I finally gave in to the family and we got a dog during lockdown last Spring. I don’t regret it as he’s great. He’s big and boisterous and great with the kids and around the house and terrified of the cats. So far so good. We started out walking him on a lead and then started to let him off as he was desperate to be with us and we felt it was safe to do so. I was able to run with him and was starting to take him on half decent mountain bike rides up to 15-20km.
Then he started to notice that there are deer everywhere. At first it was inquisitive sniffs which turned into disappearing after them. Now we can’t let him off the lead at all as he always gets a scent or sees a deer and is off. Have done some sets of dog training which were fun but didn’t solve the lack of recall, nothing seems to knock him out of that prey drive.
So what do we do? I want to be able to walk/run/bike with him off the lead but I dare not let him run round the country-side chasing deer (doesn’t bother sheep, cows, horses btw.)
Do we go down the route of a shock collar? Do I just need to do the training better and for longer? Do I give up and accept that that is his nature and I need to keep him on a lead?

I guess I ought to add he is a Romanian rescue dog probably about 3 yrs old and has had the chop.

Shock collars are illegal in Wales and (indirectly) illegal Scotland and legislation is being dragged through in England to make them illegal. All for very good reason. That is not your solution.

https://www.bva.co.uk/take-action/our-policies/electric-shock-collars-and-training-aids/

The last one and kick yourself in the nuts for suggesting a shock collar when all he’s doing is following his nature, you going to fit shock collars to your kids necks for when they leave the lights on after themselves or sticky fingerprints over every surface? It may be something he grows out of but it could be that he wont and that strong scent drive will always be there. You’ve gotta take the good with the bad and some dogs with their natures just can’t be left off the lead, count how many beagles you see not on a lead.

Training.

Shock collar…. WTF.

Sister and BIL can’t let their lab off the lead as no recall, similar age and done – tried lots of training. Lovely dog, but no recall.

Watch Dogs behaving very badly. He’s always doing stuff with recall.
Also, Cesar Milan is a good source for training tips.

benton?

OP

kick yourself in the nuts for

also measuring the bloody distance you take the dog. That really annoys me.
My GSP used to do the running after deer thing. Best thing is to just go home, they find their way back eventually 😆

Not that I am advocating a shock collars but I thought the idea was that you use it a couple of times. They have a bell/ringing then vibrating and then an electric shock. Ideally you use the electric shock in training along with the bell and vibrating which then makes the need for shock redundant.
Or is it more evil than that?

We got a Bluetick Coonhound when we lived in Canada and he’s with us in the UK now. He’s breed to lock onto a scent and chase, but not harm things. He’s pretty big (40kgs+) and super strong. He wants to play (chase) sheep, other dogs and deer. He doesn’t have an aggressive nature but is pretty intimidating. He’s great with other dogs but we can’t let him off the lead on virtually any walk near animals. Our other dog (collie) has great recall and is off the lead on most walks. We’ve just accepted his nature and plan off lead walks to avoid animals (hard where we live). I did consider a shock collar (legal in Canada but I didn’t think they were here) but couldn’t bring myself to electrocute him. Good luck with however you decided to deal with it.

Something to think about – especially if you have kids I guess…. is it’s not just the moment when he goes running off that is the issue. The success of any training is consistency and the dog knowing it’s place in the pecking order. As well as doing the right thing on your walks and runs you need to have the right relationship all the time.

my pal had problems with his dog’s recall failing (despite normally being good) and it boiled down to his kids inviting the dog up onto furniture as part of a game they played – when they were doing that it was changing the relationship the dog has with the family and eroding authority with everyone for things like recall. For him the solution was really training his kids rather than the dog.

Dogs want to know their place so have a mind for that, and think about things like you or the kids giving the dog ‘your’ food and so on. Dogs generally want to do the right thing but they need clarity on what the right thing is

Don’t forget he is a rescue, so you’ll never get some habbits out of them. Training, by a professional, or keep him on the lead.

So, now we have the collar issue out the way, here is my more productive input.

