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  • Donald! Trump!
  • ernielynch
    Full Member

    You do realise this is still a thing,

    Yes I do. I am not suggesting that it is either one or the other. It was with reference to people apparently getting excited with regards to the Stormy Daniels payment allegations.

    Read the edit to my previous post for more clarification.

    chewkw
    Free Member

    There’s at least three different entities pursing him for various misdemeanors. Are you suggesting they should coordinate their actions? The very fact that there isn’t such coordination should dispell myths of some great anti-Trump conspiracy 😄

    You mean they are all coincidence?

    Del
    Full Member

    nothing coincidental about a high profile law breaker facing multiple charges from all quarters.

    vlad_the_invader
    Full Member

    You mean they are all coincidence?

    Eh? Trump has been involved in multiple court cases for what seems like the entirety of his career. Previously, no one was interested as he didn’t have the public profile he does now. So it’s nothing unusual for him to be battling various courts for various charges….

    vlad_the_invader
    Full Member

    It was with reference to people apparently getting excited with regards to the Stormy Daniels payment allegations.

    Got it. I, too, would rather he was successfully prosecuted for a “more serious” offence (pref related to Jan 6) but he’s such a slippery bastard I’d settle for this* just in case nothing else sticks.

    * whatever “this” turns out to be when the actual charges are un-sealed. Hopefully, there’s an element of serious tax fraud as well…

    chewkw
    Free Member

    nothing coincidental about a high profile law breaker facing multiple charges from all quarters.

    So not a coincidence then?

    Eh? Trump has been involved in multiple court cases for what seems like the entirety of his career. Previously, no one was interested as he didn’t have the public profile he does now. So it’s nothing unusual for him to be battling various courts for various charges….

    Before, because he was not a politician so nobody was interested but now he is trouble?

    Therefore, they go all out to get Trump deliberately separately?

    To me that sounds like having some sort of coordination. It’s Murica you know.

    Hopefully, there’s an element of serious tax fraud as well…

    Good luck with that coz America is built on it.

    vlad_the_invader
    Full Member

    To me that sounds like having some sort of coordination. It’s Murica you know.

    If you smell some sort of conspiracy, I have no problem with that but I don’t care whether there is or isn’t (though I’m not the sort of person who’s drawn towards conspiracy theories anyway).

    Sure, a lot of career-minded individuals in important positions probably realize this may be the moment to make a name for themselves (but that’s not unique to Trump)

    thols2
    Full Member

    Makes you think.

    tomhoward
    Full Member

    breatheeasy
    Free Member

    So why is he being pursued over minor stuff which could possibly play into his tiny hands?

    Rumours are that there are almost 30 counts in the idictment. At most there could be about 8 of them related to the Stormy Daniels case so I think they’ve got a lot more on him than a simple ‘avoided tax on a dodgy payment’.

    dissonance
    Full Member

    Makes you think

    He really is the perfect example of poes law.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    Sedition carries a maximum sentence of 20 years, just go for that, the evidence must surely be overwhelming? Simple and straightforward I would have thought. If it isn’t there is something seriously wrong with the judicial system imo.

    I have absolutely no idea if this is the case but it occurred to me that as at the time of the attempted insurrection Trump was commander-in-chief this might in affect mean that he was subject to military law.

    If this is the case then a court-martial would seem to be appropriate. I think that the maximum sentence a US military court can impose for sedition is death.

    Okay I appreciate that I am entering the realms of fantasy but there is no harm in imagining the worse case possible scenario with regards to Trump’s punishment.

    Currently he doesn’t seem to be suffering that much with apparently a huge fundraising boost and his foes within the Republican Party rallying behind him.

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    the evidence must surely be overwhelming

    So you keep saying, but unless there’s a smoking gun that I don’t know about, I’ve not yet seen anything that indicates he can be shown to have directly instigated what happened, to satisfy a jury beyond a reasonable doubt to guarantee a conviction.

    I’m sure he wanted it to happen, I’m sure his words were taken to encourage it to happen, but proving it legally, I’m not sure they have enough to risk running it, and risk failing.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    unless there’s a smoking gun that I don’t know about,

    I am sorry I didn’t realise there was any doubt that the mob of Trump supporters that attacked the United States Capitol Building in Washington, to stop a joint session of the United States Congress, did so because they were incited to do so by Trump.

    The idea that it had nothing to do with Trump’s speech sounds totally bizarre to me.

    I thought that Trump’s speech inciting people to rebel against the authority of the state provided overwhelming evidence.

    As I say, if it is not that straightforward then there is something wrong with the jucial system imo.

    Edit: In December, a congressional committee filed an 845-page report on the insurrection at the White House on 6 January 2021.

    They concluded that Mr Trump and his allies had a “multipart plan to overturn the 2020 presidential election”, including the attack on the Capitol.

