and hypocritical. He would never allow the US to enter into a similar arrangement with Mexico etc.
OUT for me.

thebees – Member
Why would you not wish to have 100% control of your own country and its interests ?

Because we can trade certain things for a better collective bargain, why would anyone trade their absolute freedom to live in a country?

What control have the EU taken from the UK… make sure they are real reasons

without the support of the EU to back us up and bail us out from the mess that the succession of self serving, snivelling little public schoolboy governments has left us in financially, we will become a third world country within a decade..

See Greece?
The giant abyss that we are blithely teetering on the edge of whilst arrogantly still considering ourselves to be a great nation (I’ve got news for you, the rest of the world thinks we’re a laughing stock) is a deeper and darker hole than anything our proud little moronic minds can imagine..
We have absolutely nothing to offer the world! Zero.. Nada.. Zilch

What have we got that we can export? Only one thing.. Tossers, millions of ’em

Stay in or get ready to fight each other to the death for resources..
The brexit lot consist of neanderthals and those rich and powerful enough to jump ship with all the loot when it all goes to hell..

even Cameron and his cronies haven’t got the stomach for that kind of criminality

Most sensible people are keeping their heads down waiting for the moment to exercise their democratic right with dignity and poise.

Very true. If you think we should play our part in the EU, then you learnt years ago not to engage with people who think we should be outside it. Not because it is not possible to cogently argue why and how the UK could thrive outside the EU, because it is, but because so many people who seek to argue that case turn out to be horrible small minded people who just go off on tangents blaming immigration for all the failings of our own governments and society.

calm down yunki

just sayin’ 🙂

Why would you not wish to have 100% control of your own country and its interests ?

😆

Yunki, wow is that really going to happen? Thanks for the warning !

ignore it at your own risk.. don’t come crying to me when you’re eating your granny whilst fighting off the neighbours with her wooden leg

ignore it at your own risk.. don’t come crying to me when you’re eating your granny whilst fighting off the neighbours with her wooden leg

If you haven’t already burnt it for fuel!

Anyway – more on EU democracy:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2011/11/europes-hit-squad/

mt – Member

calm down yunki

Well nobody can say there’s no passionate Remainers at least

Well it’s alright endlessly arguing about trade agreements, but when we have absolutely nothing to trade it’s a bit of a moot point

Dp weirdness

Here is another discussion of the same issue with a title more to your liking

😀
I like your style

Bit busy but I will get them read – not sarcasm

mikewsmith – Member

Law abiding no problem. Just queue up for work permit/visa/residential permit etc.

IS that the official position? What if you don’t qualify? What will the rules be? Quota? Again the Boston Globe mock front page[/quote]
Why is it so hard to consider following rules? Stick to the rules.

So basically no rights to live in the country they are in, bit of a risk isn’t it.
There is no official position on these things

Yes, just like you have no rights to live in their country but then you don’t want to live in theirs.

Especially if leaving doesn’t fix all the things they are angry about.

You expect a magic to happen? I thought you are advocating rationality? It will have to start slowly.

I’ll rephrase, the problems that they* blame the EU for and claim the UK would be much better at after leaving.

Yes, leaving gives us the rights to deal with the problem directly in accordance to how we see fit.

*As proven a great number are not due to the EU, or things the UK voted along with or stuff that leaving wouldn’t change.

I am sorry but I just do not feel it is in my best interest or for UK to be in EU politically. Economically UK will still prosper as normal when Out or even better.

yunki – Member
without the support of the EU to back us up and bail us out from the mess that the succession of self serving, snivelling little public schoolboy governments has left us in financially, we will become a third world country within a decade..

Bloody hell you lot really have deep seeded hate for the class system isn’t it. You blame everything on the product of the public school at every opportunity. Get in! (actually I think you should move on rather than hang on to your old class thinking) The class system is still very much alive.

See Greece?

See no similarity? Are you saying UK is as corrupt as Greece?

Stay in or get ready to fight each other to the death for resources..
The brexit lot consist of neanderthals and those rich and powerful enough to jump ship with all the loot when it all goes to hell..

You are already fighting for resources so what is new?
It is your misconception that all brexit are rich and powerful coz they are not. Well, at least I am not.
Neanderthals went extinct because they did not adopt to change quick enough. At least that is one line of the story or being breed out.

even Cameron and his cronies haven’t got the stomach for that kind of criminality

I think you should refer to all the political class regardless of affiliation. They are your overlords!

Drac,

I see no problem in the North Korean leadership after all they have not begged the west for food nor claim benefits from them.

Remember it is also the West or “democratic countries” that wants to starve them to death by applying “castle siege” strategy via embargo etc … I think you might need a better example.

Or do you prefer the action of a cool dude? Is the act of dropping a mic cool now? Cool? Legend? Merican national or world treasure? I think all leaders should have a parting gesture from now on coz it’s cool.

don’t turn it into a comment on the class system chewkw.. that’s a cheap politicians trick

it’s about the big elephant in the room which is that as a nation we have absolutely zero to bring to the table..

there is not one product or service that we supply that someone else in the world can’t produce much better and much cheaper..

beggars can’t be choosers

@yunki if you don’t mind me saying you are a classic Remain voter, you are fervently anti-Tory and believe the best way to express your political point of view is having Brussels run our country. Youth unemployment is running at 25% in Europe, the French Predient is bypassing Parliament to personally push through Labour reforms as employers won’t hire kids as its too expensive to fire them if they turn out to be no good. Queue riots attacking the Socilaist Party offices. The writing is onnthe wall to compete with the rest of the world we need more a flexible and better qualified workforce. Unskilled work is a dangerous place to be.

Uncontrolled immigration from an ever expanding list of poor EU countries is going to drive wages and working conditions down in the UK pushing more and more jobs down to minimum wage. How on earth is that good for working people ?

I am genuinely sad at your negative view of our country. Its not one I share or recognise, Your view is exactly what Leave say is a Remain voter with no belief in our wonderful nation

Greece is indeed a terrible mess, it will be the largest default in history (not bad for a tiny country of just 11 million) and we will be required to be part of the bailout putting in many billions which could be better spent on our priorities.