😆

The ex-Con UKIP voters will go back to Cons come the GE as they won’t want Lab in. The ex-Lab UKIP voters might stay with UKIP, and that will be Eds downfall. Then the knives will be out for him, if not beforehand.

Wishful thinking there on the Labour voters staying UKIP, but Tory voters staying with UKIP? Depends on how more anti-EU the torys get in the next year.

I like Andy B probably not as clever as Ed M who is seriously clever.

Skinner takes a liberal stance regarding social issues. He voted in favour of equalisation of the age of consent, civil partnerships, adoption rights for same-sex couples, and to outlaw discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation.[3] Furthermore, throughout his career he has maintained a strongly pro-choice stance on abortion. On several occasions he has enabled the defeat of moves to reduce the number of weeks at which termination of a pregnancy can be legally performed in Britain by “talking out the measure” (filibustering), as on 20 January 1989, when he held up proceedings by trying to move a writ for a by-election in the constituency of Richmond.[4] He had previously used this filibuster technique on 7 June 1985, when preventing a bill by Enoch Powell, which would have banned stem cell research, from being debated. He held up proceedings by moving a writ for a by-election in Brecon and Radnor.[5][6] Skinner regards his defeat of Powell’s bill as his proudest political achievement.[7]

In 2003, he was one of a large number of Labour MPs who voted against the Iraq War; he later rebelled against the party line when he voted against government policy to allow terror suspects to be detained without trial for 90 days. In March 2007, Skinner and 88 other Labour MPs voted against the government’s policy of renewing the Trident Nuclear Missile System.[8]

He often tells of turning up for work at his colliery after he had been elected as an MP, refusing to see it as his new occupation. This is the reason Skinner gives for refusing to miss any sitting in the House of Commons, saying that “if you missed a shift at the pit, you would get the sack”. He also refuses to adopt the pairing system in which he can agree a mutual abstention with a Conservative MP, saying he won’t cover for them whilst they “go swanning off to Ascot or to their boardrooms”. In the 2004–2005 sitting of the House he claimed the least expenses for an MP who served the full year.[33] He has never been a member of an All-Party Parliamentary Group; does not eat alongside parliamentary colleagues in the Commons dining room; does not take trips or holidays ‘paid for’ by others; never drinks in the Commons Bar; and stays in the House of Commons during the Queen’s Speech at the State Opening of Parliament, as he advocates outright abolition of the House of Lords.

I’d vote for him

Do you really think they don’t do the sums before doing something like this?

Honest answer? No I don’t think they do… How sad is that.

Luckily for labour, Cameron is probably the PM with the worst ratings ever ( I bet he even nudges thatcher and brown for that dubious honour) and the Tories haven’t won in 20years, and in the last by election they threw ALL their resources at it, and still their majority was halved. Milliband is a **** for sure but the Tories are toast

Is he really the best that Labour have got?

Given the choice there is Ed Miliband is easily the best Labour have.

When Tony Blair and the extreme right-wing of the party seized power they immediately went about dismantling democracy within the Labour Party, and anyone who didn’t commit themselves to absolute obedience was excluded from any of the higher structures.

Tony Blair surrounded himself uniquely with yes men and women in an unprecedented way, even Thatcher for all her failings had an inclusive team at the head of her party and in cabinet, which as we all know eventually led to her own demise.

It did however allow for some sort of vague semblance of democracy and for a variety of opinions, personalities, and talents. They weren’t ruthlessly suppressed at the first sign.

Tony Blair had no such worries, only those who were sure to have unquestioned loyalty and no personal views of their own, and weren’t “off message”, were allowed to progress within the party.

As a consequence even when in the later stages of his leadership there were dark mutterings of dissatisfaction within the party Tony Blair’s position was perfectly secure. He went when he decided to go and it was never going to be any different.

The result of all this is that we have what we have today…….a whole selection of indistinguishable New Labour clones who have nothing new to offer.

