Mines is now 4 1/2 months old and the pressure from propaganda, midwives and health visitors to breastfeed seems unreasonable to me, but my other half didn’t mind and its her vote that counts.

First few weeks were tough as nobody mentions it hurts and once you get sore there is no time to heal, but due to my SO’s bloody mindedness its OK now.

In the NCT group that I was part of, of the 7 parents, 6 are using formula + expressing, so don’t get hung up on using formula as a failure, as a lot of people do! Are you part of a NCT group as my SO has found the group support from other new mums invaluable.

Mrs sees herself as double failure, quite unjustified, and keeps breaking down.

Look after her, this is piffle but in a sleep deprived state it wont be entirely obvious to her.

FWIW there’s nothing in the rules that says you can’t do breast and bottle. All the nutritional and immuno benefits of breast with the flexibility to allow you to step in and do night feeds letting your Mrs get some well earned and much needed shut eye, just a thought.

Anyone telling you how to raise your child should be ignored until you have headspace for them (IME). Assuming that you’re putting it in / wiping it off the correct ends then you’ll all be just fine doing it your way.

Edit: To qualify the above I have two mini-fantastics both of which dropped significant weight after birth. Both were raised ‘our’ way and both are now at school and absolutely fine.

My daughter was born last week and my wife and I have just been through this. Up until she was born my wife always wanted to breastfeed and I fully supported this. We both knew it would be tough as it would all be on her but we were prepared for it and gave it a go. In hospital my wife managed to breast feed and everything seemed fine.

Upon coming home it all started to go a bit wrong. My daughter stopped feeding, became very lethargic and really hard to wake. She didn’t feed for 13 hours and I had to call the out of hours midwife to come around. They recommended getting some formula just to get some food in her. The midwife and breast feeding specialist came out and my wife tried again and managed to start feeding but it was not very successful and baby was feeding for hours at a time and still not being responsive or waking. My wife was shattered and boobs were so sore she spent a lot of the night just crying. So we made the tough decision to go on to formula only. For the past 3 days she is a completely different baby, awake, alert and responsive. She wakes up for feeds every 3-4 hours and appears happy and content.

I agree breast is best but it is not always possible and there is a lot of pressure put on woman to breast feed. Having seen how well my daughter is compared to only a few days ago and how much better my wife looks and feels, with bottle you can help out with feeds during the night, we don’t feel guilty about going on to bottle feeding.

Do what is best for you, take all the advice but make your own decision. If breast feeding is putting too much stress on your wife then go for bottle and enjoy your baby.

I feel for you op.
We had a very stressful time. Baby not latching , could be tongue tied , but wasn’t. Different advice depending on who you talked to.
In the end, we(the missus tbh)persevered , she called in a breast feeding guru (horse whisperer) who imo calmed us all down and the little bugger breast fed til he was 2. Saved me a fortune on formula. 😀

It does get easier. very very slowly… 😉

gypsumfantastic – Member
FWIW there’s nothing in the rules that says you can’t do breast and bottle. All the nutritional and immuno benefits of breast with the flexibility to allow you to step in and do night feeds letting your Mrs get some well earned and much needed shut eye, just a thought.

Rightly or wrongly, we were told not to do that as it can cause ‘nipple confusion’.

Rightly or wrongly, we were told not to do that as it can cause ‘nipple confusion’.

Can’t say our two ever got confused, they have an innate instinct to suckle no matter what you offer them.

Rightly or wrongly, we were told not to do that as it can cause ‘nipple confusion’.

Who told you that? Not by any chance one of the very pro breast feeding people referred to above?

I’m calling BS on that too. Might be mildly confusing but it’s not anything like the naysayers would have you believe, and if it means you can share the burden with expressed milk (as we did with our second), even better.

http://www.parenting.com/article/is-nipple-confusion-a-myth

Thanks for all the stuff guys. Really helpful advice and good to know not on own.

In the end I did the following;

1. Got her Mum to come back down – 2 days and then a week off work next week. Emotional support had been really helpful for her and therefore me.

2. Rented a hospital size breastpump machine. Only 30 quid a month. Basically going to bypass the technical bits. Oscar isn’t sucking enough for it to work apparently. Had the north Surrey breastfeeding consultant in, really good, identified the boy as the issue.

