Jeez, don’t go for a £3k electric scooter then. That’s mental money.

My scooter only cost £550 so I insured it TPO for £120 a year. No real range anxiety either. Ok I’m 36 not 25, but I wouldn’t have thought a cheap 125 scooter would be more than double for TP cover for a 25 year old.

Just checked on a “2012 Piaggio Typhoon 125cc” for £800 on ebay. Third Party Only costs £525/yr. If I age up and become 35 it’s £293/yr. That’s far more reasonable to the point where I’d actually consider it over an ebike. It could probably be cheaper if I had a garage for overnight parking or owned my home so could put in a ground anchor.

So the question then is what does a 28mph ebike have over a scooter or 15mph ebike? I guess they’re cheaper overall than a new electric scooter but there are plenty of examples that aren’t (looking at you Stromer, Riese and Muller).

chiefgrooveguru

Member
“It apparently does to the OP 😉”

It’s not the weight, it’s mostly something else. It’s the same with the tyre weight obsession – it’s hysteresis losses that matter, not the weight. A wheel is a flywheel, the mass doesn’t lose energy it just stored and release it.

Hysteresis loss concerns rolling resistance, NOT acceleration.

Your premise assumes that all energy put into the wheel is recovered as momentum or lost as rolling resistance – it’s not, braking for one will account for lots of loss, especially on a MTB. A light wheel and tyre is faster to accelerate and to maintain speed as less energy is required to keep spinning that mass around/up.

“Your premise assumes that all energy put into the wheel is recovered as momentum or lost as rolling resistance – it’s not, braking for one will account for lots of loss, especially on a MTB. A light wheel and tyre is faster to accelerate and to maintain speed as less energy is required to keep spinning that mass around/up.”

A lighter wheel and tyre is faster to accelerate – but the difference is marginal when you have a motor to help out, an ebike accelerates very fast if you have strong legs. Once up to speed the wheel mass is immaterial until you use the brakes. But once you’ve braked the motor gets you most of the way up to speed again.

Going back to this: “braking for one will account for lots of loss, especially on a MTB”

Braking for one, for sure. So what is two? Or three?

Gradient
Terrain
conditions
undulation
turning

I’ve no idea why your fixating on this so much Chief

On the flat or down a start gate Ebikes don’t actually accelerate as well as non Ebikes for me. in speed it’s close but I wouldn’t actually call it marginal. Direct response Vs human input plus a non constant assist means their acceleration traits are quite different.

I did look into 125cc scooters/learner bikes but I know from commuting on an 80cc Piaggio years ago that although they are a nippy quick choice they are roughly the same amount as I paid for the Trek (£1299) but need additional dedicated clothing as you are sat still into freezing winter wind blast. The Trek was also 0% over to 2 years which swayed the man maths.
Im going to be changing the ‘region code’ in the next few days to the USA market setting (32kph/20mph) which I think is all the extra I’m looking for. The motor should be okay as there is no physical difference between the markets other than software selection.

Bit daft going for a non-pedal solution, when what’s required is the e-assistance to effectively lower the commute so it’s a sensible distance, ie give you assistance up to higher speed.

I know what the rules are, but the rules are wrong. A way should have been found for people to easily and cheaply prove their safety with an e-CBT or whatever and insure themselves for e-assistance up to 20-25mph. No issues with not being able to go on bridleways.

I’ve looked at this a few times for my 20 mile commute, it just doesn’t work as a replacement for the car as it’s too far to do more than twice a week really and I need to get there quickly so I can be home when the kids are. It’s fine now, I just work form home most days instead.

It’s part of a wider lack of foresight around policy in general. It’s pretty obvious that the best way to get electric transport off the ground is to create some sort of new category of vehicle, sub 200kg, 4 wheels, up to 40mph, driven on a car license, £3-5k. Or whatever the right details are. Get single people in cars out of them and into small nippy light things because they make sense instead of giving Nissan £10k to pay for hundreds of kilos of batteries in a Leaf. Or the Renault Twizzy for £7k.

A way should have been found for people to easily and cheaply prove their safety with an e-CBT or whatever and insure themselves for e-assistance up to 20-25mph.

Can’t they? Of course, they’d have to buy equipment designed, tested and rated for that purpose in the country of use, rather than repurpose lower rated equipment because “they know best” and laws and standards aren’t for them. They need to keep their number plate on, and stay off all these shared pedestrian/cycle lanes that are popping up, for obvious reasons.

Oh the ironing.

Some people could Google s-pedelec

Yes, you can do it now, but not in a way that isn’t disproportionately expensive or difficult. You can see this as it would obviously be a good solution for lots of people, yet next to no one has done it.

Maybe things have changed, but when I looked into it 18 months ago I couldn’t find a local garage that would MOT a s-pedelec for me, so I stopped there. It’s obvious that the MOT requirements shouldn’t be the same as for a car and that they could be done a separate test where a bike shop essentially gives it a once over.

What’s the state of play with insurance? Anyone insured an s-pedelec? Does anyone do a car policy or a house policy that covers these? That would be a way to sort that side of it easily and cheaply.