Put the dog on lead, walk him the where prey is. As soon as he sees something and lifts his nose, give him a telling off. Nothing physical but don’t be afraid of being very clear that he is wrong. Stern voice, get in his face. Then walk him away. Do that two or three times then go home. Then get some rope or longer lead and repeat but pull him back close to you. It is important you respond instantly, he reacts to prey, you react to hom, that same second. Just keep going. Always have high reward treats to hand and, the first time he ignores prey, reward instantly with treats. And repeat, and repeat. Extend the lead, and repeat.

I accept it may be hard to do this as his prey is deer, do you have a local deer farm or deer park where you can ask permission to train?

Take high value treats on every walk and recall him every few minutes, even when you don’t need to. Keep repeating and high value reward every single time. Then stretch distances out, let him run 10m, 25m, 50m, 100m then call back. Every time he is less than perfect, wind things back to the previous stage.

I did this for my dog who used to be interested in sheep but has to have an annual pass/fail stock test. It worked for my dog. It might work for yours.

Good luck

Dear me.

Anyway, without the outrage from folk who have likely never encountered this issue before.

An e-collar can be a great tool IF used properly. They should never ever be used as a punishment, that defeats what you are trying to achieve.

Something like a Dogtra is a high quality training tool that is perfectly legal and when used correctly is highly effective.

Many will get very emotive, because they assume e-collars are simply a punishment to hurt dogs, that is utter rubbish.

The dog should be introduced to the collar using minimal settings simply to attract the dogs attention and serious praise should be used when they turn towards you (instantly releasing the collar) This then progresses to simple recall using the collar to turn the dog onto your command.

The prey drive can be overcome using a method where the collar is used and slowly turned up until you break the dogs attention from the prey, again instantly releasing the collar and using priase to call the dog.

Read up on them and research their proper use.

Ignore the emotion, sometimes it can be life or death for a dog so they can and should be used where required.

I have a Teckel at the moment who is not praise or treat driven in any way, and will track deer for many miles. Or squirrel, magpies anything furry, or anything that flies.
If I cannot break that prey drive when he is not working I absolutely will use my collar.
I’d rather that than the dog be run over or lost.

(indirectly) illegal Scotland

Absolutely not. Not illegal in England either.

I found this article when we were considering a collar. Gives an interesting perspective.

https://www.outsideonline.com/2411854/dog-shock-collar-training-experience

brads
Full Member
Dear me.

Anyway, without the outrage from folk who have likely never encountered this issue before.

How did people train dogs before they could remotely electrocute them?

Kikopup do some good videos on recall and many other things.
Cesar Milan has been widely discredited and no one should take any notice of what he says.

Life would be a lot better for most people if all dogs were kept on a 1m lead and muzzled at all times when outdoors.

Do you live at the Crook? Who did you go to for training?

What’s the take on spray collars? Still frowned upon?

Cesar Milan has been widely discredited and no one should take any notice of what he says.

Really? My other half watches a lot of his videos. Seems fairly harmless. 🤔

So the theory is that shock collars are okay because you get them subtly adjusted to experiencing pain until you turn it up far enough that it hurts enough to snap them away from what you can’t train them to do, if you’re okay with that crack on. Life or death for the dog, no the dog wants to chase deer, a fairly natural instinct for many breeds, and the owner wants to stop it so he can roam where and when he wants. Or rather than causing another creature pain (even if it small as you say) the owner could just either try to train the behaviour out or you know keep it on a lead and commit to the ownership of the dog that they have agreed to. Similar to a marriage, in sickness and in health, for good or for bad!

Yeah apologies for mentioning distance of ride…..
Don’t live in The Crook any more, now about 20 miles away.
Perhaps I need to go back to square one with the training.

Whatever you decide to do feel free to ignore the pop-psychology dominance stuff. Dogs are not wolves. If your dog goes after a deer it’s nothing to do with whether or not it’s allowed on the sofa.

You might find that training to a whistle can help as the high pitched noise is better than the human voice at grabbing the dog’s attention from whatever is more interesting.

