How do the above posts help?
Or is it just venting?

You’ve been offered a VC school, you can turn the offer down and find a community school further away.

The LA has met it’s duty by offering a school.

my posts ?
i agree with you the LA have met the criteria and the odds of a successful appeal are not looking good, if it goes in our favor then it will be from compassion rather than any rights we have. as we can always take a school in another location move, neither option is appealing but that is our choice.

The bit im not happy about is my wife and i being forced to sign a religious code and my child being forced to partake in religious superstitions.

the LA done their duty and have provided a place at a school for education to the national curriculum but i dont feel we should be forced to partake in mas, prayer, rain dances or any other mumbo jumbo

The bit im not happy about is my wife and i being forced to sign a religious code and my child being forced to partake in religious superstitions.

No one is being forced to do anything. You can chose not to accept.

If I felt so strongly that I was being “forced” to do something that I disagreed with, for me and my child, then I’d probably feel a huge sense of relief from being able to say “no, thanks” and looking to the next steps.

If you make that decision, I wish you the very best of luck at the appeal to win your daughter the place you want for her.

Woop, if the panel rules in your favour it WILL NOT be, in fact cannot be, one of compassion. If you appeal, the clerk should explain to you the very limited reasons why an appeal can be allowed.

My rather grumpy post above was meant in terms of, whether or not a child at the allocated school has to take part in collective worship or education has no bearing on the decision to refuse school A.

aa understood and appreciate your unbiased input on a topic that is emotive

My other half went to an RC school. She’s an atheist now. Quite possibly because of the RC schooling. She’s got a fair brain on her though. Plenty of her compatriots are mindlessly continuing the inherited religion nonsense, it seems.

No one is being forced to do anything. You can chose not to accept.

yes take your point, i could move. but it seems a little unfair in this day and age that schools within our free education system can impose religious practice on other groups Atheists, Muslims and Christians alike.

Imagine if a Catholic family was placed in a Mulsim school and not the local Catholic school and then had to sign a Muslim code of practice and agree to partake in the prayer sessions. at the end of the day the LA have fulfilled its commitment to provide a school and if they don’t like it then they can move hey.

The point is faith schools are limiting the options for education for everyone and i don’t personally believe it should be a factor but that is the system we have and this thread is not going to solve that.

In spite of my lack of patience with some of the inaccurate and ignorant (malicious or not) assertions about religion on this thread, the fact is that, having grown up in Canada, I remain amazed that religion continues to hold the place it does in public schools.

I strongly agree with Junkyard that in a school, an atheist, a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew, or whoever, should have the same education, and the same access to the same education. Even if I thought everyone should believe exactly what I believe (which I don’t), I don’t think it’s helpful for one minute to subject children – or anyone else – to public indoctrination, or forced ‘acts of worship’.

In spite of my lack of patience with some of the inaccurate and ignorant (malicious or not) assertions about religion on this thread, the fact is that, having grown up in Canada, I remain amazed that religion continues to hold the place it does in public schools.

I strongly agree with Junkyard that in a school, an atheist, a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew, or whoever, should have the same education, and the same access to the same education. Even if I thought everyone should believe exactly what I believe (which I don’t), I don’t think it’s helpful for one minute to subject children – or anyone else – to public indoctrination, or forced ‘acts of worship’.

Amen

I strongly agree with Junkyard that in a school, an atheist, a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew, or whoever, should have the same education, and the same access to the same education. Even if I thought everyone should believe exactly what I believe (which I don’t), I don’t think it’s helpful for one minute to subject children – or anyone else – to public indoctrination, or forced ‘acts of worship’.

+1. Actually, I don’t have a problem with faith schools, provided that the state doesn’t pay for them.

I don’t think it’s helpful for one minute to subject children – or anyone else – to public indoctrination, or forced ‘acts of worship’

Furthermore, it’d be pretty flippin easy to avoid.

Another can of worms there – I presume they’re allowed to do that, but it flies in the face of supposed national aims for sustainable transport to select schools based on closest driving distance. They do at least state closest walking distance here (which does potentially make a difference – though it would be kind of interesting to try and use AA routefinder for local houses which aren’t on it).

“I strongly agree with Junkyard that in a school, an atheist, a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew, or whoever, should have the same education, and the same access to the same education. Even if I thought everyone should believe exactly what I believe (which I don’t), I don’t think it’s helpful for one minute to subject children – or anyone else – to public indoctrination, or forced ‘acts of worship’.

