@kayak23
There’s loads on the internet about Cesar Milan and his methods being outdated at best and dangerous and cruel at worst. Here is one example:
https://medium.com/@vandanni.hadai/cesar-millan-the-problem-with-his-approach-and-the-future-of-dog-training-49dd8cddb391

benton?

JESUS CHRIST, FENTON!!!

I’ve had several retired greyhounds and rescued lurchers. While I could get them really to have good control in classes and a more controlled environment with their tastiest treats once we were out and something got their attention even a dripping fresh roast chicken wouldn’t have worked. It’s in their nature to chase and it had been encouraged before I got them.

We just had to be incredibly careful where we let them run free and obviously never near any areas where there were stock. The one thing that did help if we were caught out (and that could be a plastic bag flapping in a hedge) was to run the opposite direction wailing and flapping our arms like a nutter and even dropping to the floor with that carry on. They’d come running pressumably thinking WTF! And then we’d reward, never chastise.

I miss my dogs, where I live now in Shetland dogs are practically demonized by the crofters and there are few places you can safely let them run free. In my work I get nothing but grief about irresponsible dog owners, people not realising that the dog making sheep run and scatter is actually worrying, not just being attacked.

If you can’t keep your dog under close control please keep it on a lead and do every other dog owner a favour. Or let them run free in a suitable area.

We have a Spanish podenco cross rescue, their hunting dog breed, & with a lot of work he’s now a very pleasant boy, not perfect, but it’s been a long long road & simply it’s down to you to do the work, there no instant fix. Go get expert help to guide you, & have reasonable expectations.

My partner, who now become sucked into dog training, suggest contacting a local behaviourist from IMDT Might be a helpful start (not suggesting their the best or only organisation that could help)

@kayak23
There’s loads on the internet about Cesar Milan and his methods being outdated at best and dangerous and cruel at worst. Here is one example:
https://medium.com/@vandanni.hadai/cesar-millan-the-problem-with-his-approach-and-the-future-of-dog-training-49dd8cddb391

Thanks. Interesting reading. I’ll pass that link on to the other half. She likes to watch Cesar as she likes to watch pretty much anything with dogs in it. She certainly doesn’t use any of the dominance techniques that article claims but perhaps more cherry-picks what she’s happy with for our dog.
I’ll have a bit more of a read up about him. 👍

No worries. CM got a lot of negative press and his TV was cancelled so perhaps he changed his ways. I’m sure he does some things right too so no harm in watching his cherry-picked shows. Good to be aware though.

Reading with interest. Our dog is also a rescue, from Spain, we’ve had him just over a year now, and his recall is good. It helped that he’s really food-driven (we assume he was scavenging for a while, as when we first got him he would eat ANYTHING), so it was pretty easy training him with treats. He also doesn’t tend to range when he’s off the lead, he’s about ten now and just plods along, and doesn’t generally GAF about any other animals; we’ve had him (always on a lead, obvs) near sheep, pigs, horses, cows, chickens, geese, it’s as if they’re not even there.

Because of that still-strong food drive, if he gets the whiff of, I dunno, a dropped sausage roll, then he’s not going to come back, because he knows that sausage roll is much better than treat he’ll get if he comes back. In that case though, it’s normally easy enough to just wait till he’s eaten whatever it is, or go over to him and stick him on the lead.

However, out walking earlier this week, he was off the lead behind me, and I saw a couple of hares about 50ft away in front of me. They legged it, obviously, soon way out of sight. He then padded past me, got what I assume was a whiff of them and went MENTAL; legging it round like a spaniel, nose to the ground, running off in the direction the hares went (and a good distance away at that), running back, off again, he was really, really agitated and there was no way he was coming back, his head had clearly ‘gone’. This went on for a good five minutes, and I only managed to get him as at one point he circled round back past me and I managed to grab him. I won’t lie, it gave me a bit of a scare, I’ve never seen him like that.