Does anyone really think having to put a number plate on and ride only on the roads is an issue?

I’m arguing from the point of view that all levels of Government seem to agree that driving cars is a bad thing, yet when there’s a fairly straightforward approach to getting people out of cars available, the options end up being so limited or such a pain in the arse that virtually nobody is e-commuting. It’s a massive missed opportunity.

https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/advice/buying-and-riding-an-s-pedelec-in-the-uk-1637

This is basically saying the same thing.

The problem is that with a bike, your experience and skill generally increases with your ability to go faster. To me this is a very good reason for ebikes to be limited as they are.

If you delimit it and get caught you’d be breaking all sorts of laws (Does your license cover a moped? Are you wearing a motorcycle crash helmet? No insurance, unregistered vehicle, no MOT – doesn’t look good does it?) and could easily lose your driving license etc. If that’s fine for you then fill your boots. If not, have a look at the tyres and potentially your position on it, and go faster as you get fitter. Or sit and chill at 15.5mph.

Im going to be changing the ‘region code’ in the next few days to the USA market setting (32kph/20mph) which I think is all the extra I’m looking for. The motor should be okay as there is no physical difference between the markets other than software selection.

20mph sounds about right Rusty, if that works with the motor. I mean there’s the rules of the road, and then there’s your own safety – you’d hope those two things are generally congruent but sometimes they’re not. Accelerating a bike on the commute past 15 mph and have it suddenly get way harder sounds like a ridiculous (and unsafe) state of affairs. For urban / suburban riding a fast commute is a safe commute and you have to be able to move the bike around the road when needed.

For urban / suburban riding a fast commute is a safe commute and you have to be able to move the bike around the road when needed.

I’ve heard something like that before.

I’m sure it was in reference to making progress and accelerating out of trouble.

Don’t think so trail_rat. Bimble into work at 12 mph then next day get your head down and go in at 20. Notice anything different? The difference in safety, being part of the traffic, and how car drivers treat you is completely obvious.

Don’t think so trail_rat. Bimble into work at 12 mph then next day get your head down and go in at 20. Notice anything different? The difference in safety, being part of the traffic, and how car drivers treat you is completely obvious

You’re absolutely right, everyone on situp and begs pootling along at 8mph here is given a huge berth and treated like a vulnerable road user. Every arse up head down cyclist, me included, is pretty much treated with less concern than the pheasants.

I’d also love to know where you’re all commuting at 20mph and up, in a morning I can’t manage much over 16mph average in the car coming into work so I’m pretty pleased with 15ish over the same on the bike with luggage. (1mi split speeds between 8 and 25mph variously, peak of 39mph, I’m not quick but I’m certainly not slow) FWIW my record commute is an average 22mph going home on the bike, 28 mins door to door, I’ve never managed sub 30 in the car.

Been tempted by an Ebike to avoid the sweatiness. Not so fussed on speed.

Generally prefer the motorbike though as I’m not being over taken all the time. Route to work really isn’t pleasant.

Well on the odd occasion I take my shutter of a 3 speed shopper to town (ie I’m leaving it locked up all day) i find I get significantly fewer close passes , I rarely get squeezed at the traffic islands and people don’t misjudge my speed at junctions. I’m doing the speed they perceive a bike should be doing.

When I’m on my road bike those are many times in the same journey occurances and I have to ride on my toes and be watching for every false move.

Best thing that happened to my commute was I moved offices and now have an entirely traffic free journey on shared paths bar 1 mile from my house to the village.

I’d also love to know where you’re all commuting at 20mph and up

This. Mine is a rolling 12 miler, my PB is 40 minutes (18mph), and that was a bit of a cheat as I’d left early to catch quiet roads and was on my fast bike. 14.5 mph is about average and that’s not hanging around.

I used to commute Rochdale to Manchester, it’s an 800ft descent over 10 miles, so 20 was fairly easy if you set off early and got lucky with the traffic lights. Was a decent jaunt straight out of bed, then I’d go home via Saddleworth for a proper spin.

My average over 10 miles on the commute is 14mph, about 10-12mph for the first half and 20mph average for the 2nd half.

Tried pedalling with the system off tonight and there is huge amounts of drag- I initially thought it decoupled well as the cranks spin backwards freely but this isnt the same as applying pedalling motion through the motor.
It’s 1st generation Steps 6000.

That sounds a bit shit.

The Bosch on the haibike doesn’t suffer this and neither does the bafang. Not tried steps my self.

But I have experianced the drag on the old hub motors it’s horrible like pedaling through treacle

“Tried pedalling with the system off tonight and there is huge amounts of drag”

That is annoying! My 2019 Levo pedals as well as my old non-E full-sus on the flat, so my commuting times have got shorter up all the hills and no longer anywhere else.

The big advantage in commuting on one for me is in strong headwinds and/or tired brain. So many times on a commute home previously, after a crappy day, I’ve wanted to give my bike away.

Now if it’s windy I take my ebike, knowing if it’s blowing a hoolie at home time I can just whack the assistance up and just potter home at leisure. Generally I leave it in Eco, but it’s nice knowing I can just turn a pedal if I’m not feeling it with more assist.