To be honest I’m quite happy for our collie to give the local deer a bit or exercise. It’s funny if they don’t run because then she is totally confused. But if we don’t want her to chase them the trick is to be alert to the situation and call her back early. If we say no as soon as she picks up the scent she’s fine but trying to call her back when she’s at full tilt is always going to be tricky.

The key, as always, is persistence. You can train them to ignore anything as long as you keep reinforcing the “good” behaviour. Ours will ignore the chickens, won’t look at a sheep and gives cattle a wide berth. All done by repeatedly exposing her to the situation (on a lead at first) and giving her treats when she does what you want. Certainly never felt the need to shock her.

Cesar Milan has been widely discredited

@kayak23 Specially selected subjects that are amenable to his methods appear on the show. Those that do no respond never get the nod.

The no touch, talk and eye contact can work for rescues (again they have to be amenable) as it makes them curious.

OP the advice from my sister (walker and daycare provider plus trained in much behaviour stuff) for our current chap was recall happens in the house. Whenever the dog is in a different room call him and give a treat when he comes (see threads on dog-crack for what to offer). Repeat, repeat, repeat and then repeat some more.

You’ll never break the strong prey drive but you can tone it down quite a bit. Over time your dog will prefer the eay win of dog crack from you over a long run after something that may hurt him if it gets caught. (Muntjac have some pretty nasty tusks, your dog will bleed the first time).

Electric shock collars were going to be banned in england in 2018. dunno if the legislation every got passed. Banned in Wales in 2010 and in Scotland are banned

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-42807728

You might find that training to a whistle can help as the high pitched noise is better than the human voice at grabbing the dog’s attention from whatever is more interesting.

This sort of works for my Setter. She’s trained to come back to the whistle and generally does. However with deer it just distracts her momentarily, usually for long enough for the deer to disappear. She then seems to happily follow the scent in the opposite direction to which it’s run.

My GSP used to do the running after deer thing. Best thing is to just go home, they find their way back eventually

So if you just went home I don’t suppose you knew how the deer were?

If you’ve only had the pup for 12 months you have hardly begun training! Even though, as you say, it’s 3 years old and a rescue you still have o lot of training to do.
You need to be more fun than whatever they are chasing/hunting and that is hard to do, you need to work at it. As mentioned above, start recall on the lead and work up to longer distances.

FWIW we have a 2 year old lurcher and every day is still a school day for recall and obedience training.
If she’s anything like our 12 year old whippet, there’s a few more years yet before she’s trained!

My GSP used to do the running after deer thing. Best thing is to just go home, they find their way back eventually

Breaking the law as well

I’ll try not to bore the socks off you, but I love this stuff…

Thorndyke’s law of effect (E.L. Thorndyke, psychologist) basically states that if the consequence of an action(or a behaviour) is pleasant, then that action/behaviour becomes more likely (and also, if the consequence is unpleasant, then the action/behaviour becomes less likely.

First thing to do is stop letting him off lead where he’s likely to run off – your dog has taken to running off after scents to investigate. If he keeps doing it, then he’s getting something out of it (otherwise he wouldn’t repeat the behaviour), or in other words he’s finding it pleasing. The more he practices this, the more likely it is he’ll do it again.

You need to become the center of his universe so that firstly he doesn’t want to leave you, and also condition him to know that when he does come back, great things happen and that you are much more entertaining than whatever’s “out there”.

I could help you with that if you’re not too far (I’m near Ketly), or could put you on to a reputable trainer.

E-collars: If you’re dog is chasing a deer and you want to stop him using an e-collar, Thorndyke’s law dictates that the consequence of chasing the deer must be be more unpleasant than the thrill of the chase – otherwise why should he stop? There’s really no need.

So if you just went home I don’t suppose you knew how the deer were?

go on, have a think about that scenario and get back to me

Breaking the law as well

The dog prisons were full, so she got a suspended sentence. 😆

One of my GSPs is very prey driven. As above, I recommend constant call management off the lead to stop the chase happening in the first place and a whistle for recall rather than shouting.
On the plus side, you’ll learn to see the woods in the same way as wildlife and know where they hang out and where to avoid. In the FofD I get the added fun of being a boar matador when they come charging out of the undergrowth to complain about being barked at.