3. Have got formula and bottles to give him his bulk ‘white carbs’ feeds.

Bit disturbing the research on this stuff. Basically suggests that formula is actively bad, not just not best.

Am hoping that if she can feed him at least some breast milk for as long as possible that might have enough hormones and antibodies and magic stuff to make a difference. Like a multivitamin after eating pizza all day.

Time will tell. Mrs is much happier and he isn’t screaming the place down. We were able to come home after 3 nights at hospital, which is something.

Now onto the sleep stage. Wife is asleep, I’ve given the boy a dummy and am rocking the crib. More bad Dad I suppose. Now I’m feeling like the cheating failure. Can’t tell if he is happy, or I’ve just shut him up.

Guilty. But atleast the Mrs is now getting some sleep.

Bit disturbing the research on this stuff. Basically suggests that formula is actively bad, not just not best.

You think that’s the case? I somehow think the world would be a different place if that were really the case.

Glad to hear things are looking up a bit 😀

Bit disturbing the research on this stuff. Basically suggests that formula is actively bad, not just not best.

Got any links? Genuinely curious as Number 2 Child is due in January. My understanding (from 4 years ago) is that the governments of developed nations are more or less pushing ‘breast is best’ because they are supporting the message given by the WHO in less-developed countries. In places where there may not be access to clean drinking water, formula can indeed be ‘actively bad’. Breast milk is basically sterile, and can help with the child’s immunity, win-win. And it’s not the done thing to have one set of rules for rich folk and one for poor folk, or something.

Basically for No.2 we’re going to try breast-feeding as much as possible, and top up with formula if needed, and probably won’t worry too much.

Can’t tell if he is happy, or I’ve just shut him up.

Same thing! They cry if they are hungry, tired, or in discomfort. If they are quiet then they are happy (as a general rule, obviously, exceptions may apply etc. etc.)

I’ve given the boy a dummy and am rocking the crib. More bad Dad I suppose. Now I’m feeling like the cheating failure.

Rubbish. Happy mum and dad = happy child, and vice versa. There’s no such thing as cheating, just different ways of doing things. People give advice based on their own experience. That advice may be totally, or not at all, relevant to you and your child (including this advice). Some people have raised great kids using dummies, some have raised little horrors using dummies. Same for the never-used-a-dummy crowd.

By the sounds of it, you know which is best but think it’s easy to start to listen to individuals, the world health organization knows what its talking about and its based on thousands and thousands of children not just a few. Plus what do they gave to gain from saying breast us best? Formula companies aren’t even allowed to advitise (not follow on milk before someone says they have seen an advert) in this country…read from that what you wish.
Anyway back to the point, its great that your supportive and looking to help, my sister had a similar experience by the sounds of it, all the pain, stress and feeling like a failure ment it took a while for her to bond with her wee boy. Sadly her partner is from the dark ages and was already not really in favour of breast feeding, he kind of took over and the decision was removed from my sister. You can always see the slight disappointment when she see’s my partner feeding ours, I know deep down she regrets it and the bond is no where near as strong.
My only advice is too keep helping and use the NHS to the full they will help and if someone isn’t helpful look for another midwife, it’s not the NHS it’s a bad midwife.
And don’t let them feed to sleep our one is a nightmare to get to sleep because we let him do this! (After the first 4 months)But then everyone remarks how increadablly healthy, full of energy (too much he’s looking me) and clever. But the bond between mum and baby is the most amazing thing not that bottle fed baby’s can’t but its a lot harder.
Good luck you sound like a good guy and will be a great dad

the world health organization knows what its talking about and its based on thousands and thousands of children not just a few. Plus what do they gave to gain from saying breast us best? Formula companies aren’t even allowed to advitise (not follow on milk before someone says they have seen an advert) in this country…read from that what you wish.

Scaremongering and over-zealous health officials? No one argues that breast isn’t best, particularly if you don’t have reliable and safe drinking water, but to say that kids raised on formula are somehow guaranteed to suffer in the long run is going too far. I have two healthy girls, now 15 and 11, and both were raised on formula.

And we used dummies, the horror!!!!!

