• This topic has 308 replies, 73 voices, and was last updated 7 years ago by womp.
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  • Catholic school but we are devout atheist
  • Junkyard
    Free Member

    If womp isn’t legally entitled to refuse to have jnrs head filled with stuff that he finds nonsense then he should be!

    Problem is even worse
    the religious can get the nonsense they want and atheists cannot get the nonsense they dont want

    you then have to have an act of “christian worship” and DO re

    Schools are getting round the withdrawal from RE by claiming its ethics when 95% of the syllabus is basically religion.

    Atheists and the religious should have equal rights and equal treatment
    Its not and we our kids have to be subjected to their factless fairy tale presented as truth by an authority figure who really believes.

    IT leads to the issues DONK noted, undermines the authority of the teacher and bastardises the meaning of the word educate.

    mefty
    Free Member

    There are plenty of schools in SW London that pay lip service to their obligation to have an act of worship – it is not a one way street.

    slowoldman
    Full Member

    Interesting how views seem to have now swung round in favour of the OP from an initial stance by many of “suck it up” once the full extent of the “school code” becomes apparent. Children and their parents should not be put in this position.

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    gobuchul
    Free Member

    I have never heard of this?

    Normally the faith schools are over subscribed.

    I can’t see the parents or the school being very happy with the situation.

    the walls are littered with childrens pictures and statements next to each with things like ‘i love jesus he takes care of me’ and wow the amount of virgin Mary figurines! paper weights, door stops, usb sticks everything!

    Is this true or a bit of poetic licence?

    the other general catholic practices happen, regular prays, mass, a strange BIG virgin Mary you have to speak to in the naughty corner.

    Speaking to a giant Mary in the corner is not a “general catholic” practice.

    I was subject to 11 years of RC school and never experienced or saw anything like you describe.

    Is the school Opus Dei or something?

    Ro5ey
    Free Member

    As someone who started to go to church, to get their kids in the Vgood CoE school over the other side of town… I think the situation the OP finds himself quite wrong and I wish him luck in putting it right.

    Not got really much advise,other than… can you find any parents already at the school, who share your view ?… pound to a penny there will be some… Have a word with them, maybe they can offer advice/put your mind at rest with how they handle it with their kids??

    Good luck

    ransos
    Free Member

    There are plenty of schools in SW London that pay lip service to their obligation to have an act of worship – it is not a one way street.

    An absence of RE is not indoctrinating the children with a faith position.

    D0NK
    Full Member

    The simple fact is that the Church has it’s (rightful) place in this country provided education places

    ooh contentious

    binners
    Full Member

    You atheists realise you’re all going to burn in the fiery pits of hell, when God gets her hands on you, right?

    mefty
    Free Member

    An absence of RE is not indoctrinating the children with a faith position.

    Not suggesting it is, but it isn’t strictly within the legal requirement, which was the point I was making.

    D0NK
    Full Member

    An absence of RE is not indoctrinating the children with a faith position.

    yes, non denominational schools not recognising the ridiculous enforced daily worship rules isn’t exactly fighting back at the religious oppressors is it? It’s just quietly ignoring stupid rules, so still a “one way street”

    ransos
    Free Member

    Not suggesting it is, but it isn’t strictly within the legal requirement, which was the point I was making.

    You appeared to be suggesting an equivalence (“not a one way street”) with indoctrination. I find the suggestion absurd.

    It’s just quietly ignoring stupid rules, so still a “one way street”

    And non-dom schools still teach religious stories. My daughter came home just before Easter telling me about Jesus on Good Friday. “She was cross”, apparently.

    martinhutch
    Full Member

    Behaviour ‘contract’ sounds unenforceable, TBH. Especially as you appear to have no other options. If a child from a non-Christian faith, such as Jehovah’s Witnesses, for example, or Islam, had no option but to attend this local school, then requested exclusion from Christian activities, I don’t see that they could deny this.

