No, this isn’t another stw classifieds rant.

Have we done this? I can’t remember seeing it.

Pretty interesting, pretty expensive obvs, but could be applicable to off road.

This came up on my YouTube from the roadie lot.

The proprietary cassette is a nice bit of machining, but looks expensive to replace.

Classified powershift hub

Certainly looks interesting. I’m not sure why, but they limit the chainring to a smallest of 40T. I think that limits the off road potential though.

Oh right. Didn’t see that bit actually, though presumably, this being like having a front mech, you could maybe get away with that? 😐

pretty expensive obvs

It’s not a derailleur killer then.

No. Gcn’s words posed as a question, not mine by the way.

It doesn’t seem that long ago that Hammerschmidt took over the MTB world. Oh…

We needed a thread on this. I was wondering what the chain ring limit was. 40 isn’t ideal but it’s not bad. That would give 28 34 as the bottom gear with 0.7 reduction. But presumably 1×12 with a drop bar shifter will go main stream soon and make this less attractive.

Hard to know how much it costs as you can only buy it with 2 carbon wheels

Certainly looks interesting. I’m not sure why, but they limit the chainring to a smallest of 40T. I think that limits the off road potential though.

presumably torque limits with those small gear wheels

It is very interesting, if it is developed further and higher volume of sales brings the prices down it could be.

Planetary gears aren’t a new thing just that application in the rear hub is something no one has come up with before (to my knowledge), I wonder how much they are protected by patents or if a big manufacturer can just come in nick their idea and run with it.

I would like it on my gravel bike.

presumably torque limits with those small gear wheels

I think they are just being ultra cautious. I think if you buy this, it has to be installed by an approved dealer to make sure there are no horror stories of it breaking  but the user denying that its their fault.

I think as it gets used and they get some data back and some market confidence they will start to release some more models.

At the moment Its a large investment with a large degree of risk. Seems a sensible approach to me.

if it is developed further and higher volume of sales brings the prices down it could be.

Planetary gears are pretty simple, there isn’t any obvious developmental path for them. They require precision machining, which requires expensive factory equipment. Economy of scale is limited for stuff like that. It will always be more expensive than a derailleur.

They don’t have to be cheaper than a mechanical derailleur, it would be equivalent to an axs front derailleur plus premium hub. Plus it doesn’t even have to be as cheap if it is seen as a better solution.

This won’t be aimed at the mechanical 105/slx buyers. IMO around 700 and it becomes a serious option for those who would fit an axs red/force/xx1/x01 groupset.

Back in the 1960s Sturmey Archer made a 3speed hub which could carry a 3speed block (cassette equivalent). The resident nutter at my school combined that with a triple clanger (chainset).
27 gears! Madness! You could ride up the side of a house with that!

40t (so an effective 28t granny) doesn’t seem too bad. It’s sold with carbon rims and costs ££££ so hardly aimed at anyone with panniers.

Interesting that it’s the same weight as a road 2x setup. Presumably that makes it lighter than an off road 1x setup with the same range? Which when you put it up against things like GX ASX it doesn’t look too expensive.

Hammershmidt was doomed because it was marketed to freeriders, but the cranks were made of cheese.

Big John – sheldon Brown in his madness made a 63 speed bike

The O.T.B. currently sports a Sturmey-Archer AW 3-speed hub, with 7 sprockets, driven by 3 chainwheels: 3 x 7 x 3 = 63. When people hear that I have built a 63-speed bicycle, the first question they ask is “do you really need all those gears?”

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/org/otb.html

I think you can get a sachs 3pd hub with a 7 speed cassette on it. Dunno if still available

Smart thru-axle, eh?

Reality catches up quick with this April Fools from yesterday…

https://bikepacking.com/news/robert-axle-project-erap/

I’d seen the video a couple of days ago and thought it looked an interesting idea but at the current price – I’m oot! The gearing is basically a compact chainset: 50/34 has the small ring at 68%.

For price comparison a Shimano 8spd Nexus IGH is £240 and a Rohloff is £1200, both mechanical shifting and you’d need to get a rim and spokes and build the wheel as well. Pretty sure the Nexus is planetary gears and the aforementioned Sturmey Archers certainly are.

SA, Nexus, rohloff are all planetary gears

for me mixing the two is the worst of both worlds. either go IGH or derailleur but mixing the two is a waste of time. You get the disadvatages of both

[strong]tjagain[/strong] wrote:

for me mixing the two is the worst of both worlds. either go IGH or derailleur but mixing the two is a waste of time. You get the disadvatages of both

Apart from not weighing as much as a planet and actually being more efficient than a chainring?

It’d be interesting to know what actually makes it so efficient when most other hub gears feel like…….. hub gears.

Rohloff claim theirs is more efficient that a derailleur!

Its will be about cherry picking data. While I believe the extra drag of a IGH is not as much as some folk make out to deny its theree is daft. Of course a single 2 spd planetary will be less draggy that a rohloff that in the bottom range runs thru two sets of planetary gears it must have drag.

Normal cassette on a 3 speed sturmey-archer disc brake hub is available, I think tandems use them?

Weird hub.

As soon as I saw it I thought it would be ideal for my single speed to give me a higher gear and a lower gear all with a wireless shift between the two which would be perfect.
Then I saw the hub (spoke type), cassette type etc, and quickly forgot about it before I even got to the cost.