The bored thing is key. We have had loads of spaniels. You need to be engaged with them on their walks if you’re out in the countryside as there’s plenty of other stuff that they find interesting other than just running alongside you. I lose count of the people I see walking their dog chatting to their mate whilst the dog runs amok or people on the phone walking the dog and the dog off chasing birds, deer, kids etc. You need to engage with the dog mentally on a walk not just walk/ run it to exhaustion. The dog basically needs to have more fun with you that it would chasing deer. You can do this by having it off the lead but challenging it repeatedly by calling it back, sending it off (not too far), hiding a ball at the side of the path rather than lobbing it miles into the undergrowth where birds nest and deer may lay up.

Anyone who thinks it’s fun to let their dog chase deer or ignore it is either trolling or just plain dumb. No more needs saying on that.

Training dogs is tough and it’s not the fun part of dog ownership that you or the kids think!

JESUS CHRIST, FENTON!!!

apologies. poor recall…

Electric shock collars were going to be banned in england in 2018. dunno if the legislation every got passed. Banned in Wales in 2010 and in Scotland are banned

Banned in Wales legal in England and Scotland.

Do you fancy testing that in court?

I would have no issue with that. The law your quoting is about causing unnecessary pain and the do not “condone” e-collars.

As I have said, if used properly they should not be causing pain at all, simply a stimulus and discomfort to the point you turn the dog away from its prey drive.
I fully accept that they can cause a pain if used extremely. Once they have been used successfully then there is no need to keep using it.

I was at a shoot once and a guy used a collar as a punishment, it was taken from him and left in a river.

There will always be difference in opinions here, I’m simply stating what’s what for the OP, if you don’t like collars , don’t use them.

If you use any form of negative reinforcement it will unravel at some point; often resulting in a bad mannered dog who may snap at some point. Positive reinforcement and reward is the only way to get lasting and satisfying results.

When used correctly the dog is conditioned to the collar as a positive reinforcement. You are using the collar to gain the dogs attention. Positive reinforcement follows immediately.

Been doing loads of homework on their proper use as I may have to use mine.
Dogs been wearing it on and off but it hasn’t even been charged up yet.
It won’t get used until I’m happy that the dog won’t be negatively affected by it’s use.
This is purely to turn him away from his prey drive and stop him chasing / tracking when he’s not supposed to.

It’s pretty uncomfortable knowing a dog will track across ploughed fields or motorways with no other thought in his head.

Strangely he is broken to sheep and cattle ! lol little bugger. Hates peacocks mind.

go on, have a think about that scenario and get back to me

Erm, nope, don’t see what you’re driving at.

The law about dogs chasing deer basically states it’s only illegal if it proven it was carried out deliberately.

They are NOT legal in Scotland. Absolutly not. Read the quoted piece.

Again – chasing deer thing – illegal whether intentional or not. You are confusing the anti hunting legislation which does have that proviso with other law around animals which does not. for example your dog MUST be under control at all times.

They are not illegal in Scotland

<blockquoteI have a Karelian Bear Dog from Finland that are used for hunting deer, boar and bears.

He stays on a lead 99% of the time as no command’s/shouts/whistle/promises of cheese get through that prey drive when it cuts in.

This – you have bought a hound / hunting dog, that has been bred for many generations to chase and hunt things…
We have an English Pointer – who has all the same problems. He will chase anything – bees, leaves, little animals, the cat down the road, and mostly squirrels.
His recall is awful – but slowly getting better. We using a training lead (20m) to walk him, so he can run around a lot – and we can practise recall with him. But it is little steps.
There is no food that can break the thrill of the hunt n seek. He distinctly has two body languages – being a pet ( where his ears go back and he wags his tail) and hunt – ears up , tail between legs, or straight out – and he will not respond to anything.
Next stage will be a gun-dog trainer – he is a bright dog – just very wilful.

We take him to as safe field once a week – so he can run, and hunt, and run and hunt, and run and hunt for an hour. And we know we can get him back.

