• This topic has 125 replies, 44 voices, and was last updated 1 year ago by renton.
Viewing 40 posts - 81 through 120 (of 126 total)
  • Consumer rights advice help please.
  • irc
    Full Member

    Another path to consider is a complaint to your credir card provider about rejecting your S75 claim. Followed, if your complaint is rejected, by a complaint to the financial ombudsman.

    Poor quality worktops here but similar idea. S75 claim rejected by card company. Card company told by ombudsman to deal with it.

    https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/decisions-case-studies/case-studies/customer-unhappy-kitchen-worktops

    captmorgan
    Free Member

    Hi Captmorgan, thanks for the advice.

    I submitted a subject access request to the store/head office asking for a copy of the engineers report which they have failed to give me.

    I also contacted the chap that came to inspect the sofa and he said he cant help me, so I suspect he was favouring the store.

    They have 28 days I believe to respond so they may well yet, while I was waiting I’d contact the legal cover provided by my home insurance & see what advise/support they can provide.

    That’s also a very good point about the financial ombudsman above.

    ctk
    Free Member

    How much deposit have you paid?

    renton
    Free Member

    We have paid a £835 deposit on a 4100 sofa

    boblo
    Free Member

    Sorry, I’m probly being thick…

    2 sofas, 1 of which you have? Total £4100 of which you’ve paid £835…or?

    If that’s right, they’ll be all over you for the balance Shirley so you have the power… Mwah Mwah Mwah etc

    renton
    Free Member

    Yes sorry it’s 2 sofas. Finance company can’t start taking money until we have the full delivery

    boblo
    Free Member

    Sorry about this. I’m not trying to pry into your finances but it’s germane to the issue.

    If the goods are on finance, the finance company is also responsible so you can raise a section 75 with/against them.

    Presumably the ~£800 deposit is on CC which is why you mentioned the CC Co?

    I wouldn’t waste time with the sofa company, they sound like tosseurs to deal with. Confirm your position in writing, give them say a week to collect then raise with the finance company if the sofa still lives in your lounge (or wherever).

    They’ll let you run round in circles as long as you’re prepared to…

    renton
    Free Member

    Cheers for the info.

    I think the problem with it is that we say the quality isn’t acceptable and also the sofa isn’t the same quality as the one we viewed in the store but the shop and head office are saying it will s and is also within manufacture specification and tolerance.

    The issue I have with that is that I’ve not been shown any tolerances etc.

    ajantom
    Full Member

    Don’t you have an automatic right to reject and receive a refund within 14 days?
    And as you haven’t received the second sofa that 14 days hasn’t started yet?

    Your right to cancel an order for goods starts the moment you place your order and ends 14 days from the day you receive your goods.

    If your order consists of multiple goods, the 14 day period runs from when you get the last of the batch.

    This 14 day period is the time you have to decide whether to cancel, you then have a further 14 days to actually send the goods back.

    hels
    Free Member

    Why a data subject access request out of curiosity? That is a right of access to your personal data, a report about a sofa is about a sofa not you. It might have your name on it but that is likely the only personal data. They don’t have to release that to you under data protection law but they may give it up if it backs their position.

    singletrackmind
    Full Member

    Loving the sofa engineer. Has a degree in sofology. From the chaisse longes school of sitting down.
    Are not the distance selling regs applicable here. As ypur buying something technically unseen. As in not a display model in a fancy shop.
    Tell the finance co they are not of a reasonable standard. Then unsign the credit agreement. Although after this long that could be difficult.
    If you still actually want them try tobfinf out if they offer a warranty or repair service.
    DFS do ad i used to deliver the customer some random sofa and collect the one their feral kids had smashed by jumping up and down on the sofa arm

    tthew
    Full Member

    Don’t you have an automatic right to reject and receive a refund within 14 days?

    IIRC the rules about made to measure items, which a sofa would be due to fabric choices, are different.

    Sorry for your troubles OP. ☹️

    theotherjonv
    Full Member

    I think that ^ probably negates the distance selling regs, if they can claim it is a make to order.

    If they won’t allow you to have their own assessors report, and I can see why they wouldn’t if your verbal report is mirrored by what he supplied them (last page, you said “Long and short of it is that he said there is too much material and has been manufactured wrong. He then said he would feed his report into the shop”)  Although that’s then a bit dishonest either of him if he’s then gone back and said nothing was wrong to them, or alternatively the shop knows it’s crap and is still claiming it’s OK.