The only glimmer of positiveness in this otherwise sad and sorry state of affairs is that New Labour clone David Miliband, the man who is more “Tony Blair” than Tony Blair himself, isn’t Labour leader.

That’s what I always remind myself of when I feel those inevitable surges of exasperation at Miliband’s totally uninspirational leadership. It does help to make me feel a little better.

That’s what I always remind myself of when I feel those inevitable surges of exasperation at Miliband’s totally uninspirational leadership. It does help to make me feel a little better.

Totally agree that David M is and probably would have been worse, however it’s not just a choice of which Miliband. There are others, although as I said above I’m struggling to see who other than Burnham (fantasies about Skinner et al aside).

I’m really not bothered about who it is, but about the policies, and more importantly it being someone who has the backbone to actually represent and fight for the people which the labour party was formed to represent. If it can’t do that, there’s no point in it. The tragedy is that, despite what the media tells us, there is an appetite out there for just this type of party, and because of the failings of the Labour party to grasp the nettle, these voters are bizarrely going to UKIP. It’s the American tea party thing all over again.

who has the backbone to actually represent and fight for the people which the labour party was formed to represent

The bourgeoisie?

IHN – Member
…I’d vote for him

It’s great there’s at least one person in the Labour party who has had an actual job.

He is the gift that keeps on giving.

Andy Burnham is the only hope for the Labour Party. I went to school with Andy and knew him really well (you’ll be surprised to hear it wasn’t Eton, but a northern comp). His political instincts were probably formed at the same time as mine, as our bus took us every day past Parkside Colliary, where Black Marias full of storm troopers bused in, on premium overtime, from the south east, beat the living shit out of people for having the audacity to want to keep their jobs! The pit closures did wonders for the local economy! It was great! Cheers Maggie!

He used to drive me mad, in the Blair years, when he seemed as much of a yes man as the rest of them. Since then, and particularly during the leadership campaign it seems he’s gone ‘off message’. Thank god someone has!

He’s now the only member of the labour front bench that honestly appears to get it!

He’s openly commented on the failure of the Labour Party to connect with it’s core vote, and the need for profound change. And been bold enough to blame himself as much as anyone, as a generation of ‘career politions, which have caused the disenchantment. muppets like Milliband think they can carry on as before, and try and limp over the line at the GE with 34% of the vote! For being slightly less awful than the Tories!

Given the dogged determination that led to him being at the forefront of pressing for the Hillsborough enquiry, and the deserved respect that’s earned him in a lot of northern working class communities, I’d love to hear his thoughts on that plasticine headed imbecile posing holding a copy of the Sun!

Hmm, personally I’m more of a fan of Alan Johnson as a leader (an amazing background!) But I suspect that the moment has probably passed and he’d be too old now.

St Aelred’s Roman Catholic High School ?

didn’t realise you went to a faith school Binners 😛

Aye … We’re both left footers! Nothing makes you reject religion like a catholic education! 😉

….. And… No. In answer to your next question. I’ve never been at the receiving end of ‘the choirboys lament’ 😀

Andy Burnham is the only hope for the Labour Party. I went to school with Andy…

I see a glitch.

Millions of potential Labour voters didn’t go to school with Andy Burnham. If going to school with him on the same bus is what qualifies you to know that he’s “the only hope for the Labour Party” then the plan appears fatally flawed to me.

Well you could always ignore the rest of what I said, and just concentrate on the school issue I suppose.

If you’re an idiot.

Well despite being an idiot I did read the rest of what you said. I couldn’t see the bit which explained how he would become leader and save the Labour Party.

EDIT : To be fair I don’t think the Labour Party is “savable”. The problems extend far beyond who is leader. The whole structure is rotten and the complete lack of democracy means that it can never be representative of anything other the views of one individual. Ed Miliband, or any other Labour leader for that matter, can decide what Labour Party policy will be whilst they are having their early morning shit. That’s how dire the situation is.

Don’t be cruel Ernie, its clear that most people who have dealt with AB think he’s ‘a pretty straight sort of guy’ 😉

Actually Z-11 I reckon that Andy Burnham probably is a pretty straight sort of guy, compared to the rest of the shower of **** at least. Anyone who writes articles/speeches which only the Morning Star will publish can’t be all that bad.