Had almost the same experience as djambo up there but Chloe is now 11 months. The first few days we were kept in hospital as she wouldn’t/couldn’t feed and a million different midwives helped.

She wouldn’t latch or take a bottle. If you’ve been through this you know it becomes a 24hr mission and that’s all you focus on. Eventually we got the ‘right’ midwife and she started to get it but only with a nipple sheild.

We ditched the shields at about 6 months thankfully and she feeds super good on the boob but we have never managed to get a bottle in her. You’d have to meet her to see how alert and adult she acts. This has meant weaning has been really tough with only really making progress in the last 6 weeks.

She has a very low interest in food but the more savoury and Asian the better… And sits on the bottom percentile but in our ante natal group of 8 babies she is the most mentally acute and gentle. She is quite wee as a consequence of not eating much but she has no off switch and almost limitless energy.

It’s a journey you have to find the path off together as a group with the enormous support that is available. Disregard all the opinions of others who have different views and do what is right for your partner and baby ultimately. You will find a way. You will feel like it is never going to get better sometimes and you will be called upon to be the point of solidity and resolve in your home. You’ll come to know what support really means.

Oh and btw, it’s totally worth the pain. It’s temporary but they joy is permanent.

I really wouldn’t spend time worrying about breast vs formula milk. When you look back in a few years’ time, and put it into perspective with the hundreds of other things you do to raise a healthy child, you’ll wonder why you worried so much. There are some rather unpleasant characters out there who get very pushy and militant about breastfeeding. I breastfed my babies but I was lucky that I found it quite easy. I do remember mums who were made to feel like rubbish because they couldn’t, or didn’t want to, do it.
Caring for a baby is exhausting enough without beating yourself up about which milk.

As above. Wouldn’t lose a minute worrying about it, he’ll be fine. Wait till the little buggers flushed your car keys down the toilet or set fire to the cat. 🙂

Interesting comments cows_in_cars. I wonder if it was deliberate or well meaning but off the mark; but it’s exactly the sort of responses the Pro group gave my wife and i and which ‘helped’ us not one iota.

Here’s how your piece comes across to a desperate mother and father who want the best for their baby

It sounds like you know what’s best. But breast is better, all these respected organisations say so, and the formula milk isn’t even allowed to be advertised, that speaks volumes, eh? My sister’s using bottle milk but that’s because her husband made her and he’s an anti-breast philistine and now you can see she regrets it. And the baby doesn’t bond to you as well either. So anyway, make your own choice, I’m sure you know what’s best.

Is it any wonder that parents who make a rational and conscious decision to use formula milk feel stigmatised and failures, when even the well meaning give this message?

The breast is best WHO paper was written in 1981. It was / is then up to countries to enact legislation if they choose to; Britain banned formula milk advertising in 1995, 20 years ago. I am pretty sure that while breast was better then, and still is now, the differences are marginal and that formula milk as a pretty bloody good substitute for breast milk where it is preferred or needed. The trouble is that BiB can almost say what they want and any alternate view from researchers or the companies that make formula milk are shouted down as ‘they would say that, wouldn’t they?’

You say similar in your post ‘what do the WHO have to gain?’ – answer; nothing other than they have a belief and a position on it (which also takes into account that, yes, there have been some dubious marketing practices in the past, the access to clean water, sterilised equipment, etc.) so all they have to gain from it is continuing to espouse their position. Which after all is what we all do – what do you or I have to gain from having this discussion either, other than a belief and a desire to present an opinion that we think is true?

Other comments while true are not exact. It can be harder to bond but that’s due to skin on skin contact. Both the wife and i used to strip down to feed whether formula, breast or breast from bottles. It’s not the content it’s the delivery that matters in that case.

There won’t be a definitive answer because to run a proper study where for example one twin gets breast only and the other formula only would be unethical. Instead you have to do comparisons, and they are inevitably flawed. eg: the supposed link between formula and later life obesity. Is it a link? Or is it that generally posh middle class families have more time to do breast feeding and get the support they need; lower income families have mothers that need to get back to work. And the real link is between middle class fmailies with better long term diet vs poor families and junk food?