    – Could you get a local upholsterer to come and give an independent assessment and a quote to give it a nip and tuck if that’s possible? Pay them £50 for their time and know where you stand?

    Then you have a factual assessment rather than ‘your opinion’ that you can use to threaten them with as a court claim, either for refund / replacement and costs, or maybe a reduction so you can pay the expert to fix it.

    Alternatively, brazen it out and say you’re taking them to court on the basis of an independent report and refuse to let them see it unless they release their report to you.

    weeksy
    Full Member

    I’ll come over with the van, we’ll take it to the shop and block the doorway with it.
    I bet they’ll crumble in 10 mins

    tonyf1
    Free Member

    Given the shop had had an engineers report and are saying the sofa is within tolerance but is making an offer of replacement you are going to struggle with s75 without commissioning your own report to refute.

    Think hard on the outcome are you after? I’d be taking up the offer of a meet up with Regional Manager as a next step to avoid burning bridges before you need to.

    Cougar
    Full Member

    Are not the distance selling regs applicable here.

    The distance selling regs haven’t existed for years, so no. The 14-day right to reject is Consumer Contract Regulations.

    IIRC the rules about made to measure items, which a sofa would be due to fabric choices, are different.

    There is an exemption for bespoke items where there is no chance of resale. So if you’d have something engraved with “Congratulations to Carla and Brian Hapton-Jones on your 20th wedding anniversary” that would be considered bespoke; a sofa that’s grey instead of cream, not so much.

    Cougar
    Full Member

    OK. Look.

    First you need to decide what you want to do. Do you want a refund; do you want a replacement; do you want a repair? If it were me, the fact that half the order is still some degree of lost would factor heavily here.

    If you want to send it back, you have 14 days from receipt to reject the goods under CCR as above. You do not need to supply a reason to do this, whether the store or a sofa engineer or your sister’s hairdresser does or does not think it’s faulty is irrelevant. Additionally the store has to have explained their cancellation policy in a tangible medium like a letter; if they haven’t, your cancellation period could be up to a year. And again, you haven’t received the full order, if they cannot provide a date of expected delivery this is also grounds for refund.

    If you want a replacement or a repair then we’re into Consumer Contract Regulations. Goods have to be fit for purpose (it is) as described (it isn’t) and of satisfactory quality (is it?). You have 30 days from delivery to claim for a refund on these grounds; after than and inside of six months you have to allow them at least one chance to repair / replace. Beyond that… it gets complicated and isn’t relevant here.

    What I wouldn’t be doing personally is tossing about with engineer’s reports and third-party inspections. If you don’t want it then tell them to come get it and don’t take no for an answer. I’ve said this many times now, but I’ve had a lot of mileage out of variations on “just to be clear, can you confirm that you’re refusing to honour my statutory rights?”

    Cougar
    Full Member

    TL;DR,

    Forget the existing sofa. Where’s the other one? If the answer is “we don’t know” then refund plz kkthxbi.

    renton
    Free Member

    First you need to decide what you want to do. Do you want a refund; do you want a replacement; do you want a repair? If it were me, the fact that half the order is still some degree of lost would factor heavily here.

    If you want to send it back, you have 14 days from receipt to reject the goods under CCR as above. You do not need to supply a reason to do this, whether the store or a sofa engineer or your sister’s hairdresser does or does not think it’s faulty is irrelevant. Additionally the store has to have explained their cancellation policy in a tangible medium like a letter; if they haven’t, your cancellation period could be up to a year. And again, you haven’t received the full order, if they cannot provide a date of expected delivery this is also grounds for refund.

    If you want a replacement or a repair then we’re into Consumer Contract Regulations. Goods have to be fit for purpose (it is) as described (it isn’t) and of satisfactory quality (is it?). You have 30 days from delivery to claim for a refund on these grounds; after than and inside of six months you have to allow them at least one chance to repair / replace. Beyond that… it gets complicated and isn’t relevant here.

    What I wouldn’t be doing personally is tossing about with engineer’s reports and third-party inspections. If you don’t want it then tell them to come get it and don’t take no for an answer. I’ve said this many times now, but I’ve had a lot of mileage out of variations on “just to be clear, can you confirm that you’re refusing to honour my statutory rights?”

    Hi Cougar,

    Just for clarity;

    The Sofa was rejected by email to the store on the same day the first sofa was delivered. Reject under goods not as described and not of satisfactory quality. Asked them to refund ASAP and collect the sofa.

