The only party facilitating brexit, and a no deal one at that, are the Libdems

How so, Daz? The Lib Dems policy is Remain, simple as.

They and the people who supported them won’t be forgiven.

You and your mates give ’em a good kickin’, big man.

That’ll lurn ’em, the bourgeois b—.

The Lib Dems policy is Remain, simple as.

With the massive caveat that it’s not Corbyn at the helm when it happens. Their actions in the past day or two have clearly demonstrated that they would prefer Johnson and his no deal to Corbyn being PM, even if it’s just for a few weeks. That’s not a policy of remain, it’s a policy of no Corbyn, even if it means a no deal brexit.

You and your mates give ’em a good kickin’, big man.

WTF are you talking about?

I thnk we can all agree Swinson has made a massive blunder and her actions can easily be seen as she would prefer a tory government with brexit to a labur government with a second ref. And remember – Labour policy is a second ref under ALL circumstances – and labour are the only party to deal with this with nuance ie that the path taken depends on the circumstances. Everyone else is trying to pretend there are easy answers to difficult questions

As for them getting a kicking – my prediction is the lib dems end up with single figure MPs after the next election and are the 5th largest party. When your USP is that you have principles and honesty and your actions show this not to be true then you lose a lot.

Their actions in the past day or two have clearly demonstrated that they would prefer Johnson and his no deal to anyone other than Corbyn being PM, even if it’s just for a few weeks.

Labour front bench?

Actually, not heard from Starmer or any of the other less pliable members of the Shadow Cabinet recently… so unfair to taint them all with that accusation. But the tame ones popped up all over the place to destroy any idea of a cross party government on behalf of their leader (he wouldn’t get dirty doing it himself of course).

Labour Astroturfers?

As someone who voted Labour in 2017, and now hope to again in a general election as soon as possible… watching “Labour supporters” popping up everywhere with the same attack lines on Lucas, Swinson or Labour MPs, when they make any statement about the way ahead that suggests that others should or could be at the helm of a temporary government, has been utterly nauseating.

WTF are you talking about?

The fantasy nonsense you’re posting, Dazh. All this Lib Dem policy is in your head.

Find me a Youtube, policy staement or anything at all where Corby states clearly he is in favour of remain and will pull Art.50 ASAP. The policy of a second referendum is laudable but too late. There’s no way he can get into power and organise a referendum before 30/10. An you know what happens on 3/10 unless the EU 27 agree another extension.

Remember what Macron said when the last extension was given – “use the time wisely”. The mood is changing in Europe. I’m here, I’ve been discussing with french, German and Spanish people, the mood is that Britain is being unreasonable and the EU should be very firm, May’s deal was too generous to Britain and perhaps the best deal for the EU is no deal and sort it out after. It only takes one EU leader to adopt that view.

Time will run out while people are bickering and promising a second referendum Brexit will happen.

Corbyn should have vehemently opposed Art. 50 and then campaigned for its withdrawal. He still hasn’t and isn’t . He’s failing Labour voters because that’s what they want according to polls. He is failing the working classes and union members he is there to represent. Becuase he’s never done an honest days work in his life, never been poor or in need of anything, and hasn’t got clue how the world works.

when they make any statement about the way ahead that suggests that others should or could be at the helm of a temporary government, has been utterly nauseating.

Of course whereas watching “Former Labour supporters” popping up everywhere with hilarious comments about magic grandpa is superb for the digestion.
Its really odd how some feel its fine to launch attack after attack but then if the favour is return whine.

The only party facilitating brexit, and a no deal one at that, are the Libdems

I think that shows a lack of experience on the part of Jo Swinson rather than any principled stance of the Libdems. I think she thought everyone else would have the same view as her, and has been surprised, hence the sharp rowing back from her earlier position

I think part of the problem for a lot of folk on this thread is you think that the parties have a some sort of plan or idea about what they’re doing, while they are in fact, just making it up as they go along in the hope that it will work out well for them in the longer run. It might be the single most important thing to have happened in their lifetime, but it’s still the same Westminster greasy pole. And you’d be foolish to loose sight of that in all the excitement

Lib Dem policy looks clear to me:

https://www.libdemvoice.org/revokearticle50-is-now-lib-dem-policy-60302.html

That’s all the Brexit planning they need. Not much planning needed to maintain the staus quo.

So what do we think about Ken Clarke leading a government of national unity, then?

Sounds like a bloody good idea to me. If anything, just to see the look on all the ERG headbangers faces. They’ll be absolutely ****ing apoplectic.

He’s been a consistent PITA to them for years 😀

Just to go back a page to “who to lead a unity government”, its a shame Mark Carney has committed to the BoE until January, no?

There won’t be a government of national unity. The last time we had one was WW2 at a time of existential crisis. What we’re talking about here is unifying Remain, which if opinion polls are to be believed, is just over half the population. “Government of national division” would be more accurate.

