I agree – I think the 15.5mph limit is good for a device that anyone can buy and ride on the roads irrespective of experience or training.

I wished speed pedelecs were an easier/legal option but we aren’t there yet. Hacking/unlocking a normal ebike will do me till they are.

The 15mph is a hard one for commuting, as it does mean you have that point where you want to go faster, but have to use a lot of effort to do it, i had an e-bike (that got nicked after just over a week!), and it was only really going to be used for those commute days where it’s blowing a gale, or i was absolutely knackered and wanted an easy ride, if you have a normal bike it might be worth a try to switch it around and use the e-bike for those days where 15mph is enough?

Average speed of all male riders in Strava is 22kmh (13.8 mph) and for women that is 19.5kmh. That’s a lot of skinny lycra types caning it at the weekend and lots of people in group rides. 15mph with an ebike you can maintain almost constantly (apart from downhills of course where you can go much faster) for a commute is no hardship. And you can have a pannier full of clothes, gym kit, shopping etc with no effect. I feel there is an element of willy waving going on here.

How easy is easy on an e-Bike?

I take most of my commutes pretty easy anyway, Z2 heart rate stuff, but there are days when I really don’t want to be working at all.

I guess also you get that 15.5mph regardless of super chunky puncture proof tyres/luggage/multiple layers of waterproof gear etc?

I would be ready to sign up were my next purchase not supposed to be my new CX bike. Guess I could race the MTB for one more year…

I feel there is an element of willy waving going on here.

New here ?

How easy is easy on an e-Bike?

Can spin the legs and actually input zero and get to work.

Or can sit at upper Z2 and only use the battery for the climb at the end.

My e bike is a long tail cargo bike and it doesn’t care if I do the shopping on the way home it still does 15.5mph up the hill

Guy I know has just bought an ebike.

Integrated battery in the down tube. Motor is in the front hub. Led display in the top tube.

If you don’t know what to look for it looks like a normal town /city bike. Sit up and beg, pannier rack. Just the brakes and a tiny little unobtrusive button on the bar.

He can use an app connected to the bike and then manually choose the location, and with that the limit. Says he’s in the States and it’ll carry you up to 32kmh.

It has a two speed automatic hub gear on the back,which feels strange when not using the battery.

Choose your level of support, start pedalling, press the little button on the bars and you get a turbo effect. The motor kicks in and drags you up to 32kmh without you having to put any real effort in. And as long as the pedals are turning the motor carries you along. You needn’t put any pressure on the pedals for the motor to do its thing. There is obviously no torque sensor, just a movement sensor and a long as the pedals are moving, however slowly, so are you.

Quite an amazing bit of kit, but doesn’t have anything to do with cycling as most of us understand it.

To be fair, it had replaced his motorbike for the most part around town. And it’s certainly more preferable to loud motorbikes and cars on the road.

IMO e-bikes are probably more appealing as a viable commute method with speed gains if you live in a hilly area and you don’t want to arrive at work or home in a sweaty mess.

My ~4.3 mile commute is mostly downhill on the way to work with just ~130 feet of climbing, Strava tells me my best effort was ~18.6mph outside privacy zones. The biggest time factors are my luck at the traffic lights, the railway barriers (which seem to be down ~80%+ of the time, so I carry fatbike over the bridge) and if I’m lucky to have a rare easterly tailwind.

On the way home, slightly different ~4.6 miles with ~352 feet of climbing, Strava tells me my best effort was ~15.7mph outside privacy zones. The two short ~8% ramps have a big bearing on the time, some days I’m up for attacking them after work and other days, just no!

E-bike would typically save me maybe ~1min on the way in and ~3mins on the way home, but for now besides the price of e-bikes and replacement batteries, I’d rather have the physical exercise.

I was sat in some traffic at the bottom of the local high street yesterday. A few cars back was a police car. Cycle lanes on both sides of the road.

A dude on what looked like a small, foldable ebike whizzed past, on the other side of the road in the cycle lane against the flow of traffic. He wasn’t pedalling so obviously throttle controlled.

I waited for the blue lights… Nope. Nothing. Makes you think.

over a 7 mile commute with the best part of a thousand feet of climbing the e bike took me from 45 mins to 35 mins. No difference on the return which is mainly downhill

How easy is easy on an e-Bike?

Take the assistance figure for the Bosch Active line – a very popular motor on a commute style bike.

