EU Referendum – are you in or out?

Armageddon isn’t really going to happen though, is it? It’s just the political situation that’s changing, hardly like it’s anything that really matters…

Seriously? 8O

:lol:

Well played photographer person. Well played.

Yip, youse are arguing that brexit in what ever form it takes is a bad thing. Before the vote. A reasonable stance, yes, that’s politics. post vote, nah its spitting the dummy. A ridiculous situation given that the is no appetite from any main party to go against the vote. So it’s happening, you either get on with letting other determine the outcome or you take part. Screaming we’re heading for a black hole does no one any good. Particularly when it’s clear bullshit. Life goes on regardless of politics.

So it’s happening, you either get on with letting other determine the outcome or you take part. Screaming we’re heading for a black hole does no one any good.

Criticism is useful in keeping everyone honest and in check.

That’s why we have an opposition sat in the Commons. We don’t just say “Right you lot won, we’ll shut up and give you free reign to do anything you like without comment until the next general election”

That’s democracy.

Besides, how would you like me to “take part” exactly? What should I be doing that I’m not already?

Who’s arguing to give free reign? I’m not.

You’re telling us to stop criticising the government’s position on Brexit.

How is that not asking for a free reign?

Would it really be better if we doffed our hats and cheered on Mrs May and her Brave Brexiteers?

Because pure criticism is pointless. I think the transferring EU law in to UK law is interesting, it throws a lot of things in to the long grass, to be fought on an issue by issue basis, so rather the criticise and scream dooooooooom. Maybe look at that as an operchancity. Which is what it is. The Tories in this term won’t be able to do it all. Rough framework is where their influence with last I reckon. Why I suspect the likes of corbyn never really supoorted the in vote. He could see the long term gains that could be had with an out vote.

Tbh about all I’ve got to add. Still forming my own opinions at the moment.

Because pure criticism is pointless

No it isn’t – it highlights failings or flaws that otherwise might be missed (deliberately or otherwise).

I think the transferring EU law in to UK law is interesting

Me too. And if you look back a bit you’ll see I called that approach “fine and sensible” but highlighted my concern that it also includes “powers for ministers to make some changes [to those laws] by secondary legislation, which is not voted on by the Commons in the same way a piece of primary legislation would be.”

See? Support and criticism.

A ridiculous situation given that the is no appetite from any main party to go against the vote

Who knows where we will be in 2 years time, if it looks like a hard Brexit is on the cards, especially if Fox and Davies find reality much harder than their fantastic demands.

75% of Mays cabinet were remainers, the Tory party committed in their manifesto to keep single market access.
Entry party is divided on the issue and how to deal with it

I’m still (naively ?) hopeful, for the sake of my kids, that the whole silly thing will be called off.

Would add one other thing and that’s criticism of the Scottish nationalist approach that EU = wonderful and that an IS should automatically enter it is a mile off. From the fact that it’s a clear political tactic, that’s pretty disengenuous. And the EU will be a different proposition minus the UK. I’d favour a wait and see approach to be honest post IS. I think alot of people would feel the same and they’d lose a ref predicated on it.

I reckon Scottish public opinion on the eu is much more nuanced than it has been presented in the media. I certainly voted remain as the least worst option. So you could be right about hanging an indy referendum campaign solely on the result of an eu referendum campaign where neither side convinced the public. There are too many unknowns at the moment but as brexit effects start to bite things can change rapidly either way. For example loss of access to Scottish waters will be a problem for Spanish fishermen, and therefore for the Spanish government.

Besides, how would you like me to “take part” exactly? What should I be doing that I’m not already?

Yep IMHO most people are pretty much passengers on this bus :-(

This has stumped me as well.. Other than a bit of patriotic flag waving I can’t think how I can actually help other than paying more taxes in the future and higher prices for everything imported.

There are too many unknowns at the moment but as brexit effects start to bite things can change rapidly either way. For example loss of access to Scottish waters will be a problem for Spanish fishermen, and therefore for the Spanish government.

and i seem to remember that a huge proportion of Scottish fishing exports go to Spain. So who looses. There is of course the minor issue that the UK has cut back everything so far that they would be unable to prevent illegal fishing in territorial waters.

Doesn’t it still need to pass vote in parliament, as the referendum was just and advisory indicator? I thought there was also some kind of legal challenge that the referendum was based on pure lies, is that still happening?

Maybe I’m clutching at straws.