But also time is a big factor – under 6 months and they do not really see you as being the meaning of their life. Over that and the risks of buggering off do get balanced against doing a runner …

They are not illegal in Scotland

Well the scottish government think they are and have made guidence to the legislation that makes it clear that their use is illegal.

so you are simply wrong on this.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/electric-shock-collars-dogs-banned-scotland-590688

https://www.gov.scot/publications/guidance-dog-training-aids/

That Scottish government note doesn’t actually state shock collars are illegal. It states it is guidance and their use could be considered in prosecution, that does not equate with being illegal.

They are not illegal in Scotland. You are wrong

Pedantic. Its clear that their use is illegal. ie it breaches the other acts as its animal cruelty and the guidence makes that clear. IE there is no excuse for using them

Ms Cunningham said she had made the decision after listening to the concerns that had been raised – particularly over the ready availability on the internet of cheap devices which can be bought by anyone and used to deliver painful electric shocks.

She added: “I have decided to take steps to effectively and promptly ban their use in Scotland.

“Causing pain to dogs by inappropriate training methods is clearly completely unacceptable and I want there to be no doubt that painful or unpleasant training for dogs will not be tolerated”.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-42807728

Their use is Brads – read what the scottish government says.

You could and would be prosecuted for their use. that is 100% clear.

Just because you want something to be legal does not mean it is

Same as not having your dogs under control is illegal

Same as causing distress to wildlife ( ie accdentally chasing deer) is illegal

Had a border collie cross that used to do this when out with the bike. I used to have just sit down and wait for him to come back from chasing deer. Guess he always wondered why I didn’t join in.

Even shooting uk knows they are banned

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/news/electric-dog-training-collars-banned-in-scotland-97777

Their use is Brads – read what the scottish government says.

Easy win available, can you show the relevant legislation banning their use rather than press announcements or guidance notes.

There is no specific ban. What has been done is by using the guidance making it clear that their use is illegal under existing law.

Read the quotes FFS. Its in black and white. The scottish government says so, the kennel club agrees, shooting UK agrees.

We’re currently on exactly the same part of training with our rescue spaniel.

When we first let her off the lead her recall was most excellent as she (according to our behaviourist) has become more confident in herself as she’s settled in her recall has gone to pot. She now only gets off the lead when we are at the beach.

Days like this feel very far away at the moment.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CFpJuDoMzEC/

Given Roseanna Cunningham is very local to me, I better not a) use a shock collar b) let my hound chase the local deer population through her garden!
So I am picking up a bit of a theme here (bit slow perhaps like my dog), I/we need to invest more time and energy in the training. The idea that we will walk along the river Earn whilst ‘Rafi’ sniffs around within an acceptable range and if he gets a sniff of deer/hare we will whistle/call him and he will dutifully fight against his prey drive and return to us is perhaps unrealistic. I/we need to resign ourselves to several nmonths/years of training which may ultimately result in keeping him on the lead at all times.
Irrespective of the legality issue, shock collars are a no no as they are inhumane, may be counter-productive. I just have this nagging thought that if we can provoke a pavlovian response to certain situations we may save us and him from a huge amount of pain long term. Not saying I am going to go down that route.

Yet msp’s think they’re not illegal yet.

17th June 2020
Electric dog collars could be banned in Scotland as MSPs pass bill

Kennel club say something similar

Kennel Club urges cross-party collaboration in Scotland to fully ban cruel shock collars
Published on 15 June 2020 at 11:16am

In my original post I said that shock collars are (indirectly) illegal in Scotland. This is true in that their use is potentially illegal. The Scottish Government is instructing courts to consider that their use may constitute an offence of causing unnecessary suffering under the Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006. So yes, the collars themselves are not banned, but use of them is likely to be seen as a criminal offence by the courts.

Being pedantic serves no purpose here, if a police officer sees you using a shock collar, you could end up in court for it. You pendency will not get you acquitted.