    Have you spoken to the local authority about their views on this particular aspect?

    TBH, if you make enough stink about non-compliance, I imagine a solution at one of the other schools would be found, as neither side would want running battles of this nature throughout someone’s primary school career.

    EDIT: Saw that there are ‘other side of town’ options. I wouldn’t be happy, certainly. Surely there must be a family at the community school which would rather be at the Catholic school?

    womp
    Free Member

    what LA is it?

    Bolton

    Where was the catholic school in your order of your list of preferences?

    No

    Where are you on the OSL for the community school (if you applied)

    Im not sure what OSL is ?
    The community school was our first choice, our daughter already attends the pre school. it is the closer as the crow flys than the Catholic school (My daughter currently cycles to school over the golf course.) but as i found out today the method for the points system uses AA routfinder for distance and makes the Catholic school closer (although my daughter will not be able to cycle which is another kick in the stones)

    What is the Planned Admission Number for the community School.
    i assume you mean class size ? i think its 30

    To go into an appeal and effectively say “I think religion is stupid” is in no way going to help your cause.

    that my fear, thats why i chose to say our values and beliefs don’t align. im not out to offend anyone

    The simple fact is that the Church has it’s (rightful) place in this country provided education places. You might not like it but the bickering here is not going to change the fact that it exists and will continue to way beyond our lifetimes.

    True, but this is a good place to adsorb other view points vent frustration before i sit in an appeal

    interesting site:
    http://www.secularism.org.uk/religious-education.html

    Stoner
    Free Member

    this looks like a good place to put this. Latest newsletter from the National Secular Society arrived in my inbox a minute ago.

    http://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2016/04/danes-leaving-state-religion-in-droves-to-avoid-church-tax

    Danish citizens have to pay the ‘Church tax’ if they are affiliated with the church, and it can take up to 1.5% of their income. All baptised Danes are automatically made members of the church, making them liable for the tax, though Christian Today reports that just 2.4% of these members actually attend regularly.

    As in Denmark, Germans baptised in childhood automatically become members of the church and have to pay a tax to fund religious activities. Anybody who opts out of this has to pay a fee to the German government.

    wrecker
    Free Member

    No probs with jnr doing RE, there are a lot of religious people in the world so understanding their beliefs is probably a good thing. A publicly funded school stipulating adherence or even just observance of their faith whilst teaching their beliefs as gospel truth is absolutely unacceptable to me though. No way would I sign that agreement, and I’d let it be known that I intended to escalate it as far up as possible unless a mutually acceptable solution be found.

    fasthaggis
    Full Member

    a strange BIG virgin Mary you have to speak to in the naughty corner.

    Yeah,we had a BIG virgin Mary at my school,but she tended to hang around the cloakroom if you wanted to chat.

    phil40
    Free Member

    Do you have to sign the home/school agreement? I may be wrong, but as this is a local authority allocated place, then don’t the school have to take your child. They may encourage you to sign an agreement to show that the school and parent s are working together blah blah blah but actually it is the LA who are ensuring that your child gets the education.

    If the school refuse to take your child it could be an interesting situation where the LA have allocated the place, you are willing to work with the school and support their behaviour policy, but are retaining your right not to take part in acts of worship which don’t match with your own, and the school are being unreasonable.

    Otherwise it sounds like they are requiring you to sign a contract with them to get access to the education, which is a bit of a new one to me!

    I work in a secular school and have never work in a religious school so I may be wrong about what their rights are!

    Ro5ey
    Free Member

    Binner’s …. even us in God Squad feel like we’re burning in hell when having to listen to Alanis Morissette.

    😈

    mefty
    Free Member

    You appeared to be suggesting an equivalence (“not a one way street”) with indoctrination. I find the suggestion absurd.

    Again not at all, there seems to be a question as to whether this school is being cute with it obligation to allow pupils to opt out, which as I understand is a legal obligation. I was merely comparing this to the fact than many schools in our area are not really meeting their legal obligations re: assemblies. Whether you think the laws are sensible or not is another matter.

