when science doesn’t have the answers humans turn to god

I see it the other way around – science revealing aspects of God’s creation.

Science and God are not mutually exclusive.

Back to the original question:

“Do you believe in God”

Yes – (providing you are talking about the one Jesus was talking about)

“Do you believe in a Devil”

Yes – (providing you are talking about the one Jesus was talking about)

————my two pence worth———————-

There’s also an awlful lot of mis-interpretation of what Christianity is all about in this thread – like rules, and not doing this and that -it’s simply not what it’s all about – Jesus fulfilled all the requirements of the law(s) that you speak of and so that’s not it at all.

Christianity, is simply about getting to know and being in a realtionship (two way communication) with Jesus (and therefore God) and being changed and transformed by that experience manifesting in selflessly loving one another.

One issue I have with the God debate, is that it’s always one-sided. No-one ever talks about the Devil and his role in all this. To me, the greatest trick the Devil has pulled off is to convince people that he doesn’t exist nor enters the debate about whether God does. Moreover that God is instead responsible for everything bad that occurs in the world. This of course gets complicated with free-will, sovereignty and an all powerful God but the issue is let’s have a proper and full debate with all the key players involved.

Ultimately to me, the point for debate focuses or should focus on Jesus. There is sufficient historical evidence from a number of differing texts and sources that Jesus (the man) existed. The question is therefore not did Jesus exist but was he telling the truth? If he was then that leads us to God and an understanding of what God the father is like. If he was lying, then I would be left in little doubt that there wasn’t a God. One of the best quotes on this is from C.S Lewis in his book mere christianity;

“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him (Jesus): I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”

Having considered this question over many years, I’m now in!

There is sufficient historical evidence from a number of differing texts and sources that Jesus (the man) existed.

Serious question, could you point us in the right direction?

One issue I have with the God debate, is that it’s always one-sided. No-one ever talks about the Devil and his role in all this.

I think that not believing in God USUALLY also indicates non belief in a devil?
Unless anyone would like to correct me?

Yes – (providing you are talking about the one Jesus was talking about)

If you deny the existence of all the others, doesn’t that make you just one god away from being an atheist?

Serious question, could you point us in the right direction?

Common historical writings cited in the ‘Did Jesus exist debate’ include “Herodotus”, Jewish historian “Flavius Josephus” and a Roman historian “Carius Cornelius Tacitus”.

A quick and dirty google search will reveal plenty of debate on these historians and their writings but the main text cited is as follows (also from a quick and dirty search for purposes here):

Josephus, in the book Jewish Antiquities” wrote:

“At that time lived Jesus, a wise man, if he may be called a man; for he performed many wonderful works. He was a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure. . . .And when Pilate, at the instigation of the chief men among us, had condemned him to the cross, they who before had conceived an affection for him did not cease to adhere to him. For on the third day he appeared to them alive again, the divine prophets having foretold these and many other wonderful things concerning him. And the sect of the Christians, so called from him, subsists at this time” (Antiquities, Book 18, Chapter 3, Section 1).

Tacitus, in writing about accusations that Nero burned the city of Rome and blamed it on Christians, said the following:

“. . .Nero procured others to be accused, and inflicted exquisite punishment upon those people, who were in abhorrence for their crimes, and were commonly known by the name of Christians. They had their denomination from Christus (Christ, dm.), who in the reign of Tibertius was put to death as a criminal by the procurator Pontius Pilate. . . .At first they were only apprehended who confessed themselves of that sect; afterwards a vast multitude discovered by them, all of which were condemned, not so much for the crime of burning the city, as for their enmity to mankind. . . .” (Tacitus, Annals, 15, 44).

The main point which is often overlooked is that the new testament is an historical document in itself, compiled by many different scholars which included the gospel writers. The bible tells the story of Jesus the man, it sets-out his teaching and points us to God. As C.S Lewis suggests, it’s up to us to decide if he was mad, evil or telling the truth, we can’t say “oh he was just a bloke who suggested we should love one another” – that simply doesn’t do the the debate justice.

Jesus existing doesn’t actually prove anything does it though, other than there was once a nice chap with an infectiously likeable personality and some strange ideas that the rulers of the day found threatening. If a similar character turned up in this day and age he would probably end up sectioned.

EDIT: autocorrect fail

If you deny the existence of all the others, doesn’t that make you just one god away from being an atheist?

not sure what your point is?

Nope. But if people find comfort in God, or the concept of a higher being, then I have no problem with that either.