    Someone from Natuzzi acknowledged this and said it was procedure to get the sofa inspected before carrying on. I reiterated that we want to reject under CCR. They told me that the inspection doesn’t affect my statutory rights.

    Sofa inspected, verbally told by engineer on the day that there is too much material and that it will only get baggier and worse. He said he would report the same into the shop and head office.

    I then emailed again saying that we still wish to reject and they need to collect (3 times at this point with no acknowledgement)

    Someone from head office emails me saying no chance of a refund, its within manufacturer tolerance and they will repair or replace. I emailed this person, the store and head office plus Natuzzi direct saying we are rejecting and want a refund.

    Heard nothing since then.

    credit card not sure about it as they don’t normally refund for quality issues.

    At a loss now as don’t know how to progress further !

    EDIT: they have found the other sofa and its sat in the warehouse.

    frankconway
    Full Member

    Have you talked with a solicitor about this?
    If not, I strongly suggest you do – and be prepared to appoint one
    Designer Sofas are the retailer and, on Companies House, list Mr Michael Solomon as ‘…a/the person with significant control’; they, in turn, are owned by Natuzzi.
    If it was me…email them fao Michael Solomon pointing out that they are attempting to deny you your legally enforceable rights and you are now appointing a solicitor whose costs will be charged to Designer Sofas when this matter is concluded.
    You are rejecting the sofa under the Consumer Rights Act so ask them what they are relying on under the Act to deny you your legal rights?
    The item they have delivered is not as described and is not of satisfactory quality and, as such, they are in breach of the regulations; it is not for ‘Gary’ to state that a refund is out of the question – that is a legal matter.
    You could also ask if they would welcome the adverse publicity which would result if you choose to broadcast your experience of their poor customer service.

    Cougar
    Full Member

    I’ve just realised, you bought in-store didn’t you. So CCR probably doesn’t apply here.

    Nonetheless. They sent out their own engineer who confirmed it was faulty. They’re now saying it isn’t. So what was the point of the engineer? Presumably they can define this ‘manufacturers tolerance’ and evidence it?

    That response makes no sense, if they’re willing to repair or replace then they’re ipso facto acknowledging that there’s something wrong with it. “Do you agree that it’s faulty, yes or no? If yes, refund thanks. If no, what do you propose there is to repair?”

    What a shit show.

    oceanskipper
    Full Member

    All of what Frank says plus I  think you also need to notify the finance company that you wish to cancel the agreement under the cooling off period conditions. Also revisit the CC company and don’t say it’s not of satisfactory quality, say you have changed your mind under the CRA and  the store are refusing a refund.

    Cougar
    Full Member

    The CRA doesn’t account for “I’ve changed my mind,” that’s CCR.

    Minefield, innit.

    renton
    Free Member

    My head hurts !!

    I do appreciate all the help and advice by the way.

    I think I will be emailing and cc’ing that guy mentioned above.

    oceanskipper
    Full Member

    The CRA doesn’t account for “I’ve changed my mind,” that’s CCR

    Yeah – that’s what I meant…🙄😉👍 cheers @Cougar!

    And yes it’s difficult to remember what does what if you are a casual punter just after an honest straightforward transaction….

    Cougar
    Full Member

    Very much so.

    I got embroiled in this shite working in tech support back in the 90s. We sold rubbish so there were a lot of refund requests and “I KNOW MY RIGHTS!” So I went and learned what their rights were and as it turned out, “I know my rights” was a sure sign that they didn’t.

    I’ve kinda kept half an eye on it ever since because a) it crops up again and again, and b) I don’t particularly want to have my pants pulled down by screaming that I know my rights to some jumped-up 20-something who actually does.

    frankconway
    Full Member

    From Designer Sofas Ts & Cs…

    If your product is goods, for example furniture, the Consumer Rights Act 2015 says goods must be as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality. During the expected lifespan of your product your legal rights entitle you to the following:

    ·      up to 30 days: if your goods are faulty, then you can get an immediate refund.

    So ask why they have decided to ignore their own Ts & Cs – which mirror the CRA.

    renton
    Free Member

    Good point.