The problem imo stems from the fact that he is the Labour Party.

He’d struggle to become leader of the Labour Party, for the same reason as last time. Because it’s now centred on the parochial, London-obsessed Islington classes represented by milliband. Completely disconnected from their northern working class base, which they now treat with something bordering on contempt.

Maybe another electoral defeat will concentrate minds.

Andy is the only member of the front bench that has actually raised this disconnect. The rest pretend it isn’t happening. But it is. I’m a natural labour voter who presently struggles to see what they’re actually for any more. I’m not alone!

Andy has shown some passion and commitment for a cause that means a lot to a lot of people in labours core constituencies. Not something you could accuse many labour politicians of the present vintage of.

If you listen to him speak, he speaks with the same passion and lack of cynicism about the NHS among other things. And he seems to have another thing milliband so obviously lacks. Ideas.

I agree with you completely that Blair hollowed out the Labour Party, purely for his own benefit

I’m a natural labour voter who presently struggles to see what they’re actually for any more. I’m not alone!

*Puts hand up*

What we need is for Scotland to show the North that cutting ties from London is a good thing, then we can secede and AB can be el presidente. And we’ll all live happily ever after….

I’m no fan of Miliband but if we refuse to vote for him because he doesn’t photograph well then we’re idiots…

Refuse to vote for him because he has no obvious policies, fair enough

No positive vision for Britain to survive as globalisation changes the balance of global power – fair enough…

Too much ideology and too little pragmatism, maybe…

Interesting story for you Ernie:

Mrs Binners works for a charity. They were down in that London for a conference last month. Andy Burnham was there to give a speech and make some presentations. I won’t go into the cause, but it would be natural liberal labour territory.

The organisers were getting a bit flustered about someone cocking up the agenda.

Turns out Ed Milliband had turned up, on spec, with his ‘People’ who we’re being insistent about him also giving a speech. The organisers told him they had an itinerary worked out months in advance, so they didn’t care who he was, he could **** off

I think that speaks volumes about how Andy is viewed by the present leadership. His speech went down very well, and he stayed chatting to everyone for the evening. Ed had left with his people, looking for the next photo op

I thought of the episode of the Thick of It, where Malcolm tucker is trying to hijack people for the leaders conference speech 🙂

Maybe another electoral defeat will concentrate minds.

At last, something we can agree on. IMO only the complete electoral collapse of the Labour Party will bring about real change in British politics. Labour winning elections, or almost winning elections, will not cause any changes. Those who today control the Labour Party are perfectly happy with that scenario, it serves their purpose. For me however it’s not fit for purpose, ie the purpose of representing ordinary working people in Parliament.

is that the same Andy Burnham who repeatedly refused to meet relatives of people who died at Mid Staffs, or acknowledge the concerns they were raising, and who refused 81 requests into a public enquiry, voted against it when it was proposed in parliament, and as Secretary of State oversaw the development of a strategy to shut hospitals that he has since opposed ever since finding himself in opposition?

Andy may well be a good guy and straight talking, but his unwillingness to meet or talk to members of the public undoubtedly meant the tragic events at Mid Staffs went on a lot longer than they should have, and there’s plenty of pointers now that he will say pretty much anything if it secures votes.

It’s quite sad to see what’s become of an MP who used to be known for his integrity.

ernie_lynch – Member
Maybe another electoral defeat will concentrate minds.
At last, something we can agree on. IMO only the complete electoral collapse of the Labour Party will bring about real change in British politics…

Which means a Tory/UKIP coalition.

By the time they’ve done another term of austerity Wales, NI, and the North will have seceded, and formed a Federation with the People’s Republic of Scotland. 😈

Independence for the south east of England!!!!!!!

Which means a Tory/UKIP coalition.

You’ve had a peek at the next general election results and you know that UKIP will win some parliamentary seats ?