Sorry was meant to be well meaning.
The way you say you fed your child sounds really good.
I used my sister as an example because it’s really sad to see, she felt like she failed as a mum in terms of giving birth, handed over responsibility to the dad, as he’s had children before and by the time she wanted to breastfeed the choice had been removed as she no longer had any milk. And thus felt like she failed again. She’s a good mum but you can see that her wee one is more her partners than her’s. But clearly that’s not the case for all

And that’s all I would say to the OP really is try and keep your partner feeding a bit just so when she feels better she still has the choice which ever way she decides to go.

Sorry I didn’t mean to offend anyone, I am pro breastfeeding but the bottle v’s breast arguments annoys me mainly because bottle feeding parents are often so defensive and like they are the picked upon minority when in this country (others are much better) only 1% of children are exclusively breastfeed till they are 6 months. 1%! That figure does include parents that wean early but still bottle feeding hardly not the done thing.

But I think as above post points out a lot of the “negatives” can be cover come with good practice and good parenting throughout your child’s life.

only 1% of children are exclusively breastfeed till they are 6 months. 1%!

Interesting stat. Link? How many are fed exclusively breastmilk, whether draught, bottle or cup? That’s the real debate breast vs formula. And how many are fed part and part (mainly breastmilk but topped up with formula)

Completely agree FunkyDunc. No one denies it would be preferable but people should be supported in this decision and allowed to choose not to without being made to feel a failure if they don’t.

This. People don’t die from unclean drinking water in this country.

We actually had the opposite problem – both of our children flatly refused to take a bottle, even though it was expressed breast milk. After a couple of months of feeling like an abject failure trying to feed my daughter, my wife and I agreed to knock it on the head.

I do remember that my wife got some good advice from a helpline when she was having trouble with our eldest biting, I think it was through the NHS. Might be worth a go?

http://www.unicef.org.uk/BabyFriendly/About-Baby-Friendly/Breastfeeding-in-the-UK/UK-Breastfeeding-rates/

I think you’re right though I think a lot will be breastfed but topped up or as I say a lot of early weaning. What I was trying to make the point is that I don’t think people should feel like they are in the minority. We have had loads of nasty, snipey comments because our wee one’s breastfed as I am sure those who are have had but it’s not all easy, joy and light this side of the fence.

Not that I am looking for sympathy but understanding the facts would help people, ie for 6 months our wee one couldn’t be apart from my partner for more than an hour-ish, I was always seen as the hapless dad “what can’t he take him? Pfft (roll of eyes)Dads!” . We were endless late for things as he would be feeding. We seemed useless compared to other organised parents. We still, almost two years on haven’t had a night off from him (which annoys the hell out of one set of grandparents, who we endlessly have to explain to them he can’t stay over because he needs mummy) and we have not had one full nights sleep in two years! (Rubbish advert for breast feeding)
Not that I want sympathy but I find it hard that bottle feedings the normal and does influence how people view looking after babies.

The other thing that has been missed in this slightly unwanted Breast vs bottle, is the advantages to mum, less likely to get postnatal depression, less like to get breast cancer and will lose the “pregnancy weight” much quicker.

But for the OP partner maybe the bottle will help her feel better than persevering with something that doesn’t feel “right”.

But you do have to do wants best for you, but think for the OP if you do go down the bottle route your not going to be alone.
The way I see it is it’s a bit like eating white bread over brown, it’s not the end of the world and there are loads of other factors to take into account for the over all picture.

Problem is, they tell you how easy it can be, because they want people to try, but it can be really hard.

Our first was really difficult for my wife, but she is very stubborn and after three months of problems it went ok. Exclusive feeding until 6mo, and she finally gave up nighttime feeds on her own about 14mo.

Problem is, breast IS better, but it can be too difficult – so you have to weigh it up and make the right choice. Be decisive in other words, and don’t engage anyone else in conversation about it!

From my observations, a lot of mums who choose to bottle feed ARE picked on. Whether they are the majority or minority, I don’t know.
OP – I would strongly advise your wife to steer clear of breast vs bottle debates on parenting websites.
The NCT gave me good advice.

Would agree DON’T read stuff from the internet, I would say the NHS is the best bet, I know they are more towards Breast but think they will still be supportive. The whole debate is fairly pointless really.

No.1 son was breast fed exclusively till weaned. Wouldn’t have a bottle.