The cut off at 16mph really bothered me at first, but in reality on the flat it’s not much different to my Smuggler now I’m used to it: it sits happily at 18-19mph without assistance. It’s only on an incline where I really feel it, but then up a hill at 16mph is more than I’d be doing on a normal bike most of the time.

I’ve ridden in to work every day apart from two since 1st June (50/50 normal/ebike). I wasn’t more than three times a week previously.

How did the limit get set at 15mph anyway?

Must have been with primary regard to road bikes, but clearly not with the intention of making ebikes a practical option for utility transport or it would have been 20ish-mph.

Type approval for pedelecs is set by EU legislation, so it’s 20 km/h. The thinking behind that seems to be that they’ll primarily be used in urban areas, where average traffic speeds are sloooooow – barely 10mph in some cities.

There is actually a higher category, S-pedelecs, which has been adopted by some countries including Switzerland, Belgium and Czechoslovakia. The Netherlands hasn’t, probably because it’s allowed mopeds on cycle paths for a number of years and it’s one of the main sources of complaints from cyclists, who actually have a bit of lobbying power. And here in the UK, where a lot of cycling infrastructure is also shared use, it’s easy to see why it hasn’t been taken up.

New law will say yes to the 30 mph electric bicycle

I’ve just checked, and on my 9.5kg gravel bike with 47mm tyres (and carrying a 4-5kg rucksack!) I’m sitting at anywhere between 20-30mph on a flat section of my commute.

I’ve not been keeping up to date with who is and isn’t one lately, but this sounds like you should be inducted into the ranks of the Big Hitters.

“Type approval for pedelecs is set by EU legislation, so it’s 20 km/h.“

It’s 25 km/h actually, hence about 15.5 mph.

Yep, my bad.

I’ve not been keeping up to date with who is and isn’t one lately, but this sounds like you should be inducted into the ranks of the Big Hitters.

Calm down, there’s people that think anyone can push an MTB along the flat at 25mph or so and hit over 30 for short periods of time – which I reckon most would struggle with on a derestricted eMTB to be honest!

I’ve not been keeping up to date with who is and isn’t one lately, but this sounds like you should be inducted into the ranks of the Big Hitters.

I didn’t realise being able to sit at 20mph on what is basically a road bike was that big a deal tbh, hell I can do that for (very) short periods on an Mtb. 30mph with a decent tail wind and possibly a percent or two gradient certainly isn’t remarkable.

The rented Shimano PC adaptor turned up today plus £16 for the unlocking software license. As mine is a 1st gen Steps motor the only way to change anything is to alter the wheel size unlike the newer 8000. Bit of fettling tonight and I’m now riding a 700c front wheel with a BMX wheel on the rear! (21mph).
Will report back tomoz evening.

Just hope that you don’t need the warranty 🙂

My friend Bob who looks nothing like me in a wig says that it’s liberating to use bus and cycle lanes where appropriate, then when they inevitably disappear for stretches of a 30mph dual carriageway (wtf city planners?) to be able to take the lane and keep pace with traffic. Bob’s bike likes to cruise at 20mph and it’s a very enjoyable speed but not quite enough to take the lane. Bob thinks you will enjoy your Shimano steps with a little extra on top. Just keep your gears and speed low when around pedestrians, generally don’t be a menace.

My driving to work is taking me around 35minutes without traffic. 20 miles.

My commuting on the bike is anything between 55minutes and 1hour and 15 minutes. Smidge below 18 miles. Weather/wind/feel of the day dependent.

If I’ll be able to drop between 10 and 20 minutes from riding I’ll be more than happy. With 15.5 mph restriction can’t see this happening any time soon. Consistent average of 20 mph would be required…

Cheers!
I.

I hadn’t seen those Bafang motor kits on eBay until just now, but they look like just the job. 750 bonus Watts for your private track to work.

You’re in the same position as me, I have an entire second car for the 2-3 days a week I need to go into the office, I’d bike it if I could cut the journey time rather than just arriving less tired.

This morning’s commute was FAR BETTER, I’m only the odd mph over the 15.5mph and using gearing/torque/cadance to control speed but you don’t have the constant on/off/on/off from the standard restricted motor.

I was considering a Bafang750w but having ridden mine unrestricted the standard 250w is more than enough.

1 month update.
Have been using it every day since I hacked the ‘wheel diameter’ via software to give me a ~23mph cut off limit.

In the mornings my commute is far easier for the same speed as my previous gravel commuting bike and n the evenings when its busier I’ve found my commuting route has gravitated towards the hillier back roads route and away from traffic as climbing isn’t an issue.
The speed difference with traffic is reduced so i don’t feel as vulnerable on some of the tight busy sections of my route.

As a commuting tool its perfect with its built in lights and full mudguards. Might change to 650c wheels and bigger tyres at some point as its a bit harsh with 700c/35c’s and aluminium forks and frame.

I would agree for a skilled rider 20 mph is better and probably safer – but for the average cyclist out there – 10 mph is fast enough given how unskilled many of them are. Laws have to be set for all.