Bosch Active Line Support Levels:-
TURBO: 250%
SPORT: 170%
TOUR: 100%
ECO: 40%

Ignoring Turbo (unless your ride was very short that is going to run out in not long – it’s intended for shorter bursts up really steep stuff, not permanent use) and eco (that’s for eeking out all day or limping home) you have 170% help or 100% help. That does not mean tour level does all the work – it matches your effort. Sport adds 170% of your output so if you were putting in 100 Watts your total combined output would by 270 Watts. As you say you might want to spec the bike a bit more sit up and beg (with more wind resistance), have bulkier tyres and carry stuff you would maybe not bother with if on a conventional bike. Added to the extra weight of the bike (heavier style and the battery) that might soak up 40% (making eco mode roughy neutral to riding a sportier bike with no luggage and no assistance) of that assistance. So with a bit of back of fag packet maths if you previously had to put in 200 Watts to get to work in a given time you would now make it there in the same time only putting out 125 or 87 Watts. Quite a difference but not the ‘actually input zero’ Trail_Rat says above.

If you are whinging about the cost of insurance now you will be in for a shock if you get caught. Nothing puts up premiums like a ‘driving with no insurance’ conviction.

[disclosure – I live in Stockholm and the rules here are a little different…]

So, those bloody scooter things are legal here, but technically classed as cycles, so the same rules apply to them with where they can go and how they should be ridden (RANT: the rules get ignored all the frscking time!!).

It is also possible to buy a petrol moped with a limited engine size/power and have it classed as a cycle (i.e. no equivalent to MoT and therefore no license plates) an so allow it to be used on cycle tracks. These are limited in top speed.

You can buy electric mopeds (see above) that may or may not be besikted (MoT) and so may or may not have a license plate and be allowed on cycle tracks.

Electric bikes kind of fall into the latter category and are very popular here. You see a lot of pedal assist, but a lot of people do buy the imports with just a front wheel motor. As the rules around mopeds are quite clear, this second sort kind of falls into this category, but it is confusing enough that the lines are blurred if they have been chipped/hacked and exceed the regulations. I can imagine that you would only get your collar felt if you were either using one like a dick or had been in an accident and your victim said it was your fault.

To be honest, I have less of a problem with e-bikes of either sort than I do with the frscking scooters EVERYWHERE. They just get abandoned all over the place and the people using them are the biggest bunch of selfish, unobservant, uncoordinated, selfish fscks. I mean, why the FSCK would you use one to ride up a hill in a cycle lane GOING THE WRONG WAY??? WHY?? Retards.

That reminds me, a couple of weeks ago I was driving behind something that was just downright stupid, and so dangerous I couldn’t quite believe it.

Sat in a queue of traffic at some lights in my car, 2 lanes going right onto a 40mph DC, 1 lane going left. A moped/scooter filters past on the inside of all three lanes – being a biker I though the filter move they made was a bit risky, said to myself ‘ooh, don’t do that! As they slotted into the already moving traffic – the rider was a young woman.

I end up behind the moped, and I then realise it’s not a moped. It’s an ebike. One of these things:

It had a numberplate with “Ebike!” on it, a top box, and at first glance appeared to be a scooter/moped capable of 30mph. The girl riding it was wobbling along in the outside lane of a 40mph DC (because she was turning into a filter lane 1km up the road) at 15mph, with about 20 cars behind her, not able to pass because of a couple of hgvs in lane one.

I don’t know if they’re legal to buy/ride or not, but jesus christ that person is another statistic waiting to happen. 😞

I’ve done several thousand miles on a 125cc motorbike and that felt dodgy on main roads, a 50cc moped must feel bloody horrible. This is another level, riding basically a 15mph moped on main roads like its a motorbike, filtering in traffic etc is only going to end one way, especially as the rider looked like they had very little motorbike riding skills. This bike won’t have needed a CBT either.

Convert. I don’t have a bosch.

I can ride to work with zero input. Infact I could push the pedals back and forth without completing a single revolution and the motor would still take me to 15.5mph

^^ see a woman on in of those some days, it’s quite comical how slow she goes, puzzled drivers queuing behind her as her legs furiously spin 😂
OP surely just has to get used to a different method of commuting?
From the encounters with ebikes I’ve had on my commute, they’re quicker in some places and fair bit slower in others, so just different.
Be quite something if the cops stopped you on a chipped bike – of all the lawbreaking that goes on on the roads unchallenged, to prosecute someone who is trying to be safer, seems quite ridiculous. Laws is laws though eh (except when it comes to driving a car).

Convert. I don’t have a bosch.

I can ride to work with zero input. Infact I could push the pedals back and forth without completing a single revolution and the motor would still take me to 15.5mph

So what model/make is yours. Presume illegal/broken/chipped?

Nope just not torque sensing.