No. 2 son was also, but would accept a bottle, so we supplemented allowing Mrs B to get a full nights sleep (and me take my full turn at zombie-dom)

No. 3 went more or less bottle only from around 8 weeks as frankly he was a greedy bugger.

There are no rules, and it won’t make any significant difference. Just don’t discuss it with anyone, keep off the internetz and get on with it.
Fact is it’s a difficult time without making it harder for yourselves – the important point is they are fed and cared for, not the method – it’s not forever anyway.

No.1 son was breast fed exclusively till weaned. Wouldn’t have a bottle.
No. 2 son was also breast milk fed, but would accept a bottle of expressed milk.

Neither has ever had formula (except a bottle one of them nicked as a toddler, but he was on solids and cow’s milk by then anyway).

I don’t judge either way, sometimes it doesn’t work out (though that can be for all sorts of sortable reasons). But occasionally you hear people saying exclusive breast feeding is unrealistic – and they’re wrong too.

We actually attended a few breastfeeding workshops as a couple (“look folks these freaks can make it work”) and it surprised me how many of the women wanted to ask me how I felt about my wife breastfeeding. There was clearly a feeling amongst some mothers that their partners were putting up with the breastfeeding rather than being supportive.

Look at it this way. Breastfeeding is better than formula – evolution is a wonderful thing. But formula is better than no feeding and by a very long way.

If the baby won’t latch now, consider expressing and using a bottle. 99% of the benefit and a reduction in the stress. Freeze it, save it for later when they need milk for nursery or when mum’s out on the lash and dad’s at home with junior.

Concentrate on what you can do, not what you can’t.

Reduce stress whenever you can.

Beware dodgy advice from middle aged men on ‘tinternet. I am not a trained counsellor.

All for breast feeding. Nothing more natural tbh.

Only issue I have is when you don’t realise the mother is breastfeeding. Happened to me recently at the climbing wall. Walking past a mother with a newborn cuddled into her. I gave her an acknowledging smile as I walked past and was looking at what I though was the babies head. Turned out it was her breast and when I looked back at her she didn’t seem so impressed at me gawping.

Thank god I didn’t choose to stroke the babies head……

All for it as long as missunderstandings are taken as just that and not some climber getting a good eyefull

Did his interesting birthmark not give it away?

Little one was feeding, the interesting birthmark was covered up. His head was rather bald though (Thank god)

Encouraging breastfeeding is great.
Discouraging formula feeding is wrong.

Cousin was over “over encouraged” towards breastfeeding to the point of bullying, when it obviously wasn’t working out for her or her kid.
Child lost weight and had to go back into hospital, mother suffered depression related to the feeling of failure from the breastfeeding not working out.
There are some really nasty, uncaring “profesionals” pushing agendas too far without thinking about the people involved.

If it’s not working out for either the kid or the mother then you need to do something else, that’s just being a parent.
No-one is “to blame”, mainly because you’ve done nothing wrong.

This is the last thing I will say but the above pretty spot on. Breastfeeding is best but if it’s not working (for whatever medical reason) then thank god for formula. It’s what happens with animals (domestic/farm/captivity obviously) mum feeds if for any reason it can’t you have to bottle feed. I certainly don’t think badly towards anyone that can’t feed for a medical or psychological reason…why it’s wrong to pass any judgement on any stranger feeding with a bottle as you don’t know why they are…but equally poor to sit at the next table in a café banging on, loudly, how it’s unsightly, unnatural and not sterlie!?!? while a small baby does the most natural thing in the world especially for them.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2812877/

This was my principle source of worry last night.

Still. Heading to around 30/70 with breast pump.

but equally poor to sit at the next table in a café banging on, loudly, how it’s unsightly, unnatural and not sterlie!?!? while a small baby does the most natural thing in the world especially for them.