In the context of the Bible the meaning is more along the lines of “if you sincerely search for God, He will make sure He is found”. The key being sincerely.

James Ch 4 v 8 says “Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you.”See i read that as ‘if you really believe hard enough you’ll eventually convince yourself’.. Listen i’m not saying religion is a bad thing, i was brought up going to church every week till i was 12 and then decided it wasn’t for me. My granny was about a staunch a catholic as you would find, so i do see the good that it holds for some people, just don’t expect me to believe it. Religion hasn’t moved with the times and is very much stuck in the past imo. tbh religion probably should have developed into science at some point a thousand years ago, but well it didn’t as it was hijacked for various reasons.

Bit of a shame when it gets forced onto kids in school though isnt it…even at state primary school I had to sing hymns every assembly, lords prayer etc…as a parent to be I find that all a bit worrying bearing in mind I like a lot of people think its a load of b*****ks…

Science and God are not mutually exclusive.

True but there is no evidence from science for god and not a great religous account of the universe, evolution , dinosaurs,Pangaea or an number of other things I could list.
It certainly does not support the religious view.

Christianity, is simply about getting to know and being in a realtionship (two way communication) with Jesus (and therefore God) and being changed and transformed by that experience manifesting in selflessly loving one another.

yes but other people worshipping other gods are doing exactly the same thing with just as much faith as you. At least some of you are wrong.
people who dont believe in god dont believe in the devil but it is reassuring to know an all loving all powerful god does not stop the devil…..indeed mysterious ways, ineffable and through a glass darkly

Jesus existing doesn’t actually prove anything does it though

I’m not suggesting it does. The question is do you believe what he says?

If a similar character turned up in this day and age he would probably end up sectioned.[/

If all that happened to Jesus was that in todays age he got sectioned i’m sure on some level he’d be chuffed – better than being nailed to a cross – surely!

I think the reality is that in todays age Jesus would fall foul of societies view that “your truth is fine by me as long as it doesn’t affect me” rollocks!

Bit of a shame when it gets forced onto kids in school though isnt it…even at state primary school I had to sing hymns every assembly, lords prayer etc…as a parent to be I find that all a bit worrying bearing in mind I like a lot of people think its a load of b*****ks.

Not really, I thought my own primary school religious education was quite a positive thing, secondary school on the other hand was a different matter and a bit pointless. definitely not a negative thing or something to worry about.

I think the reality is that in todays age Jesus would fall foul of societies view that “your truth is fine by me as long as it doesn’t affect me” rollocks!

Why is that view ‘rollocks’?

Surely better than, oh, nailing someone to a tree for instance?

I think the reality is that in todays age Jesus would fall foul of societies view that “your truth is fine by me as long as it doesn’t affect me” rollocks!

Brilliant.

I see it the other way around – science revealing aspects of God’s creation.

can you expand on that?

Interesting thread. This:

chrisjnr – Member

I believe that there was something more significant work in the creation of the universe than simply a vaguely explained explosion of sorts.

on the first page made me chuckle. Seems a bit like not believing in chocolate cake because its a ‘vaguely explained plant of sorts’. When in fact we do know a couple of minor details about how it all happened…

There are quite a few other things in the thread that made me 😯

Shock news: elfin confuses opinion (onion?) with fact. Again.

Explain please. Seeing as how you’re so clever. Thanx.

As long as religious education covers all the religions in equal weighting then it possibly has a place in schools, maybe as a basis to explain why the world is in the state it is in – lots of different people believing different myths.

Favouring any particular religion, including singing hymns, has no place in schools imo.

People can succumb to the ‘mass delusion/hysteria’ of their choice later in life, without pressure from teachers and other adults trying to abuse/brainwash them.

no, for me personally there is no god.I find god botherers a strange and alien lot, but I can’t stand fundamental hardcore dawkinseque fools either.

So, awkward question time for theists; how do you deal with religious fundamentalism, the people who actually follow the teachings and laws of a religion to the letter?
Are they wrong?

Are they misguided?

Are they just a bit keen?

Are they the keepers of the one true way?

How does their interpretation of the religion measure up?

Are their beliefs as worthy of consideration as yours?
In your own time…

Re-posted.

What I’m after is a kind of ‘why are your beliefs different to theirs?’ kind of thing…

Why is that view ‘rollocks’?

OK a touch OTT but it can’t be true if it’s not true for all.

I think the answer is in your question crikey I take all fundaMENTALism as something belonging to dangerous loons, as once said “science made man fly, releigous fundamentalism made him fly into buildings”

I try to live my life by a general “just be excellent to each other” rule 😀

I try to live my life by a general “just be excellent to each other” rule

So you take your ideology for life from a crap film then?