All it wants is to know you’re moving the pedals

It’s a bafang bbs

And hell because it predates the regs I could fit the throttle

It’s a bafang bbs

Ah, so not actually legal then.

Getting ready for the dismissals or being called a “hater” for posting this here. But here goes…

For your BMI you’re better off getting the bus or riding a motorcycle than commuting via ebike.

Says science.

In that study: “Transport Mode Choice and Body Mass Index – Cross sectional and Longitudinal evidence from a European-Wide Study” – in terms of BMI benefits the choice comes out like this, in order:

1) Riders of normal bikes.
2) Walking to work.
3) Bus/public transport (inc. walking to the bus stop/station)
4) Motorbikes.
5) e-bikes
6) Cars

Basically, because you don’t have to push hard on the pedals whilst commuting you’re probably better off walking to the bus stop. (In health terms). Study was based on 10,722 participants (just for those who will discount it out of hand because they don’t like the message).

Of course, for *enjoyment* of your commute that’s a totally different kettle of fish. 🙂

Convert – bafengs can be a legal installation depending what model. the 250W one is legal for UK use

You can buy fully legal e bikes that only cadence sense not torque sense

and I then realise it’s not a moped. It’s an ebike. One of these things:

Yeah, erm….. That’s not an ebike.

Other than that. Spot on 👍

(And illegal on the road if not registered/insured/etc/etc)

Chevy – interesting post. Because this is a cycling forum I think we probably think about this from the wrong angle. Ebikes should maybe not be thought of as a replacement for a bike but as a replacement for a car. If you are happy riding a normal bike to work – a bike without the extra expense and environment aspects of one with a battery, then crack on. But there are plenty that would put up barriers (reasonable and unreasonable) for transfering from their car to a bike. If they were to go to an ebike that is better for all of us. That’s where the real wins are to be had.

It’s a bafang bbs

Ah, so not actually legal then.

No perfectly legal. It’s a bbs02 250watt.

trail_rat

Member
It’s a bafang bbs

Ah, so not actually legal then.

No perfectly legal. It’s a bbs02 250watt.

apart from the bike you put it on is so long and heavy its puts it in the HGV class! 😉

No perfectly legal. It’s a bbs02 250watt.

OK – didn’t realise they did a 250W model. And as you talked about a throttle presume it was manufactured before 2015 or 16 when the regs changed.

Whilst yours maybe legal it does stretch the term ‘pedal assist’ to the limits. Pedal alternative or pedal initiated would seem more appropriate. The bosch/yamaha etc approach does seem more in keeping and ultimately more appropriate. It’ll be the blurred line products and the downright illegal that will anger the general public and make lawmakers twitchy.

Aside – finding the details for the geeky post above I saw that bosch now make a cargo model with more grunt – that has to be the way ahead and even closer to a car alternative.

Empty it’s still under the weight limit.

“In that study: “Transport Mode Choice and Body Mass Index – Cross sectional and Longitudinal evidence from a European-Wide Study” – in terms of BMI benefits the choice comes out like this, in order:

1) Riders of normal bikes.
2) Walking to work.
3) Bus/public transport (inc. walking to the bus stop/station)
4) Motorbikes.
5) e-bikes
6) Cars”

The fact that this study uses BMI as the arbiter of health shows that it’s fundamentally flawed. But even if that was a good way to measure health, can anyone explain why riding a motorbike is better exercise than riding an e-bike? I’ve done the same commute many times on both!

@convert – yep absolutely – if ebike journeys are replacing car journeys then for the rest of us that’s a great thing. For the individual user’s health not so much – but wider benefits are more than welcome. It just needs mass take-up to realise those benefits – as long as it remains a minority thing the benefits will remain marginal (and the environmental benefits from manufacturing are only realised if they’re car *replacements* – not just in addition to…). But broadly I agree with you.

@chiefgrooveguru – was wondering who was going to have a pop at BMI which, despite what a lot of people really want to believe, is a *really good* indicator of not just weight but general health – especially on a population level basis (yeah, how many of us really are rugby players or elite body-builders? Not that many).

Having actually read the study itself – motorbikes, cars and ebikes are pretty much the same (marginal differences, but in the order specified).

The take from that is – if you use motorised or motor-assisted transport of *any* form from your door – then there’s no health benefits. i.e. – walking to the bus stop is generally better for you.

You can try to dismiss it – but that’s actual evidence, rather than just “I reckon”.

And I’ll repeat – it doesn’t take into account enjoyment. 🙂

The take from that is – if you use motorised or motor-assisted transport of *any* form from your door – then there’s no health benefits. i.e. – walking to the bus stop is generally better for you.