Sadly, there are still some people that can’t deal with this most natural of acts, thankfully a very small minority albeit quite often a vocal one. But as we saw recently, that isn’t the majority and in many cases can easily be countered. That doesn’t mean breastfeeding mums shouldn’t be discrete; most of us don’t want to look at you doing it because of your own privacy as much as anything, but we don’t mind if we see you doing it. (does that make sense – what i mean is if you’re flapping them about wildly in public then it attracts attention and makes people more uncomfortable, compared to someone calmly and quietly just getting on with it?)

http://www.buzzfeed.com/robstott/this-cafe-had-the-perfect-response-when-a-man-complained-abo#.wdZvQ8xgA

http://www.exeterexpressandecho.co.uk/8216-Ukip-supporter-politely-ask-eat-corner-8217/story-25466824-detail/story.html

Agree with the above (and I know I am going back on what I said I will try and make this the last thing!) and I except some people find it difficult to deal with/see but, it’s why women have boobs!

I know some people find it difficult and your right (I the description made me laugh!) you should try to be discreet but you tell the baby that! Our one it horrendous he dives his hand in to my partners top all the time, he stops feeding as soon as anything happens, say on a train when the conductor comes he just turns his head to see whats going on, boob! My partner tries to be discreet, she really, really doesn’t want her boobs on show but sometimes it’s impossible.
And before anyone suggests a cloth, have you met a baby! Well certainly a chimp like creature like my son, my partner tried to use a cloth he just grabbed it and waved it about, again look everyone I am feeding and boobs!

And this is sort of what I mean, and I am not saying you theotherjonv as you seem pretty clued up, but as breast feeding in this country is relatively rare people just don’t understand the issues, and it’s not just a case of covering up, you really have little control over the leech like creature!

I know just what you mean, my second was breastfed and we’ve had all those experiences too. Most people will avert their gaze naturally, people don’t want to stare, but when that happens inevitably people see stuff, even if it is just glimpses.

If anyone (on the giving end) really can’t deal with that, then there are alternatives such as expressing so you can bottle feed when out, or accepting that you might want to sit in the quiet corner or a dedicated mother and baby room. If you can breastfeed, and want to breastfeed, then you need to accept that just occasionally a stranger might see your boobs, and occasionally squared that stranger might be a grumpy fecker who’ll make a deal of it; tell them to **** off and the rest of us will back you while you do. Anyone actually using the fact that there is a small possibility they have to deal with that sort of situation as a reason to not breastfeed – I’d say that’s poor on their part.

Given the shortness of some women’s shorts and the low-cut-ness of some women’s tops, I can’t believe people make a fuss about discrete breastfeeding in public!

People who come out with the “woman should breastfeed but discreetly” or “it’s fine but I’m embarrassed for the mother” should go away and **** themselves.

Take one baby. It has a mind of it’s own and a strong desire for boob coupled with a sucking action of a vacuum pump, teeth and terrible motor skills.

Take one mothers’ boob. Chafed and raw from said baby.

The end result of this is that sometimes boobs get flashed.

Deal with it.

OP, my wife had a nightmare feeding our first child and subsequently trained to be a breastfeeding councillor. If your wife would like some friendly, pragmatic non judgemental advice, drop me a line and I’ll put you in touch. Kenadolphe At hotmail DOT com

There is light at the end of the tunnel. Since baby ajt is now 3 days old, it is only 5 weeks and 4 days until he starts needing baby rice and mashed banana to keep his hunger satisfied. Going by what my offspring were like.

@tomd, not sure if that’s aimed at me or not? When I say be discrete, I mean that while a lady clearly has the right to breastfeed in public, equally doing so in an appropriate manner so as to minimise embarrassment for those that may be made somewhat uncomfortable by it is just common courtesy. Being a breastfeeding mum doesn’t remove the need to behave appropriately for the situation you’re in. At one end you dont have to hide in a dark room, but equally having a ‘it’s my choice, **** em’ attitude isn’t suddenly OK because you happen to be a nursing mother.

Like I said in my post, been there, done it, had the tutting old dears as well as the supportive cafe owner that clears a booth for some privacy away from people who might not like it. And yes, occasionally a stray boob escapes and is seen by passers by. That’s different to flapping them out in the middle of tescos and then when people are taken aback telling them to deal with it.

IMHO, of course.

Yeah it was aimed at you. It’s not a choice. Baby needs food, baby gets fed. If you want to take it up with a breast feeding mother, good luck to you.

It’s just some sort of weird Victorian prudishness. Have a look at yourself, it’s just not an issue in pretty much every other country on earth. What would you do in Malaysia when women breast feed theretheir [edit] babies at business meetings? Combust?