The complete electoral collapse of the Labour Party would lead to a thumping huge majority for the Tories, they wouldn’t need to enter coalition with anyone.

So we would have a Tory government, just like we’ve had for the last 35 years then.

The big difference would be that the Labour Party would no longer be mistakenly seen as a credible parliamentary alternative to the Tories, which they clearly aren’t.

A new opposition party would indisputably emerge, the only way that wouldn’t happen would be if everyone was completely happy with the Tories for ever after, an unlikely scenario outside a fairy tale.

A new party would provide the basis for new structures, new guiding principles, and new commitments. Realistically it’s more likely to be a loose coalition of organizations with a common purpose and goals, as have emerged elsewhere and did indeed emerge in Britain a hundred years ago when the Labour Representation Committee was formed.

Doing nothing different will result in everything remaining exactly the same, a self-evident fact. Sadly I fear that millions will persist to misdirect their anti-Tory sentiments by continuing to vote for a party which they know does not truly represent them or provide any sort of real alternative. So I don’t expect change anytime soon.

So we would have a Tory government, just like we’ve had for the last 35 years then.

Only we haven’t.

Oh yes we have. Don’t led a red badge fool you.

We have a two party system that’s headed for the centre ground. Old skool left and right politics finished years ago.

Don’t let Ernie fool you, he’s waaaaaay left of the Labour party, andthing from that far away looks Tory

😯

You think the two largest parties have shifted left-wards since 2010?

I use “Tory” as a generic term, whether the politician concerned is Conservative, New Labour, or Liberal Democrat, makes no difference to me – same policies, different packaging.

A sentiment which I share with a large proportion of the population which fails to recognise any discernible differences between politicians of varying parties, and which has created a climate of apathy and voter indifference.

The only one I can think of with any shred of credibility is Burnham (wonder what he’s got to say on the Sun thing BTW?).

Knowing Liverpool reasonably well, and that Burnham is a toffee (and thus whatever he says on the subject is likely to be taken the wrong way by someone), I suspect the answer is ‘as little as possible’

There are plenty of reason for hoping that Ed is not the next PM but being photoed with The Sun is hardly one of them. That’s equivalent to saying that every time CMB is photoed with Boris that he is insulting the people of L’pool. Let’s have some perspective.

Is he the best no, but he was the one they wanted as leader apparently. So that’s the choice. But the sepia tinged views of old labour is a bit odd. It was a party that became unelectable – even Pilloch couldn’t score in an open goal.. Is that what people on the left really want?

Maybe another electoral defeat will concentrate minds.

There was an interesting piece on local radio a while ago discussing the fallout from the Euro elections and how it fitted with UK politics. They had, apparently, spoken to several back-benchers, party members & ex-MP’s in their data gathering who agreed that Labour needed fundamental changes and the most likely thing to bring this about would be an embarrassing loss at the next GE.

There was a message coming across that for years Labour had put the wishes of their core support to one side in their bid to win ‘middle England’, a strategy that very much relied on the presumption that these supporters would never vote Tory and few would even consider the LibDems. The problem Labour has now is that there is a sizeable section of their voters who have an alternative, UKIP, to consider. With the LibDems seemingly out in the wilderness many disenchanted Labour voters may just turn to UKIP as their ‘protest’ vote.

There was a lot more to it but it did all seem to make sense.

Tory/UKIP coalition? Scarily, it may not be that much of an impossibility!?!

Don’t let Ernie fool you, he’s waaaaaay left of the Labour party, andthing from that far away looks Tory

I have no intention of fooling anyone, I am perfectly honest where I stand politically. Unlike Binners I am not a natural Labour supporter, my past support for Labour, which has been considerable in terms of election work – at one time far more than most individual party member, was always based solely on the premise that for all its failings, and there were many, it was THE mass party of the working classes (however you perceive them to be) And for that reason, and that reason alone, deserved my loyal support.

he was the one they wanted as leader apparently.

As has been said above, the only reasons he got elected were because he’s called Ed but not Balls, and Miliband but not David.