    Is that ^^ the smoking gun that you were looking for?

    dissonance
    Full Member

    Is that ^^ the smoking gun that you were looking for?

    Not really. He is a one trick pony but is very good at being vague about things and mostly hinting rather than giving direct instructions.
    So did he cheerlead and incite them?
    In casual conversation I would go with yes but in the beyond reasonable doubt and courtroom level evidence I think I would have to go with not beyond reasonable doubt.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    According to the congressional committee, and their 845-page report, there is sufficient evidence , they recommended that Trump be indicted on four criminal charges.

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    they recommended that Trump be indicted on four criminal charges.

    Which is not the same as overwhelming evidence that will guarantee a conviction. I hope he goes down for it, but I’m not sure he will.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    Okay fair enough maybe not for you but for me it is overwhelming :

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/dec/23/the-17-findings-in-the-january-6-committees-final-report

    Some of it, such as points 9 and 11, is either factually correct or not factual correct. It should be quite simple to establish in a court what is factually correct.

    The congregational committee didn’t seem to have a problem and stated it as fact.

    frankconway
    Full Member

    Where is Binners when one of his graphics is needed?
    Some posters are incredibly tedious – and have been for too long on threads about UK politics – but seem to think that linking to other people’s words lends weight to their posts.
    Are they as tedious in real life? Assuming, of course, they have a real life.

    Yawn.

    vlad_the_invader
    Full Member

    @ernielynch
    If he gets tried for sedition, and if you and I were on the jury, I think it’s highly likely that we would vote him guilty. But, for whatever reason, the wheels of justice are turning very slowly in the DOJ. I’m hoping they are building a watertight case but equally, they might be bricking it because of potential fall-out and are just kicking the can down the road hoping the problem goes away…

    thols2
    Full Member

    for whatever reason, the wheels of justice are turning very slowly in the DOJ

    From what I understand, Merrick Garland is a very methodical guy. He will want to make sure that any charges they eventually bring are backed up by solid evidence and the case isn’t dismissed because of silly mistakes. Yes, everyone knows that Trump incited an insurrection, but that’s not actually evidence that will stand up in court. What they need to do is to go through untold thousands of emails, text messages, video clips, etc. and collect evidence that he knew the effect his words were having and that he wanted a violent uprising, not a peaceful demonstration. That will be backed up with interviews of key witnesses, etc. It takes a huge amount of time to put all that together.

    Just because those are the most serious charges doesn’t mean that he shouldn’t also be charged with any other less serious charges in other jurisdictions. The NY case is totally unrelated to the Georgia case and the insurrection case. They are all being investigated by different people in different places so charges in one case aren’t being traded off for charges in another.

    Pauly
    Full Member

    From what I’m reading the Georgia charges are very serious as he was recorded trying to coerce a state election official into “finding” home 13,000 votes.
    Then there are also rumours that his accountant of 30 years has flipped. The accountant kept double books, has already been found guilty and is currently serving 5 months in Rikers Island, and is now facing new charges.

    While the wheels of justice are turning slowly they’re going to catch up with him in the end, and whilst it may prove a boost to his base and his fundraising a lot of Americans are seeing him for what he is. The constant drip drip of info will erode support from the more rational GOP voters leaving only a fanatical base who will eventually do something really stupid a là Timothy McVeigh which will backfire spectacularly on Trump.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    Just because those are the most serious charges doesn’t mean that he shouldn’t also be charged with any other less serious charges in other jurisdictions.

    No, but as the less serious charges won’t necessarily bar him from standing in the next presidential election in which he is currently the front runner for the Republican nomination, and that the announcement of imminent charges has so far resulted in a $4 million fundraising boost and all his staunch opponents within the GOP rallying behind him, all without the certainty that he won’t be acquitted, is it really something to get particularly excited about? Forgive me if I’m not.

    but equally, they might be bricking it because of potential fall-out and are just kicking the can down the road hoping the problem goes away…

    Politically, the biggest problem appears to be that Republican supporters will see the latest developments as part of a witch hunt, especially as the very serious charges against Bill Clinton never amounted to anything.

    The less serious the allegations the more it starts looking like a witch hunt. Calling for the overthrow of the government and fermenting violence is in a class of its own, even senior Republicans were appalled.

    If they are worried about the fallout of pursuing the case the prosecution could, I would have thought, perhaps just call for him to be barred from all future elections.

    I agree that the wheels of justice are turning very slowing, altogether there are five criminal and civil investigations currently into Trump, it’s been over three months since the congressional committee released their 845-page report and called for Trump to be indicted on criminal charges, and he has yet to appear in front of a judge.

    thols2
    Full Member

    is it really something to get particularly excited about?

    An ex-president indicted on criminal charges. Yes, that’s something to get excited about. It has never happened before.