Lib Dem policy looks clear to me:

Yeah the problem is they missed the “terms and conditions apply. We withhold the right to decide a hard brexit is fine in order to annoy Corbyn or, more importantly, his idea that we should have an election since whilst libdems overall might do well a few key current MPs are in a bit of a dodgy spot”.

What Edukator said.

What nickc said.

Most of all this cluckerfust is plain old incompetence and greed and stupidity, not conspiracy and plotting.

Theres 2 problems with Corbyn as caretaker PM

Among renainers (and leavers). He’s just not trusted on Brexit, his stance on Brexit has not been clear (he still won’t say if he’d back remain ina 2nd ref), you need a flow chart to figure out what labour want regards Brexit that doesn’t translate into votes in a polling booth or the division lobby.

2nd problem is that for it to work & block no deal Brexit caretaker PM has to be someone Tory rebels will vote for, the labour brexiteers won’t vote for it regardless so it’s dependent on Tory moderates, even Hammond won’t vote for corbyn.

Labour know all this, is it a trap for Swinson & an effort to claw back the votes they’ve lost to the Lads rather than a genuine effort to stop no deal Brexit ?

It’s still all a mess & no deal seems by far the likeliest outcome.

My sentiments exactly Kimbers. The way they’ve gone about it is so totally non-comital, half-arsed and throwaway that you can tell that they were never remotely serious about it.

SQUIRREL!!

It’s just about distraction, and making it look like you’re doing something, then blame-storming for the upcoming catastrophe. He’s roping the Lib Dems in now

It’s just more of the same from within the bunker. Corbyn wants Brexit, but he doesn’t want his fingerprints on it.

It’s so transparent. His fingerprints are all over Brexit though

Its just more of the same from within the bunker. Corbyn wants Brexit, but he doesn’t want his fngerprints on it.

Morning comrade!

How’s the revolution coming on?

Anyone who thinks that “Corbyn wants Brexit” is just conspiracy theory nonsense, or that those that can see this are akin to “flat earthers”, is ignoring all the evidence. I’m glad that Labour policy is finally to offer a referendum with a Remain option in all circumstances… but Corbyn still wants his chance to deliver Brexit… don’t lose sight of that… he’s managed to keep that as Labour policy… and if it happens without him getting his chance to be the one to deliver it… while most of the Labour movement will be gutted… no one really believes he would be… do they? That really wouldn’t fit it with his lifetime of work, would it.

Morning comrade!

How’s the revolution coming on?

How does the Swinson Kool Aid taste? Are you happy you got in to bed with the yellow tories, who’ve betrayed your wishes at the first opportunity?

It’s so transparent. His fingerprints are all over Brexit though

I was wondering how long it would take you to recover.
Is there any scenario where you wouldnt completely blame Corbyn? I suspect if he resigned today you would claim it is a cunning plan to confuse things.

2nd problem is that for it to work & block no deal Brexit caretaker PM has to be someone Tory rebels will vote for

It comes back to a simple question. If a no deal brexit is as catastrophic and unthinkable as the moderate tories and libdems say it is, then they should put aside party politics and do whatever it takes to stop it. Corbyn’s plan is the simplest, most direct and quickest way to do that. So do they want to avoid no deal or not? Labour have tabled a plan which will work, all it needs is the tories and libdems to act in the national interest.

The issue Corbyn has is he isn’t a very good leader; therfore the competing factions within the labour party who want opposing brexit outcomes get too much aritime/influnece so the public don’t see a coherant labour policy. Wheter or not Corbyn wants or doesnt want Brexit is a mute point; we are likely going to be going into a general election soon with large swathes of the popualtion unclear on, and untrsting in labours position.

In other news, does anyone find it amusing that theose pesky Turks that were going to come an steal all our jobs are possibly going to save 4,000 in a Breixt affected industry https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/aug/16/british-steel-provisional-deal-with-turkish-bidder-could-save-4000-jobs-oyak

So what do we think about Ken Clarke leading a government of national unity, then?

I would vote for it.

Corbyn’s plan is the simplest, most direct and quickest way to do that. So do they want to avoid no deal or not? Labour have tabled a plan which will work, all it needs is the tories and libdems to act in the national interest.

But it only works if it can get votes on parliament , that’s why Swinson suggested a labour & a Tory

Corbyn putting himself up doesn’t sound like putting country before party !

Corbyn’s plan is the simplest, most direct and quickest way to do that.

No it isn’t and it won’t work anyhow, BUT, any remain Tory can resign (well an MP can’t resign but can choose to be disqualified). Given the slender majority a handful of Tories disqualifying themselves would lose the government its majority and enable a succesful no-confidence vote by the opposition – but only if the Labour Brexiters voted against the government. Mass self-disqualifications by Tory Brexit rebels are the only way I can see of stopping Brexit before 30/10. Won’t happen of course. Crashing out on 30/10 is the most likely scenario if you believe the traders.