The thing that I find really unbelievable is the belief that, because we are such a large market to Europe it is against their own interests to enforce trade levies upon us. This belief would be true if we were able to buy from elsewhere: We import most of our food from Europe and will have no choice but to pay whatever we are to be charged for it. Are we all going to live on potatoes and cabbages grown in the Fens and picked by the longterm unemployed or something?

mattyfez – Member
Doesn’t it still need to pass vote in parliament, as the referendum was just and advisory indicator? I thought there was also some kind of legal challenge that the referendum was based on pure lies, is that still happening?

Maybe I’m clutching at straws.

It is legal. Nothing to challenge in parliament.

Perfectly legal, just like Bush and Blair going into Iraq to protect the world from Saddam’s WMDs :roll:

It is legal. Nothing to challenge in parliament.

The referendum was legal, yes, but given that referendums are basically really opinion polls, it was based on an internal Tory power struggle and a complete farce, that must call into question the legitimacy of it all.

But do parliament still need to vote in favour of leave to rubber stamp it?

So Jamba looking forward to be being evicted from France? I am sure Le Pen would take issue with foreigners stealing french jobs?

I bring my money earnt and taxed in the UK and spend it in France. Le Penn/Sarkozy and Hollande love that. I don’t work there.

@igm you maybe onto something ;) Also had to chuckle at the blacklist, reminds me of the “don’t tell ’em Pike” Dad’s Army sketch. I manage money for international clients inc pension funds, very few in UK or Europe. Mostly US (individuals, pension, university endowment) or Middle Eastern/Asian (eg SWF)

cchris renting out your UK house is an interesting one, £/€ down 10% but relative property price appreciation and corresponding increase in rents (vs French 3 yr lease system) means it could still be best bet. Plus risk of eurozone implosion means a UK property might still be a good bet. Complicated. Your UK pension like mine will be subject to any future legislation but I can’t see a scenario where you wouldn’t get it as you’ve made 20 years of contributions.

As for hoping Brexit won’t happen that’s forlorn imo, Corbyn is for Brexit so Labour wouldn’t vote against, Tories will fall into line (just as many did campaigning for Remain). The repeal bill will be passed easily and A50 doesn’t need a vote The legal challenge is a good earner for lawyers but pointless, can’t succeed.

@kimbers I am for Leave as imo it gives the greater opportunity for my kids vs Remain

As for hoping Brexit won’t happen that’s forlorn imo, Corbyn is for Brexit so Labour wouldn’t vote against, Tories will fall into line (just as many did campaigning for Remain). The repeal bill will be passed easily and A50 doesn’t need a vote The legal challenge is a good earner for lawyers but pointless, can’t succeed.

The realisation that the Brexit you all had such a hard-on for might just be slipping out of grasp. So close! but now you’re realising it just might not happen after all. Must be tough for you :(

We import most of our food from Europe and will have no choice but to pay whatever we are to be charged for it.

@chicken we buy from the EU as it puts punative tariffs on food from outside in oreder to protect the French/Spanish etc. Once those are gone we can buy cheaper elsewhere. There was an example from the Referendum where the Germans are huge exporters of coffee but obviously grow zero. This is because EU import tariffs are low for coffee beans but very high for processed coffee. Thus African growers have to sell raw beans rather than being able to do the value added roasting etc and sell the finished product for a higher profit. Pure protectionism from the EU

@jamby, your kids already did well out of being in the EU, were able to go on ERASMUS exchange etc
EU passport meant they could move and work visa free accross Europe, with free healthcare etc

now denied to my kids

cheers

The realisation that the Brexit you all had such a hard-on for might just be slipping out of grasp. So close! but now you’re realising it just might not happen after all. Must be tough for yo

Fourbanger we seem to be living in parallel universes ? :) Everything these last few weeks and especially in Birmingham this week has been 100% in Leave’s favour.

Rather than post on the May thread if anyone didn’t see her Andrew Marr interview it was pretty thorough. It’s on iPlayer

mattyfez – Member
The referendum was legal, yes, but given that referendums are basically really opinion polls, it was based on an internal Tory power struggle and a complete farce, that must call into question the legitimacy of it all.

But do parliament still need to vote in favour of leave to rubber stamp it?
It does not matter what happens in the party, i.e. no matter which party is in charged, because the people have voted / spoken and whoever is in charged must follow the will of the people. Not even the parliament can say no to the people. Yes, rubber stamp is just the formality.

Everything these last few weeks and especially in Birmingham this week has been 100% in Leave’s favour.

I guess you just see what you want to see.

It does not matter what happens in the party, i.e. no matter which party is in charged, because the people have voted / spoken and whoever is in charged must follow the will of the people. Not even the parliament can say no to the people.

