Cyclist v car… again

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  • Cyclist v car… again
  • robj20
    Member

    Both at fault, cyclist on the wrong side of the road and driver not looking both ways.

    Premier Icon oldnpastit
    Subscriber

    Someone flashed me out, and so I pulled out onto the road

    If someone flashes at you, they’re telling you that their headlights work. Sounds like he needs to go and get some driving lessons.

    Fortunate that the cyclist was not seriously injured.

    EDIT: the cyclist was cycling the wrong way down the cycle path. In that case my sympathy diminishes somewhat. Can anyone make sense of this?

    markwsf
    Member

    Six of one, half of a dozen of the other…

    Yes, the driver should have looked both ways (especially given that he knew of the habit of bikers speeding down the hill the wrong way) but equally, cycling down a cycle path on the wrong side of the road is a stupid thing to do as well.

    Apparently the majority of road accidents are caused by a few things going wrong at the same time rather than just one problem/mistake in isolation, this sounds like just that.

    coogan
    Member

    Yes, he should have checked, which he admitted. But what a bell end for cycling down the wrong side of the road. These stupid folk really get on my nerves.

    robbieh
    Member

    Here where I live we have cycle paths on just one side of the road. Does this mean I have to cycle just one way on them as I’ve never heard of cycle paths being one way especially as they are shared with walkers who go both ways!

    coatesy
    Member

    Reminds me of a comment made after my sister had a head-on collision on a sharp bend in a side street-“It was a good job we both knew it was a dangerous corner, otherwise it could have been much worse.”, pure genius.
    It’s about time road users realised that if they’re going to avoid having accidents, they have to take responsibility for everybody’s actions, not just their own.

    gonefishin
    Member

    Here where I live we have cycle paths on just one side of the road. Does this mean I have to cycle just one way on them as I’ve never heard of cycle paths being one way especially as they are shared with walkers who go both ways!

    It depends on the path some are one way some are two way. If that photo in the newspaper is the one in question, then I can see why there would be a path going up hill where the cyclists are slower than other road users and not one going downhill where they will be at the same(ish) speed as other road users. I agree that it’s a case six and two threes.

    rickt
    Member

    Mervyn said: “He was cycling down the hill in the cycle lane facing the oncoming traffic, I didn’t think to look to my left as the cyclist shouldn’t have been there.”

    But Mervyn said cyclists going in the wrong direction down Sticklepath Hill was an ongoing problem

    Did not think to look but knew it was a problem???

    jaymoid
    Member

    Here where I live we have cycle paths on just one side of the road. Does this mean I have to cycle just one way on them as I’ve never heard of cycle paths being one way especially as they are shared with walkers who go both ways!

    I was about to say the same thing, I follow this rule… If the cyclepath is on the road itself, then I assume it is one way. There’s usually one on each side of the road if this is the case. If it is on a shared path (usually on or next to pavement) then I assume it goes both ways.

    Even on a 30 road I’d be shit scared riding against oncoming traffic like that, double impact!

    As a man much wiser than me once said: “Too many psychopaths, not enough cycle paths”

    robbieh
    Member

    That makes good sense thanks. Not having that steep a hill round here, it had’nt occurred to me about the speed factor. Also, here the cycle paths are shared pavement with only minimal road shared which obviously I wouldn’t ride the wrong way on.

    ti_pin_man
    Member

    Weirdly I largely agree the cyclist was at fault, bike lanes that are part of a road are mostly one way, going the same way as the traffic on that side. I’ve seen a few cyclists using them over the years as two way which is dangerous for fellow cyclists as well as themselves. The cyclists I’ve seen doing this are generally in the leisure category, i.e. people cycling for transport not hobby, often in jeans etc – nowt wrong with that but they clearly need some help using bike facilities.

    I suspect theres another reason they go the wrong way on that route, maybe the road is busy and they cant cross it to use the other side? Or some such thing. Maybe the college is on this side of the road and people cant be bothered to cross. anybody know?

    antigee
    Member

    As above I’d guess there is a reason cyclists are using the lane in wrong direction – lots of drivers don’t check for filtering bikes cars or motorbikes a lot don’t check when pulling out turning left even to see if any obstruction – lived opposite a bus stop by a junction and saw a few cars pull out fast into the back of a stationary bus because only looked one way

    sangobegger
    Member

    Old guy admits to not looking, well at least he had the balls to say so. Cyclist however, well that was simply natural selection in action. Having spent time with “leisure” cyclists, they seem to think that the rules of the road don’t apply to them and its pretty scary watching them”interact” with traffic.

    snaps
    Member

    Did not think to look but knew it was a problem???