So you take your ideology for life from a crap film then?

Come on – Bill and Ted were ace!

yep, and it means I even like you elf, despite you being a prissy little monster who’s spoiling for an argument tonight. Have you had a bad day or something?

Nope. You?

I think that a thread on this subject has lasted 6 pages without being blocked is a minor miracle and probably proves that there is a god.

Unfortunately it provides no evidence for which of the 40,000 or so gods it might be.

Are they wrong?

YES

Are they misguided?

No most religions [ till organised] are basically be excellent to each other

Are they just a bit keen?

NO we would all like to live for ever, see wrongs righted and see all our loved ones in an after life

Are they the keepers of the one true way?

Depends which religion you ask but they all think they are and some are definitely not doing this – there is only 1 true god etc

How does their interpretation of the religion measure up?

Sometimes poorly rejecting jesus and turn the other cheek and being all OT vengeance often giving huge weight to bits [ homosexuality whilst ignoring other bits

Jesus
34″Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.
35 “For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’;
36 “and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’

How does their interpretation of the religion measure up?

Generally in life I find them to be quite moral if adhering to a code I dont believe in that is a bit bonkers. Most of the really nice trully generous folk I know have faith in their lifes.

Are their beliefs as worthy of consideration as yours?

no but only a fool would not have considered religion at some point. Only a bigger fool will have considered it and found it to be true.

What I’m after is a kind of ‘why are your beliefs different to theirs?’ kind of thing…

I am rational they are not and my understanding of the world now is greater than it was thousands of years ago. Like us they sought answers to the same questions.
they differ in that they believe I should tolerate their nonsense whilst they can tell me what they like because it is in a book. I am condemned to death, am a sinner, my friends are sinners and all doomed to death and further suffering. Despite their view of non believers and despite the lack of evidence for their belief I should tolerate it or it is disrespectful and I am not tolerant.

“If you deny the existence of all the others, doesn’t that make you just one god away from being an atheist?”

not sure what your point is?

It might be that Christians don’t have a very well developed sense of humour.

I thought it was funny, but then I’m an athiest.

Explain please. Seeing as how you’re so clever. Thanx.

Well bud, Firstly I should say that I enjoy reading your posts and find that you mostly put across a reasoned argument, that I often tend to respectfully disagree with. However, (and it’s probably the reason that I end up biting to your posts more than others) I do find that you have an annoying habit of stating what are your opinions (of which you are perfectly entitled to, and I would defend you right to state them) as actual facts when they patently are not.

I could trawl through your previous posts and find loads of examples but that strikes me as a little anal, However I think you have done it at least twice in this thread alone.

regards x

EDIT; PS, I’ve never said that that I’m clever, however I seem to remember that you are a self proclaimed genius… 😉

TurnerGuy

Favouring any particular religion, including singing hymns, has no place in schools

More silly hysteria.

At the level of understanding of primary school kids, Christianity (or what ever other religion is being taught) is just a vehicle for getting over a few basic lessons in morals + learning a few songs + getting a little bit of a grounding in an important part of our history and culture.

in an important part of our history and culture.

like slavery and the abuse of indigenous people

Religion in schools is shameful and devisive and should be banned immediately.

like slavery and the abuse of indigenous people

And also the use of Science to produce weapons to kill millions of people….

Science didn’t kill people, people did.

..to adapt a Welsh rap anthem..

And what about all those Egyptians in the Red sea? or the folk of Sodom and Gomorrah?

like slavery and the abuse of indigenous people

In one sense (the sense that indeed they are part of our history and culture), yes.

rightplacerighttime – Member

TurnerGuy

Favouring any particular religion, including singing hymns, has no place in schools

More silly hysteria.

At the level of understanding of primary school kids, Christianity (or what ever other religion is being taught) is just a vehicle for getting over a few basic lessons in morals + learning a few songs + getting a little bit of a grounding in an important part of our history and culture.

Religion has no place in any school unless as a comparative religion course. what you describe is divisive and indoctrinating

Science didn’t kill people, people did.

Erm, did you actually read what I writed? 😕

And also the use of Science to produce weapons to kill millions of people

See? HTH….

what you describe is divisive and indoctrinating

Tell that to my daughter, she likes going to Angel Voices, meeting her friends and singing.

She also thinks the vicar is cool.

Not sure how she feels about God though.

BTW – you’re hysterical (and I don’t mean funny)