+1. Actually, I don’t have a problem with faith schools, provided that the state doesn’t pay for them.”

+1

What happens if you refuse to sign?

Surely in this multi-faith day and age, the only rational option is to remove the religious element from all State funded schools?
Let the experts teach religion – the churches/temples/mosques/synagogues etc and keep public schooling a purely secular affair.
You can of course pay for a private religious education if it is important to you.
As above, whilst i am not a believer i have absolutely no problem with the concept of a religiously based education – i just don’t think it should be funded by the taxpayer.

To be honest, I think a state funded school with a religious aspect is the least of our worries with the academy agenda. BUT, I honestly think that with tax payers money paying for free schools with their own agendas to push then a voluntary aided or cofe school is nothing to get too worked up about. Plus, statistically, cofe schools perform better than community schools if I remember correctly. Plus, who doesn’t want diversity??
(having said that, I did suggest removing the religious criteria from vc schools on my patch a couple of years ago but was shot down by our solicitors/elected members).

Surely in this multi-faith day and age, the only rational option is to remove the religious element from all State funded schools

No.

The religious aspect should absolutely be a part of state education, so long as it’s taught in an academic fashion. Kids should be taught what Christians / Muslims / Buddhists / Atheists believe, and be able to learn from the positive tenets of all religions. It needs to be an impartial, unbiased education.

It’s when one preferred doctrine is presented as fact alongside Maths, Physics etc that we have a problem. Because kids look to teachers as purveyors of absolute fact and it’s an abuse of power to bundle an individual belief system into an educational curriculum as though they’re the same thing.

Let the experts teach religion

Let the schools teach religion. Let the experts, ie churches / mosques / whatever preach religion. That’s their raison d’etre.

Cougar, I agree with you entirely. And when you say

The religious aspect should absolutely be a part of state education, so long as it’s taught in an academic fashion. Kids should be taught what Christians / Muslims / Buddhists / Atheists believe, and be able to learn from the positive tenets of all religions. It needs to be an impartial, unbiased education.

The only thing I would add is that I wish this was done in the context of a class akin to what we in Canada used to call ‘Social Studies’: a mix of history and geography that got students to engage with places and cultures in all their facets. I think such a class would be even better than devoting a class to ‘religious studies’, as when it is divorced from the temple (or wherever), it is better seen as part of the human cultures from which it emerges. Anyway, just a thought.

Speaking if not as a “militant atheist” then certainly as an “assertive atheist,” I’m wholly behind that, it’s a brilliant idea.

Why isn’t this the default baseline? Oh, yeah, people.

Question – how can you present ‘an impartial, unbiased’ academic fashion?
Not being picky, but there are so many religious people out there with their own interpretations of their faiths i can see an endless stream of challenges to what is being taught.
I suppose i can’t see how religion can be taught ‘academically’ without constant challenge.

@muddydwarf: I doubt it would ever be perfect, but in pedagogical terms, it could be taught with the same approach as history or politics. In other words, bias will not be avoided, but admitted and then factored in as part of the study.

Maybe give the role of “RE Teacher” to agnostics?

I don’t know, I have a couple of friends of friends who are academic theologians so it’s certainly doable; whether it’s scalable across the national curriculum is another matter. But I don’t have a serious answer.

But at that level, RE needs bundling with things like History and Geography. The argument then distils to “how can you teach World War II without being a Nazi?”

in pedagogical terms

What the **** just happened here? I get you, you’re clever. Just never use that magic power shit here again, OK?

I see that point and largely agree, but would caveat that there aren’t powerful voices arguing that the teaching of C20th history is prejudicial to Nazi’s..
NOT that I’m comparing religion to Nazism by the way, just saying that religions tend to have very powerful ways of putting pressure on.

Why isn’t this the default baseline? Oh, yeah, people.

No, history, the Church has been involved in education a lot longer than the state. It seems to work as well as their schools perform. We tend to be a reasonably conservative (small c) and pragmatic country that is loath to change what may be perceived as historical anomalies that seem to function ok.

Both my sons chose to study RE (combined with philosophy and ethics) at A level. Taught by revs and other members of the RE department and taught brilliantly. Developed highly critical levels of analysis generally and of major religious texts. Level of scholarship way beyond what I was taught at school. They both note the “extreme”‘levels that teachers went to not to even hint at their beliefs and actually found that slightly frustrating.