    My thoughts exactly, he knew of a possible hazard but chose not to check – with the college where it is, this is going to be difficult to stop people riding this way.

    College is at the top of the hill (behind in this pic) on the same side as Mervs house, students want to get to town (at the bottom) but the cycle path in question is used rather than crossing a busy road, using the correct cycle lane then crossing the same busy road halfway down the hill.
    Picture of both cycle lanes

    mrmo
    Member

    Cyclist shouldn’t have been in the cycle path, but the key to me, the driver states it happens all the time. So if he knows it is likely why didn’t he bother to look!

    mrmo
    Member

    Having looked at the google link, i link the way the path just disappears and then reappears on the downhill side how it takes you right past the gates of the houses on a narrow pavement, the positioning of the blue pedestrian/cyclist sign. The way it leads you onto the pavement at a ridiculus angle, accident waiting to happen if ever i saw one!

    A perfect example of why UK cycle paths are s***!

    Premier Icon Lifer
    Subscriber

    2 contraflow cycle paths round here, off the top of my head.

    Premier Icon takisawa2
    Subscriber

    I’m going with 75/25 in Merv’s favour.

    Merv looks alright to me.

    pdw
    Member

    A quick look on Google suggests that this is probably a result of typically poor signing of cycle paths.

    Here we are at the top of the hill with a nice blue sign encouraging cyclists onto a shared use path:

    http://goo.gl/maps/MTlwj

    Just round the corner and there’s the start of the on-road cycle lane:

    http://goo.gl/maps/2E4aR

    The on-road lane is obviously one-way, but what are cyclists going the other way on the shared path supposed to do? There’s no sign saying that the shared use path has ended, so with the on-road lane clearly being one-way, you might reasonably do the same as the cyclist captured on Google and carry on on the path.

    If you look a bit further down the hill, you can see why people coming from the college want to use that side of the road. You’d otherwise have to make what looks like difficult right turn to stay on Sticklepath Hill, and then get onto the cycle path across to the train station etc. Although that said, I don’t know why you would go down the much quieter Old Sticklepath Hill which links up with the same route, other than the fact that there’s no sign at the top of the hill suggesting that it’s possible.

    There’s obviously some acknowledgement of the problem: it’s pretty rare of an on-road cycle lane to have direction arrows, and this one has plenty. If the cyclist really was in the cycle lane, then I have little sympathy as it’s very obviously one way.

    ti_pin_man
    Member

    if you move up the hill from the link above, i guess towards the college, you can see why cyclists use this side of the road, eventually at the roundabout the cycle lane fades into the path, this is quite a wide cycle lane so i can see the appeal of riding down it, against the traffic direction. I wouldnt myself but can see the temptation looks more appealing than crossing that traffic. There needs to be some adjustment to get the bikes over the road onto the right side. or to build up the pavement and make the cycle lane dual purpose (multi-directional) with pedestrians/bikes and up off the road.

    EDIT: well said above, snap.

    snaps
    Member

    Although that said, I don’t know why you would go down the much quieter Old Sticklepath Hill which links up with the same route, other than the fact that there’s no sign at the top of the hill suggesting that it’s possible.

    Old Sticklepath hill is much steeper & has a chicane/fence type bit at the bottom & a lot of students walk down there blocking the road, unaware of people riding down.
    After this tragic accident

    Premier Icon bails
    Subscriber

    If you go back up the hill on streetview, to the Esso Garage, http://goo.gl/maps/uXDBb you’ll see that the cycle lane disappears and the pavement on that side of the road becomes a two way cycle track and shared use pavement. So…

    1. I can’t see any signs to say that the pavement further down the hill is no longer ‘shared use’. It probably isn’t but there’s someone on a bike on streetview riding on it. So the driver could have been supposed to be looking for cyclists coming downhill on the pavement.