I have one of them sa 3speeds with a 9 speed cassette on my cargo bike.

Great thing.

Loaded up it lets you drop 200% gears static without lifting the rear wheel* but doesn’t have the drag of an Alfine/nexus (the worst) or the expense and drag of a rohloff. * After an unplanned stop

But also lets you have the nice close gear gaps of the 9speed

It’s about 2k isn’t it? Bare in mind that includes a set of wheels and a cassette – it’s not that bad price wise….

Nice and super light, electronic shifting etc. but it is sort of a bling update of the old Sachs 8 speed cassette on a 3 speed hub that I have on my folder.it works very well (well the hub gear part is faultless but the derailleur needs the usual maintainable).
Save for the cable box that sticks out it would be fine for mountain biking. To make the system more budget it would probably look not unlike the Sachs system, except that it only really got used on folders and recumbents and SRAM seem to have dropped the Sachs hub gears.
Good system but see whether it takes off or goes the same way as Sachs.

The alternative view of the Sachs system is that you had all the disadvantages of hub and derailleur gears simultaneously.

Just had a search and it seems that Sturmey Archer now do a 3 speed cassette hub so you can try this type of system for the cost of a £100 hub.

https://www.sturmey-archer.com/en/products/detail/cs-rk3-silver

Rohloff claim theirs is more efficient that a derailleur!

And it’s noticeably a lie.

I wouldn’t spend the £800 or so premium over mid-high end carbon wheels to make my road bike pseudo 1x. But if they’re still around in 5 years and the price came down a bit and it meant I could swap the GX dinnerplate for a 10-36 then I’d be tempted.

Its not a lie as they have good data on it ( more effici9ent that an old worn dirty derailleur) I suspect what they have done is picked the cadence and power output to give the figures they were looking for and if you pick different parameters you get different results. similar to the idea that wider softer tyres are less draggy – anyone who has ridden a fat bike will tell you different!

https://www.rohloff.de/fileadmin/_processed_/c/f/csm_wirkungsgrad_en_46d9631a73.png

This graphs pretty in tune with how i feel when i ride my rohloff.

and backs up my feel that the alfine is horrible.

It doesn’t seem that long ago that Hammerschmidt took over the MTB world. Oh…

But imagine a Hammerschmidt AND the Classified hub. 44 gears and a massive range.

But imagine a Hammerschmidt AND the Classified hub. 44 gears and a massive range.

All the draggs

I thought you reckon the rohloff was really draggy trailrat?

I find the alfine much better once its been degreased and run in atf

i do find the rohloff really draggy

that chart isnt a shining glory when you claim its more efficient than a deraileur .

there are two gears where thats true.

My alfine 8 never got any better even after 5000km and a service so it got sold on.

Ridley have it an option on their top end gravel bike, Kanzo Fast – haven’t seen any ‘real world’ reviews though. If you are going to have a 2x transmission, then a nicer way of doing it as it apparently works better under load and far tidier than an AXS front mech.

Trailrat – less efficient that a clean well mainteained derailleur. More than a worn dirty one – thats the range of the green on the graph

I personally doubt that – I think its cherry picked data. I think at differnt cadence and torque you will get different results. High torque low cadence the IGH will be worse by my gut feeling

Trailrat – less efficient that a clean well mainteained derailleur. More than a worn dirty one – thats the range of the green on the graph

I understand variance bars.

But I also understand maintainance 🙂

It’ll be very rare you find me on a worn out drive train in a situation I’m caring about drag . Hence why the alfine lasted so long in the commuter. It was good for not giving a shit but eventually the drag got to me.

dovebiker

Ridley have it an option on their top end gravel bike, Kanzo Fast – haven’t seen any ‘real world’ reviews though. If you are going to have a 2x transmission, then a nicer way of doing it as it apparently works better under load and far tidier than an AXS front mech.

Weighs about the same as Di2, looks cleaner, shifts under load, efficient – if you believe all their claims, it really is an impressive product. Would be really nice if you could integrate it with Di2/AXS to make shifting fully sequential instead of needing the little button

Would be really nice if you could integrate it with Di2/AXS to make shifting fully sequential instead of needing the little button

Sounds good in theory, but I’d rather do it manually, without the advantage of optimising chainline there’s no need for overlapping gears though, so to make any use of it you would need a really close ratio cassette, and a wider ratio hub, then it would need to go top-bottom like a typewriter (which would never go smoothly).

Used to have the 3spd archer hub gear on a cruiser I picked up from a boot sale for £10 as a kid, it was epic.

I’d take this if they could oem it onto a decent gravel frame at under £3k. Prob never gonna happen.

Think it will be made obsolete by the 1st electronic 10-52 gravel shifter under £500 for most…

If I was semi pro or taking xx1 2x vs this I’d def take this.

Think it will be made obsolete by the 1st electronic 10-52 gravel shifter under £500 for most…

That already exists though, AXS can talk across groupsets so an Eagle mech and cassette will work with road bifters.

Although I don’t really see much point. If you compared it to a 36/46 CX chainset with a 11-34 cassette then that’s nigh on the same gearing as a 10-42 11 speed with a 42t chainring.

Sachs were building these more than ten years ago. Standard on bike Friday Tandem’s for a while. There is nothing new.