Based on X Factor case law?

Our participation in Erasmus will continue, I have no doubt. Admittedly I could be totally wrong but I just don’t see it on this issue. Appreciate my eldest working in Barcelona was stress free with freedom of movement but again I expect a visa/exchange system with Europe, it makes sense both ways. English is the business language of the world, why would Europeans want restrict their ability to learn it in an open and welcoming country that’s far easier to access than say US, Canada or Australia.

fourbanger – Member

It does not matter what happens in the party, i.e. no matter which party is in charged, because the people have voted / spoken and whoever is in charged must follow the will of the people. Not even the parliament can say no to the people.

Based on X Factor case law? [/quote] We set the precedent of democracy. What do you want? Destroy democracy?

we are definetly keeping the uk house , it is a good investment . we could sell it , buy a smaller uk property and be mortgage free and get a higher renting income . But we want to keep a big house .

i beleive the south east will be fairly unaffected by brexit . the rest of the uk will pay a much higher price .

So brexit means setting up our own trading agreements like TTIP or the WTO which means not being completely “sovereign”. The Geneva convention covers most immigration that is sensationalised such as the jungle camp in Calais. So what is the difference and why should the U.K. get a better deal than the EU in new trading agreements.

So Jamba, you’re telling me our food needs can be shipped here from across the world’s oceans in the quantities we need, at a price comparable to what we pay now? Are you one of those who believe Africa should be growing food for the rest of the world rather than feed itself? Isn’t China buying up most of the arable land in Africa as we speak? If only our forward thinking country had done the same then I wouldn’t be worrying myself about spiralling food bills. Shame about all the starving Africans mind….

an open and welcoming country

You really think EU citizens are going to feel welcome? SERIOUSLY?

We could hardly do a less welcoming thing that hard Brexit, could we?

Our participation in Erasmus will continue, I have no doubt. — with freedom of movement but again I expect a visa/exchange system with Europe,

The EU booted switzerland from ERASMUS when they tried to block free movement as well as being denied ERC and Horizon2020 funding grants, even sadder they no longer sit on the awarding bodies for these huge multi billion£ reserach grants that help shape science in Europe

That is a depressing future for British scientists who up until the referendum had huge influence in EU science projects (the doors have shut already, in many cases, EU scientists wont gamble on joint funding applications fr future grants) :-(

We set the precedent of democracy. What do you want? Destroy democracy?

This is not democracy, the whole thing is based at best on ignorance, but most likely on lies. If the public vote on a referendum that is deliberately and obviously crazy because the extent of understanding is limited by tabloid headlines, and we all know who controls that.. It’s an absurd situation.

I have family in spain, and I’m half tempted to leave the UK, most spanish people I’ve spoken to are completely perplexed about the result of the UK referendum, and so am I.

I’m a white british citizen by the way. My granddad died in WWII etc.

@chicken we buy from the EU as it puts punative tariffs on food from outside in oreder to protect the French/Spanish etc. Once those are gone we can buy cheaper elsewhere

Have you forgotten the earlier conversation about lambs already? That was a nice case demonstrating how our sheep farmers, who export lamb/sheep meat across the EU, hugely benefit from the protectionism of those “punitive tariffs”.

What do you want? Destroy democracy?

I accept the result but I do hate this particular line of nonsense.
A true democracy wouldn’t disregard the opinion of 48% of voters would it?

A true democracy wouldn’t disregard the opinion of 48% of voters would it?

Given a binary choice, yes. It’s not that hard to grasp.

Ochlocracy

mattyfez – Member
This is not democracy, the whole thing is based at best on ignorance, but most likely on lies. If the public vote on a referendum that is deliberately and obviously crazy because the extent of understanding is limited by tabloid headlines, and we all know who controls that.. It’s an absurd situation.

Individual opinions are just opinions and we all have 1001 opinions good or bad but the public have voted so that’s that. It feels unreal but it is very real.

I have family in spain, and I’m half tempted to leave the UK, most spanish people I’ve spoken to are completely perplexed about the result of the UK referendum, and so am I.

Unfortunately we cannot live for others nor them for us.

I’m a white british citizen by the way.

Nothing to do with who or what we are because the people have voted. The outcome of the vote must be respected.

GrahamS – Member
Ochlocracy

Unlikely. You are more likely to find that in developing countries. British are too civilised to do that.

@mrmo can’t disagree with you. Yet fishermen were reckoned to be one of the stronger leave voting groups in Scotland

I’ll just put this here