    2. There’s a confusing bit of paint that could just be a divider for Pedestrian¦Cyclist or it could be directing cyclists heading down the hill into the cycle lane: http://goo.gl/maps/1DXNp
    It could be that the designers (ha!) never imagined that anyone would be travelling ‘against’ the traffic flow while on the shared use pavement. So where they put the paint guiding ‘uphill’ cyclists onto the pavement it now looks like it’s guiding downhill cyclists into the road.

    It’s a bit of mess really. Well intentioned but poorly thought out and half heartedly built, like most cycle facilities in the UK.

    The driver should have looked both ways and the cyclist shouldn’t have been riding against traffic.

    Edit: Other people ^^ have said the same as me about the rubbish cycle lane.

    toby1
    Member

    If you look over the shoulder of the guy in the picture above there is the stem of what looks to be an arrow indicating the direction of travel for the lane.

    If there was a kid cycling down the lane then the driver should also have been on the look out for pedestrians leaving the college as I assume the kid wasn’t alone in leaving school/college for the day.

    Mistakes all round really. The ‘flashing’ driver shouldn’t have and should have seen the cyclist, the cyclist shouldn’t have been on the wrong side of the road, and the driver was clearly not paying enough attention.

    shermer75
    Member

    I’m with Merv. Everyone cycles and drives on the left, much simpler and safer for everyone. Seems obvious to me.

    Premier Icon bails
    Subscriber

    It does make you wonder why the driver flashed. He/she would have been looking straight at the cyclist when they did it!

    Mind you, I had a van half overtake me, then slam on the brakes and flash a car to pull out of a side road on the left. I nearly ended up in the side of it. I was travelling the right way down the road though!

    Premier Icon martinhutch
    Subscriber

    Initially I was mostly with Merv, but after looking at that signage, there’s nothing (except possibly some common sense) telling cyclists that their shared path has ended, so he perhaps should expect cyclists on his pavement heading downhill, so should have looked harder.

    Crazy cycle ‘facility’, though, given the speed that could be built up on that hill. Council needs to look again at it.

    Premier Icon D0NK
    Subscriber

    I’m with Merv. Everyone cycles and drives on the left,

    except on some contraflow and other bike lane systems.

    Merv does know that pedestrians may be approaching from the left doesn’t he? And he already knows cyclists ride the wrong way so he really, really should be looking left aswell before he pulls out (and IME lots of driver don’t look at all when they get flashed, which is shit scary quite irksome if I’m filtering or overtaking busy traffic)

    shite bike infrastructure as per.

    But yeah cyclist contributed to it. 50/50?

    Bails I sometimes wonder whether some drivers do shit like that on purpose, “oooh luck there’s a cyclist lets have some fun and flash this car out of the side street”.

    federalski
    Member

    The Blameometer

    33.333% Driver who flashed for Merv to pull out.
    33.333% Merv for not looking left.
    33.333% Cyclist

    VanMan
    Member

    Just because someone flashes you to come out of a junction doesn’t abdicate you from looking both ways. Never rely on the eyesight of someone else to tell you it is safe to do anything on the road.

    Plus how does he know, if he didn’t look, that the guy flashing wasn’t letting someone cross the road?

    Whether or not the cyclist was in the wrong a good motorist should be checking both directions,for the unexpected not the expected .

    mrmo
    Member

    the cyclist may have been in the wrong place, BUT the driver is the one who has a licence, the one who is expected to know the law, to make allowances for those around him. What if it had been a kid on a scooter,etc. Was he blocking the pavement, what if a pedestrian was trying to get past etc.

    The blame is the drivers end of.

    I’m 80-20 in Merv’s favour. He could have looked to check both ways were clear but then there shouldn’t have been anything coming from that direction as it’s not a contra flow, maybe he should also have looked up in case there was a falling piano heading his way.

    nealglover
    Member

    the cyclist may have been in the wrong place, BUT the driver is the one who has a licence, the one who is expected to know the law, to make allowances for those around him.

    So cyclists can’t be to blame for any incedent that also involves a car then.

    After all, cyclists don’t have a license
    and aren’t expected to know the law,
    And don’t have to make allowances for anyone else

    according to your logic at least.