Anyone who thinks that “Corbyn wants Brexit” is just conspiracy theory nonsense,

If I may quoth Binners? “watch what they do, not what they say”

I’m pretty solidly Labour and I don’t trust Corbyn on Brexit, and in polling he’s consistently the least trusted politician and the last list I saw included May and Johnson!

Every MP knows that we’re crashing out at the end of October. Thats the default, and theres nothing anyone can do now we’re a government absolutely determined to ram it though at all costs. All this present nonsense is about is who gets the blame. Expect more of this sort of pointless, impotent posturing.

The truth is that most of them are to blame. Namely, every ****ing idiot that voted to trigger article 50 (to quote Donald Tusk) ‘without a sketch of a plan’ as to what would happen next.

In case people have forgotten the commons voted 498 : 114 to invoke Art. 50.

The way the BBC presented it at the time was bizarre:

MPs have voted by a majority of 384 to allow Prime Minister Theresa May to get Brexit negotiations under way.

They didn’t vote to get negotiations under way, they voted to leave the European union, because that’s the only thing Art. 50 does. So the vast majority of those MPs who had campaigned for remain turned around and voted to leave.

Even more ridiculously, at that point Mays Brexit ‘strategy’ consisted of three words:

Brexit Means Brexit

That was it. Thats what they all voted for. Thats why we’re in the mess we’re in now.

****ing clowns!

If I remember rightl the EU said they wouldnt negioatie until reciveing article 50. Doesn’t excuse the total lack of stragety or planning pre A50 submission; but that was the rason given why it had to be invoked quickly I think?

but that was the rason given why it had to be invoked quickly I think?

Yup.

The reason it was invoked so quickly was to avoid the eurosceptic papers attacks.

I love this its all corbyns fault line from some of you given the major splits in his party over brexit – 70+ labour mps want brexit in varying forms and the last attempt that labour made to take control of parliament to stop no deal brexit was stymied by 18 labour mps refusing to support the attempt – despite 8 (iirc) tories voting with labour

So actually the people who have stopped labour stopping brexit arenot the leadership but the backbenchers – many of whom are held up by the corbyn haters as true labour!

The Labour Brexiteers are a right old mish mash. Some old lefties, like Corbyn, some who would be considered Blairite

I don’t doubt for a second though, that if Grandad was still on the backbenches (where he should be) he’d have voted with the Brexiteers every single time

TJ very  few here think “it’s Corbyn’s fault” you should probably stop banging that particularly hollow drum. Most criticism of Corbyn comes from his lack of opposition. His party is overwhelmingly for remain, the confusion* from his front bench is frustrating to those here of.a leftwing remain stance.

*I’ve said before, from a Westminster POV it makes perfect sense, however it hasn’t translated well to public, and the lack of Corbyn vocally and loudly and clearly articulating arguments against the Johnson govt is doubly frustrating

Corbyn putting himself up doesn’t sound like putting country before party !

Corbyn is leader of the opposition. He’s dutybound to put himself up. The only way he can recuse himself of that is to resign. So who is playing politics? Corbyn or his opponents who are using the threat of no deal to remove him?

. He’s dutybound to put himself up.

if your first duty is to your party, rather than your country………

Most criticism of Corbyn comes from his lack of opposition

And that he is a godawful leader.

Where’s Boris? Out and about, in the news, you know what he’s pushing. Free money for everyone and a glorious Brexity future.

Even the minority that is the Lib Dem party have a leader in the news pushing the Anti Brexit stance.

But what are Labour doing?

Vernon Bogdanor talking to Ploitico London Playbook has come up with a wizard scenario

A Brexit election: Even if Boris Johnson holds an election after the U.K. has left with no deal on October 31, an election could be fought on Brexit, Bogdanor believes. “I don’t believe an election in November could frustrate a Remain or anti-no deal position. It is true the default position in Britain and the EU is that we leave on October 31. But the British parliament is sovereign so it can pass retrospective legislation, and it did for example with the War Crimes Act of 1991 — parliament could deem we hadn’t left and seek an extension.”

https://www.politico.eu/newsletter/london-playbook/politico-london-playbook-on-course-for-no-deal-view-from-dublin-friday-night-fight-night/

If you cant change the future change the past.

Fire up the Delorean

if your first duty is to your party, rather than your country

HM Leader of the Opposition is not a party post, it’s a statutory position paid for by the state, and the duties in regards to this post are to the country and not the party of the person who holds it. Corbyn can’t get himself out of putting himself up for government without resigning any more than Johnson can swan off for a bit then come back when he wants.