    However the t&c above aren’t on my contract that I have with the Natuzzi store. Does that matter ??

    renton
    Free Member

    Also if they are saying the quality is fine and it’s fit for purpose and within manufacture tolerance how do I proceed

    oceanskipper
    Full Member

    Bypass the store and get back on to the CC company. Insist you want a case opening as you are in dispute with the merchant. TBH either the cooling off period or not as described are probably your best options – satisfactory quality is going to be open to a lot of interpretation. Can you go into the store and photograph the one you sat on and then  also photograph the one that was delivered from the same distance and angle. Send the pics off to the CC company to support your case once it’s opened. Try and cancel the finance agreement too…

    oh and under no circumstances accept delivery of the second one – refuse it if it turns up.

    EDIT – I notice you do actually already have a pic of the showroom one so just photograph yours from the same angle. 👍

    frankconway
    Full Member

    The sofa they have delivered is not as described; your only reference point was the display model in store – which had been there for some months and sat on by multiple customers – and a visual comparison between that and the item delivered delivered to you clearly shows yours is not as described.
    In this context ‘as described’ means the display model in store.
    In any of the documentation you were given – contract/order confirmation or anything else – is there any reference to manufacturing tolerances and, if so, are they specified?
    Were manufacturing tolerances specifically referred to you by store staff when you placed your order?

    As a separate point, I would say they have misrepresented the item which you have ordered as it is clearly not as described; if/when you get a solicitor involved it would be interesting to get their take on possible misrepresentation – either negligent or innocent.

    bruneep
    Full Member

    https://documents.natuzzi.com/doc/id/Warranty/natuzzi_terms-and-conditions_en.pdf

    Consumers’ legal rights
    The benefits provided under the NATUZZI ITALIA manufacturer’s
    warranty are additional to your rights and remedies under the consumer protection laws and regulations applicable in the country of purchase –these statutory rights are not affected in any way.
    The specific consumer rights protected by this warranty may vary from
    country to country.

    theotherjonv
    Full Member

    Also if they are saying the quality is fine and it’s fit for purpose and within manufacture tolerance how do I proceed

    And you’re saying it isn’t so my suggestion would be to appoint an independent expert to judge, hence why I suggested getting an opinion from an upholsterer. But Cougar says that would be tossing about, so make your own choices.

    Cougar
    Full Member

    I think I will be emailing and cc’ing that guy mentioned above.

    In all honesty, if I were you I’d be in the store at rope drop tomorrow being loud. You’ve placed an order, you’ve got half of it which is faulty and another half which is missing. You’ve complied with all their requests for inspections and reports, they’ve agreed that it’s faulty and now they’re refusing to honour your statutory rights. They’re taking the piss and I’d be making sure that every new customer in earshot knew it.

    I agree with most everything that Frank said, there’s some good advice there. I particularly love “ask them what they are relying on under the Act to deny you your legal rights?” and I’m totally going to steal that for future reference. But “email the CEO” (or whoever he is) is unlikely to make a difference unless it’s an anomaly like Julian Richer. The CEO doesn’t give a **** about your sofa, he’s got prone Eastern European virgins to sit upon. Any “FAO Someone Important I Discovered On The Internet” email is going to go straight back into the complaints queue with all the other complaints, likely with a Post-It attached reading “dickhead alert, move to bottom of queue.” No offence implied, that’s just how support desks work IME.

    Go to the store, kick off.

    Cougar
    Full Member

    However the t&c above aren’t on my contract that I have with the Natuzzi store. Does that matter ??

    No, because,

    warranty are additional to your rights and remedies under the consumer protection laws and regulations applicable in the country of purchase –these statutory rights are not affected in any way.

    Any warranty can only add to your statutory rights. It cannot replace them. This is what “statutory” means.

    Cougar
    Full Member

    if they are saying the quality is fine and it’s fit for purpose and within manufacture tolerance how do I proceed

    It’s not as described so is CRA breach. Matters not a jot what their tolerances might be, it’s not what you were told you were buying.

    If there’s pushback from the manufacturer, that’s their problem to deal with not yours.

    renton
    Free Member

    Just thought I would follow this up with the outcome:

    The shop have finally relinquished and agreed to take the sofa back, refund us and cancel the finance.

    Also, as I felt I was getting nowhere with them I raised a section 75 with my credit card who also found in our favour and have refunded us.

    So, a result in the end and I’d like to thank you all for the advice given.

    matt_outandabout
    Full Member

    👍

    What a faff though….

    the-muffin-man
    Full Member

    So, a result in the end and I’d like to thank you all for the advice given.

    Great result – now go and have a sit down and relax – ooh wait…

    renton
    Free Member

    Agreed, absolute ball ache

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