    Premier Icon D0NK
    Subscriber

    He could have looked to check both ways were clear but then there shouldn’t have been anything coming from that direction

    pedestrians? Bit of a bug bear of mine, at rush hour there’s always a queue of cars in this side street bumper to bumper and the lead drivers only looking for cars to their right, how the hell are pedestrians supposed to cross the side street, infront of the lead car who is only concentrating on cars from the right? Wait for the drivers to wave you across? (good luck with that)

    I already said bicyclist has to share some blame but drivers have a duty to look both ways, more so than others cause they are the ones in the potentially very dangerous vehicle.

    will
    Member

    coogan – Member
    Yes, he should have checked, which he admitted. But what a bell end for cycling down the wrong side of the road. These stupid folk really get on my nerves.

    This. Nothing else really needs to be said.

    toppers3933
    Member

    that is not a contraflow shared use cycle path. it is a one way shared use cycle path designed (!) to remove cyclists from the main carriageway that are coming up the hill towards the roundabout. there are no instructions for anyone in any other direction to join the shared use cycle path. it could be argued that the instructions for the people travelling up the hill are vague at best. cyclists from the other 2 directions are not given any instruction until after the roundabout heading down the hill where they are provided with a mandatory cycle lane.

    i think both parties are at fault. wouldn’t at all surprise me if mere wasn’t reversing out his drive too (i have no evidence of this obviously) which is also an offence.

    edlong
    Member

    Here where I live we have cycle paths on just one side of the road. Does this mean I have to cycle just one way on them as I’ve never heard of cycle paths being one way especially as they are shared with walkers who go both ways!

    Are you sure you’re talking about a cycle “path” (which I would take to mean something separate to the main carriageway of the road) or a cycle “lane” (i.e. a painted section of the main carriageway, shared with motor vehicles). I think this incident involved a lane painted on the normal carriageway.

    In the case of the former (separate path), I’ve never come across one that was “one-way” and, if it’s separate from the “road” I’m not sure why you would assume that its position relative to the road would imply a particular direction of travel (think of it as being a separate “road” for bikes that happens to run parallel to the “road” for the cars and lorries etc.)

    In the case of the latter (a painted lane), unless there’s signage telling you differently, I would assume that the lane is for cyclists travelling in the direction of the traffic, i.e. a cyclist in the lane finds themselves to the left of the traffic, and if you’re travelling in the other direction, you simply use the other side of the road as you normally would (i.e. mixing it up with the rest of the traffic). There’s lots like this near me and to be honest I don’t think many of them are put in for the benefit of cyclists, more as a traffic calming measure, i.e. it’s a reason to narrow the “normal” lanes a bit and make the road seem narrower to drivers than it really is – similar to those where they’ve widened the central divider from a broken white line to a foot wide hashed strip.

    mrmo
    Member

    cyclist doing just what teh cyclist in question did.

    Who would have guessed a google car captured the problem.

    wonder what the flowers are for?

    nealglover – Member

    the cyclist may have been in the wrong place, BUT the driver is the one who has a licence, the one who is expected to know the law, to make allowances for those around him.

    So cyclists can’t be to blame for any incedent that also involves a car then.

    After all, cyclists don’t have a license
    and aren’t expected to know the law,
    And don’t have to make allowances for anyone else

    according to your logic at least.

    Pretty much, there is no right to drive a car and when most drivers realise this the better for everyone. What we don’t know is how old the youth was? i am guessing youth from the mention of college. Was s/he given the option of cycle training, why was he on the wrong cycle path etc etc. kids are kids, they do stupid things. It is why young children aren’t liable for their actions in a criminal court, why sentances for young offenders are different to adults, etc etc

    Ban private cars and you solve far more problems than you create. Most journeys are less than a couple of miles where cars are uneccessary, they might be more convienient but that doesn’t make them vital. For those who commute 50miles each way to work, you are the miniscule minority and are statisically insignificant. The increase in air quality and the reduction in Asthma, the reduction in RTAs, the reduction in congestion would improve commercial traffic, etc etc.

    sbob
    Member

    Legally, as Merv was the one entering the highway he is probably 100% at fault. It has nothing to do with him being in a car and the chap being on a bike.
    Realistically there is blame on both sides, of course.

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