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    the announcement of imminent charges has so far resulted in a $4 million fundraising boost

    Excellent – as already stated, it strengthens his position in the GOP, and weakens it with the wider electorate. Biden got in mainly on an “anyone but Trump” ticket and those swing voters are unlikely to go back to a Trump facing legal battles, or a party that supported him.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    those swing voters are unlikely to go back to a Trump facing legal battles, or a party that supported him.

    Ah, that’s good news.

    thols2
    Full Member

    swing voters are unlikely to go back to a Trump facing legal battles

    He’s trying to run for president, but the voters that he needs to impress are constantly reminded of his sleaze and corruption. Nobody can really keep track of all the scandals he’s generated, they just blur together, so reminding people of the specific things will be a constant drag on his campaign.

    CountZero
    Full Member

    As I say, if it is not that straightforward then there is something wrong with the jucial system imo.

    There is, many judges are gifted with jobs for life, and are frequently political appointees, often by Republicans. You only have to look at one particular Supreme Court judge, and the political activities of his wife to see that there’s nothing bipartisan about the court.

    hightensionline
    Full Member

    https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=aa3410

    Just about to touch down at LaGuardia Airport.

    footflaps
    Full Member

    35,000 Police on standy by!

    The New York City Police Department, state law enforcement agencies, the Secret Service and the U.S. Marshals Service have all been coordinating efforts, while increasing intelligence gathering and mobilization. The police, for instance, sent a stand-ready order to about 35,000 officers, a force larger and better trained than some national armies.

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    Good job he’s not got form for organising mass protests….

    Northwind
    Full Member

    I love that his legal team applied to refuse cameras access to the court as it’d create a “circus”. Mate, it’s your performing elephant and his monkey pals and clown lawyers that do that.

    vlad_the_invader
    Full Member

    I love that his legal team applied to refuse cameras access to the court as it’d create a “circus”.

    Typical tactic of Trump. Will do anything to frustrate justice as long as possible. I’m half expecting him to feign an illness next…

    thols2
    Full Member

    frankconway
    Full Member

    Given trump’s recent posts about the judge and the ‘kangaroo court’ followed by his recent outburst about Jack Smith, I would say the odds are shortening on the judge imposing a gagging order on the orange one.

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    Edit: In December, a congressional committee filed an 845-page report on the insurrection at the White House on 6 January 2021.

    They concluded that Mr Trump and his allies had a “multipart plan to overturn the 2020 presidential election”, including the attack on the Capitol.

    Is that ^^ the smoking gun that you were looking for?

    You have to bear in mind that these things are partisan. The Democrats wrote a report, and had the majority so it became the official version of events.

    Is it true – probably
    Is it biased – there’s certainly credence given that wouldn’t pass a beyond reasonable doubt test. To use the “smoking gun” analogy, a government report that Saddam Hussein has WMD’s wasn’t the smoking gun. It’d be like having the Labour party investigate Boris’s parties, or the Tory’s investigate Anti-Semitism. The conclusions would probably right, but the reports probably wouldn’t be impartial.

    Essentially it’s the basis of the prosecution’s dossier in any potential court case. It’s not the defense.

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    All five criminal and civil investigations currently taking place into Trump’s behaviour/affairs are ultimately responsible to Democrat politicians.

    For obvious reasons Republican politicians are generally reluctant to get involved in investigating the former Republican president (the congressional committee had 2 Republican members to the Democrats 7) and generally dismiss the investigations as politically motivated.

    Which to be fair has an element of truth, I imagine most people see that. However the more serious and recent the allegations then the less it looks politically motivated and more it appears as pursuing justice.

    I wouldn’t be too quick to dismiss the significance of the congressional committee’s findings into the insurrection at the White House on 6 January 2021.

    MSP
    Full Member

    Given trump’s recent posts about the judge and the ‘kangaroo court’ followed by his recent outburst about Jack Smith, I would say the odds are shortening on the judge imposing a gagging order on the orange one.

    At the Alex Jones trial recently, I found it hard to believe that the human cockroach didn’t spend time behind bars for contempt. But ultimately I think the judge played him just right and allowed him to tie a noose round his own neck.

    Trump always believes he is the smartest guy in the room, despite the evidence. I don’t think he will be able to control himself and the more he is forced to testify the more he will condemn himself. His l legal teams biggest challenge IMO is going to be keeping him from opening his mouth and letting his stupidity spew fourth into the court.

    vlad_the_invader
    Full Member

    All five criminal and civil investigations currently taking place into Trump’s behaviour/affairs are ultimately responsible to Democrat politicians.

    Point of order! I believe the Georgia “I only need 12,000 votes” investigation is Republican-lead, hence the RINO jibe (though happy to be proven wrong if not)

    matt_outandabout
    Full Member

    34 charges.
    Hmm.

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