One now even studying theology as a minor subject in first year at Uni despite being a historian and loves it.

Poor things – scared for life. I expect a call from NSPCC in the morning and the school to be closed forthwith. Shocking in this day and age.

Poor things – scared for life. I expect a call from NSPCC in the morning and the school to be closed forthwith. Shocking in this day and age.

I don’t think anyone has an issue with studying religion, it’s taking part in one religion at school that’s the issue.

Consistent with my post whilst I am a little bit surprised by the school code its absolutely appropriate and correct that the school can decide to include it. No one is obliged to attend the school. It’s a Catholic School and they are known to have a greater religious focus than CoE, argubaly less of a religious focus than a Jewish or Muslim school.

OP I would wager there are many parents at the school who are not believers in Jesus but they take the view that the academic advantages are worth accepting the religious elements which for many kids they will question as they get older and decide for themselves whether they share those beliefs.

No one is obliged to attend the school.

You have very selective reading, my friend.

The OP’s daughter has been offered a place in this school and nowhere else. A prerequisite of her attendance, if the school is to be believed, is signing up to the school’s religious bent. She is, pretty much by definition, forced to attend.

What other options do you suggest if they decline the place? Should a family be forced to move house because of enforced superstition?

I asked already but couldn’t spot an answer. What happens if the parents don’t sign up to the schools religious code but the child turns up at school?

Mate of mine is a RE(there are other strings to the qualification) teacher and on his post grad teaching course there were Christians, Buddhists, and agnostics. Because, as he said, they were to teach about religion not preach about religion.

An edict came round a few weeks ago banning us from giving our stand points on the referendum and elections. But we could have a neutral discussion. IMHO this is how religion should be taught.

Media shit storm

YOu cannot refuse a school due to not liking the religion – well you can try but you have no right

I assume the LEA – local education Authority- would get involved and it would depend on who blinked first

I think they probably would and then sent the child to another school.

Jamby would you be being so supportive if a non denomination school made all parents sign up saying they had to denounce their religious beliefs and embrace aesthetic ethos to attend- would this be

correct that the school can decide to include it

Or would it just be discrimination ?

Clearly the catholics are forcing folk to “join in” clearly only the religious and those with authoritarian tendencies defend this or in some cases those with both

@Cougar I understand that was the school offered and that the OPs first choice was not available. The OP can challenge the offer. What I’d say is that to do so on the basis of “its too religious” its quite fraught, Catholic is too religious but CoE is OK ?

I appreciate your question Junkyard but the school isn’t actually asking pupils to believe in Jesus / religion just attemd the classes and respect their rules. How hard is it to stand in morning assembly 30 mins religious content or not ? I am firmly of the veiw that parents should try and see the big picture and if the school is a good one then accept it, they can share their athiest views at home.

Clearly the catholics are forcing folk to “join in” clearly only the religious and those with authoritarian tendencies defend this or in some cases those with both

How are they “forcing folk to join in”?

I would guess that the head would prefer to have parents and pupils who want to be there for whatever reason, not that they been forced to attend.

As I said earlier, I attended RC schools. I never saw any of the things that the OP has described in his posts. Or some of the more ludicrous stuff that has been suggested by others.

There was also a small number of non-Catholic children who attended. I never remember them being forced to “join in”. They would of have to attended the weekly church service but they didn’t have to “join in”. In fact, as I remember very few of the children really “joined in” and most would of preferred to be anyway else.

There was no attempt at conversion, brain washing or listening to any serious “preaching”. It was just a school.

What do people actually think will happen if I child of atheist parents attends a faith school? AFAIK it happens a lot and isn’t seen as a big deal when the parents want their child to attend as the school is seen as “better” than the other state schools.

FWIW I would prefer that all schools were secular and if families want their children to follow a particular religion, that’s up to them.

I am not religious, I don’t attend any church.

“An education which starts from a basis of accepting flawed and sexist principles promulgated by a fundementally corrupt and morally bankrupt leadership, is not what I’d want for them. “

And all the other posts like that.
Oh how amusing. The suggestion is that the posters believe in tolerance etc. yet is significantly intolerant.
I have said it before but those spouting ” lets be nice to everyone ” are often the most intolerant of opposition.
From a primary school teacher’s perspective I would say ignore the religion, assuming you are mature enough to do so. Sounds like it. The Catholic schools that I have taught in always have a bit more cash about which maybe handy. Tolerance tends to be greater as well!