But, should it be their legality, or lack of, that helps you to decide if they are an appropriate training aid? The British Veterinary Association says:

Research has shown that the application of an electric shock to dogs or cats, even at a low level, can cause physiological and behavioural responses associated with stress, pain, and fear

The only organisations that support their continued use are field sports and gamekeeper associations and they are hardly the last bastions of animal welfare excellence.

Their use is Brads – read what the scottish government says.

Their use is not illegal. You are wrong.

“causing unnecessary suffering to a protected animal”

Collars do not cause unnecessary suffering unless they are used in a complete wrong manner.
Same as a stick, rolled up newspaper or a hand.

They are not illegal. Quite simple really can’t understand why you can’t work that out.

they are inhumane

No they aren’t They can be if wielded by a ****.

I understand folk don’t like them, they can usually be spotted by ignoring every other single piece of text I’ve posted about how to use them correctly, but that’s moot.

The OP asked for info, I gave them some.

I appreciate the info Brads.
Whatever happens there is no way we would do the shock collar thing ourselves we would get a pro to do it. However at present I am minded to re-focus on the training.

When we first let her off the lead her recall was most excellent as she (according to our behaviourist) has become more confident in herself as she’s settled in her recall has gone to pot. She now only gets off the lead when we are at the beach.

That was us exactly. I am now told all we were doing was reinforcing his prey drive.

Brads – yes they are – go on – PM me your name and address and I’ll report you for animal cruelty ( which is what you are doing) and then we can get it tested in the courts.

causing unnecessary suffering to a protected animal

is exactly what you are doing

their use is illegal. Thats it.

The OP asked for info, I gave them some.

Wrong info

I also have a 2.5 year old gsp, and know all about their deafness as soon as she smells a pheasant.
It is difficult trying to find anything which is more appealing to them as the hunt but I have a ball on a rope, a hunting dummy, a ball and treats on me, so she doesn’t know what she get if she comes to me.
The problem is nothing is as good as a live pheasant, I have even tried training with a dead bird but she is not interested in them at all, didn’t even want to pick it up.

She has always been called by a whistle However,I am presently working on an stop and look at me whistle now.
Which is starting to work but has to be constant. It is always worth seeing the danger before they do, and never letting them occupy themselves for too long, before giving them something todo for you.

Most dogs aren’t interested in a live animal, they are interested in chasing a live animal. The thrill is the chase.

Difficult to always have a live bird in your back pocket. Although I have considered it.
What you don’t want to be is the person who takes away the fun, you want to be a better source of fun than the bird who just flew away anyway.

It’s always going to be hard, as someone has said above, you’re trying to train out hundreds of years of breeding and instinct.
I think it’s why dogs like MTBing so much, you’re going at their pace, over rough ground with the thrill of the chase.

I think it’s why dogs like MTBing so much, you’re going at their pace, over rough ground with the thrill of the chase.

It also adds something extra for the human, no switching off ever while the dog is loose. It is mentally tiring for the new trail-dog owner. I can manage around 10km at a pedestrian pace whilst Bodie is learning and ageing. Around 2 years down the line I may get to concentrate on going quickly through features but for the minute I need to know where he is and what may be about to distract him.

Erm, nope, don’t see what you’re driving at.

Oh right, this. Well (apart from the fact I was taking the piss to start with, you know, there was an emoji?), put simply, when deer run away, you (and the dog come to that) really really can’t catch them. Let alone check on their wellbeing.

However at present I am minded to re-focus on the training.

We have an all-purpose ’emergency stop’ command. Our dog will stop whatever it is up to and do this (a lie ‘DOWN’) command. We have also a whistle version of that command. It stops any undesirable behaviour. You then have the attention of the dog and you can try a recall.

Years of repetition and reward.

Keep at it 🙂

@tjagain

You are claiming your (wrong) opinion as law. No point discussing it any further.