Swinnertons (brilliant bike shop) have stopped selling dogs. They’re in “FENTON!!!”

Ah yeah, we had pigs over the local thicket. So funny how they’re not the least bit concerned with dogs.

(indirectly) illegal in Scotland

Absolutely not.

You will have noticed my use of the Indirectly when describing them as illegal.

Do you fancy testing that in court?

Training that includes unpleasant (aversive) stimuli or physical punishment may cause unacceptable pain, suffering and distress. It is important to note that causing unnecessary suffering to a protected animal is an offence under Section 19 of the Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006, if the person knew, or ought to have known, that the action would cause unnecessary suffering. This may include unnecessary suffering caused by inappropriate training methods.

Particular training devices that the Scottish Government does not condone are: electronic shock (static pulse) collars, electronic anti-bark collars, electronic containment systems, or any other method to inflict physical punishment or negative reinforcement. This includes the use of any device that squirts oils such as citronella or other noxious chemicals that interfere with a dog’s acute sense of smell, or emits any other aversive stimulus. These techniques compromise dog welfare, as they may lead to aggressive responses and worsen the problems that they aim to address by masking or aggravating underlying behavioural issues.

This guidance is advisory and may provide an aid to both dog owners and those involved in the enforcement of the Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006. Those responsible for enforcement of the 2006 Act may refer to the guidance when issuing advice, warning letters or care notices under the 2006 Act. A Court may, at its discretion, consider the guidance in a prosecution under Section 19 or Section 24 of the Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006.”

https://www.gov.scot/publications/guidance-dog-training-aids/

I have a Karelian Bear Dog from Finland that are used for hunting deer, boar and bears.

He stays on a lead 99% of the time as no command’s/shouts/whistle/promises of cheese get through that prey drive when it cuts in.

I trained as a dog handler and what I will say is that training a dog even simple commands and behaviour can be incredibly repetitive, frustrating and feels like Groundhog Day, with 2 steps forward and 1 step back being the norm.

I do not agree with or see a need for compulsion in any way or form. If you use any form of negative reinforcement it will unravel at some point; often resulting in a bad mannered dog who may snap at some point. Positive reinforcement and reward is the only way to get lasting and satisfying results.

My opinion (based on a speed read of the OP) is that whilst the dog likes you, he’s bored of running after you on your bike… he needs to understand that being with you is more fun than chasing deer. This is a difficult thing to explain on a quick thread but the dog has to want to be with you, and this will help or go a long way to overcome any inbred tendencies. Prey drive is one of the keys to training; use it and exploit it. I usually work out what orientates my dog (food or ball treat & play). In fact I generally get the dog obsessed with a rope ball treat before even trying training. If he’s obsessed with the ball treat then this is his reward in training. The ball treat only comes out when I’m happy and want to reward him. Done properly the dog will REAlLY want to please you because that’s how he gets his all treat (which, incidentally involves playing with you not just giving it to him).

I will only begin training something new once I’m happy he has the right level of obsession with the treat (and me). Once this occurs he will work out what you want home to do so the he gets what he wants.

A very quick tip – done even try to recall at the point he runs away. He will not hear you and you’ll just end up with the classic Fenton scenario.

We fostered a Romanian rescue for a bit and she had a very strong prey drive. Like others have said, most of the training was done in the house. Getting them used to returning to us when called. We then booked a secure dog park and practised recall there with high value treats such as chicken and cheese.
When she would return from a quick run and sniff while on the walk we’d make a fuss so she wanted to come back. With you being on your bike, they may not want to come back all the time as where is the benefit or fun?
The whole idea about being dominant over your dog is rubbish. My FiL has used the cesar methods and now only he can control the dogs, they don’t listen to anyone else and try and dominate others in the house, especially visiting children.
There is a great book, in defence of dogs. Worth a read.