How are they “forcing folk to join in”?

By all means argue its ok for them to do this but this question is pointless unless its to show you are not comprehending the debate.

They would of have to attended the weekly church service but they didn’t have to “join in”

So there were forced to be there but they were not being forced to join in?
How exactly does that contradiction make sense to you?

Yes yes we did PE and everyone had to do it but no one had to Join in – it makes no sense as a statement.

What do people actually think will happen if I child of atheist parents attends a faith school?

Read the school mission statement
FWIW this comes from the first catholic primary school on the greater manchester website

We constantly strive to ensure that every child not only has the right to develop spiritually, but is also given the very best opportunity to reach their full potential academically, physically, emotionally and socially.

PersonallY i put my childs education above their spiritual development. I do not know an atheist who would do different – you?

http://www.christtheking.manchester.sch.uk/year-groups/year-3

Have a read of Year 3 – what aethost would not rejoice in their kids education being wasted in this way

IMHO either everyone has the right to choose what type of school their child goes to or no one does. Today we have one where only the religious can choose. I also think there is no place for religion in education but, whilst it exists, we ought to have atheist schools. its only fair.

http://www.manchester.gov.uk/directory/84/school_finder/category/833/categoryInfo/27

The list is here feel free to read their mission statements. They dont mind admitting they will try to make your kid a good catholic as this example showed its,often, more important than the actual education.

So there were forced to be there but they were not being forced to join in?
How exactly does that contradiction make sense to you?

Makes complete sense to me. To “join in” an act of worship takes a bit more than being in the same space.

Have a read of Year 3 – what aethost would not rejoice in their kids education being wasted in this way

If the school is wasting education time, how come it out performs the other schools in the LA and the UK as a whole in every metric?

We constantly strive to ensure that every child not only has the right to develop spiritually, but is also given the very best opportunity to reach their full potential academically, physically, emotionally and socially.

PersonallY i put my childs education above their spiritual development. I do not know an atheist who would do different – you?

That statement does not prioritise spiritual development over any other trait.

They dont mind admitting they will try to make your kid a good catholic as this example showed its,often, more important than the actual education.

If that’s the case why do faith schools routinely out perform others?

To “make a good catholic” it would take more than what a child gets told at school.

Interesting that you use lower case for “Catholic”. You got some issues?

To “join in” an act of worship takes a bit more than being in the same space.

So they wont need to bow their head to pray then? Really you want to claim they are not being forced – its obvious as in this case the parents dont want this to happen and the only way to be educated is to agree to the terms. I see no other definition than forced personally.

If the school is wasting education time, how come it out performs the other schools in the LA and the UK as a whole in every metric?

I think you need to re word your claim there but i think I know what you mean. I would assume the answer is that they are very good when not wasting time. That fact does negate my point.

That statement does not prioritise spiritual development over any other trait.

Yes they put it first because its not the most important thing. Its a faith school because its not the most important thing. Really you want to argue that ?

If that’s the case why do faith schools routinely out perform others?

Does not negate the point made and covered in the thread. Its definitely not casual that being catholic[ or taught by them] makes you brighter but please feel to try and argue that point.

Interesting that you use lower case for “Catholic”. You got some issues?

I am not really bothered by capitalising it or god or british etc. Not really sure what you are trying to get at tbh my disdain of all religion is well recorded on here and i dont exactly hide this fact.
My main issue is the religious making the non religious engage in their fairy tale under the ruse of “education” often against the express wishes of the parents. Granted it is harder to argue against that than it is to suggest i have “issues”.

I don’t think anyone has an issue with studying religion

We are probably reading different threads. Still, I don’t really mind as mine are past this stage having benefited greatly in the process. They can rip certain interpretations apart much better than the average aetheisr!!! So win-win for them.

I do agree that plenty have an issue with studying unevidenced gibberish at school but enough about economics 😉

If that’s the case why do faith schools routinely out perform others?

I wonder if that’s related to A) better discipline and B) stronger parental support? Re A, purely anecdotal but Mrs Pondo teaches at a non-faith school where the kids get away with murder, she has a teacher colleague (in a roughish city) at a faith school where bad behaviour is less well tolerated. Re B, no evidence to back it up, just speculatin’. Certainly, at Mrs Pondo’s school the parents seem to back their kids rather than the school, couldn’t say for a faith school.