Nope – you cannot take that from it at all. Thats extrapolating far too far.

I bet it would an hour’s walk to the bus stop would keep me fitter for sure.

Or I could just cycle.

But then walking back from the bus stop with my shopping might be tough.

As car replacements, they are a good idea and should be applauded. I think I have said before that a lot of the time people here use them to extend the range that they can commute in the same time, with less effort, or cheaper than taking the associated public transport. It helps that there is, still I believe, government assistance for purchasing e-bikes for commuting.

For me (5km commute), I would not consider an e-bike. The journey is too short and quick to warrant one and the initial outlay. If I was living in the suburbs, or somewhere like Sollentuna (i.e. cheaper than central Stockholm, but between 10 and 20km out), then I would consider one for sure if I did not like my commuter bike so much.

Due to the lessfrequent use of motorcycle and e-bike compared to other modes, confidence intervals were wider and mostly not statistically significant

So thats hardly conclusive!

Also as far as I can see the study makes no other measure of fitmness or activity – nor does it have any controls nor does it seem to try to level out the various groups ie where the e bike users fatties anyway?

So while its a piece of data its very flawed

@tjagain – that’s not extrapolation – that’s a conclusion of the study.

It’s a direct line from:
All motorised transport from the door provides practically zero health benefit
Non-motorised transport from the door (walking or bikes) provides some health benefit.

That’s not extrapolation. That’s simple results analysis.

If you have *evidence* to disprove the above, totally happy to read and consume it. 🙂

@tjagain – yep. On conclusivity in *some* parts of the study there’s more work that can be done. But I daresay there’s not much of an appetite to fund another 10,000+ people study.

Cherry picking bits of it in an attempt to trash the whole study (because you don’t like it) doesn’t actually invalidate the conclusions.

There’s always “more to be done”. But at the moment, that’s the best evidence we have (and it ain’t bad). And what does the best evidence we have say??

…oh yeah 🙁

Plus. Again. Enjoyment 🙂

Sorry dude but its a poor study and the conclusions are not robust.

I just glanced thru it and picked out some major flaws.

So basically it proves nothing

All motorised transport from the door provides practically zero health benefit
Non-motorised transport from the door (walking or bikes) provides some health benefit.

impossible to make that conclusion from the study – as its measuring BMI not health.

~the conclusion should be “practically zero reduction in BMI” ~

for example the e bikes could be putting on muscle bulk hence weight not going down!

Oh gawd, someone’s used the “lazy” argument. And its turned into one of those **** tedious threads. Sooooooooo predictable.
Knives out.

I took a rescue dog on, the 6 to 10 miles a day I walk him coupled with commuting by gravel bike meant I was getting fatigued so I started driving again. The ebike allows me to ditch the car again.

“@chiefgrooveguru – was wondering who was going to have a pop at BMI which, despite what a lot of people really want to believe, is a *really good* indicator of not just weight but general health – especially on a population level basis (yeah, how many of us really are rugby players or elite body-builders? Not that many).”

BMI is only a good indicator of obesity or otherwise across a whole population. It does not work across the full range of human builds, regardless of training for athletic pursuits and should never be used on individuals.

I’m not a rugby player or elite bodybuilder but I do enjoy lifting weights. My BMI is 27. If I was genetically large-framed I could easily be this BMI without doing any lifting and still be perfectly healthy. It’s a terrible measure, especially for women with larger frames and hourglass figures who distribute bodyfat well for health.

“Having actually read the study itself – motorbikes, cars and ebikes are pretty much the same (marginal differences, but in the order specified).”

Yes but based on using all three forms of transport to commute the same route (and normal bikes too, and I’ve run it a few times but that’s tiresome) I know it’s complete and utter bollocks.

I’ve never commuted on the e-bike and managed to pedal the route so gently that my heart rate has stayed as low as on the 50cc scooter or in the car. I often pedal the e-bike as hard as the normal bike. I sometimes pedal it a lot harder because it’s so damned quick. As soon as I’m on the flat I can turn the assistance off using the handlebar remote and nothing changes – so I’m doing all the work because I’m above the 15.5mph limit.

There have been a number of studies that actually measured riders’ levels of physical exertion when using e-bikes, and they’ve all found that it’s equivalent to or better than walking. e.g. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01441647.2015.1069907

Walking’s good exercise because it’s low impact and walking anywhere tends to take a long time. I can imagine a very short e-bike commute wouldn’t raise your metabolic rate for long enough to provide much health benefit, but that’s probably not how most people are using them.