    Danish citizens have to pay the ‘Church tax’ if they are affiliated with the church, and it can take up to 1.5% of their income.

    That’s nothing its 8-9% in Germany.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Yes but you are allowed to put ‘no church’ and not pay it. They do similar in Finland.

    Stoner
    Free Member

    That’s nothing its 8-9% in Germany.

    I dont believe you. that’s a huge sum.

    binners
    Full Member

    You’re a bolshy lot you bloody godless heathens atheists. You could do with some god in your lives. And a nice cup of tea…

    gobuchul
    Free Member

    That’s nothing its 8-9% in Germany.

    It’s 8-9% of your income tax bill, not your actual income.

    womp
    Free Member

    I hear what your all saying about signing the schools code and being placed by the LA. I will probably delete all aspects of the code i dont wish to adhere to and sign onto the rest. hopfully we can reach a position that is mutually beneficial.

    also id like to point out that i have no issues with religion being in the curriculum as its key to our understanding our culture, economics and history but it should be treated no different than Greek mythology (which is way cooler).

    mefty
    Free Member

    It’s 8-9% of your income tax bill, not your actual income.

    Is correct, danger of replying too quickly, so from under 1% to 4% for top tax payers – still big numbers raises EUR 10 billion ish.

    edenvalleyboy
    Free Member

    Look at it as an opportunity to teach your child tolerance, understanding and alternative viewpoints.

    Our daughter goes to an active CofE school, whilst my other half is an atheist and I’m agnostic. She’s coming home singing songs about God etc and we take it on the chin (it’s a great school). However, everynow and then we tell her it’s a debated history/story that some people choose to believe and others don’t..and she can make up her own mind. She’s her own person…and only 4 😀

    D0NK
    Full Member

    I was merely comparing this to the fact than many schools in our area are not really meeting their legal obligations re: assemblies.

    aaaah, got ya.

    aa
    Free Member

    Well, a really quick glimpse tells me that the LA haven’t followed their own policy in that

    Information regarding the school place offered will not be given out before 16 April 2016. If you are on
    holiday when the offer letters are sent out, no special arrangements will be made to give information out to
    parents/carers before 16 April 2016.

    which is a crack I’d try and exploit.

    A panel might not care however as the Code says on or aroundthe 16th, Bolton clearly says not before the 16th.

    The OSL is the waiting list. I’d be asking where are you on it, what’s the drop out rate for the school. LA will not know how many kids wont take up the place but they’ll have an historic picture.

    If the PAN is 30 then it’s really difficult to win an appeal (but not impossible – ive lost a few). There are ‘excepted pupils’2.15 of the School Admissions Code, panels should only agree places in exceptional limited circumstances.

    Your best hope is to try for procedural error by LA or Admitting Authority (if academy or OAA)

    You’ll also want to know where the line was drawn and where you are in relation to that.

    As you can tell, I don’t give a crap about the pro/negative position of church schools. It’s an argument where opinions are polarised. My personal opinions are irrelevant. But I see both sides of the arguments in appeals…… 😉

    Panels, certainly in this part of the world, are likely to have pro church types on them.

    julians
    Free Member

    Is the Catholic school you’ve been allocated to undersubscribed (ie has less children than there are places for)?

    You’re not in Stockport are you?

    binners
    Full Member

    I doubt it. They breed like rabbits

    womp
    Free Member

    The OSL is the waiting list. I’d be asking where are you on it, what’s the drop out rate for the school. LA will not know how many kids wont take up the place but they’ll have an historic picture.

    If the PAN is 30 then it’s really difficult to win an appeal (but not impossible – ive lost a few). There are ‘excepted pupils’2.15 of the School Admissions Code, panels should only agree places in exceptional limited circumstances.

    I had a chat with admissions and the preferred school has had zero drop outs in the last 2 years as have the other less local schools, and have been told an appeal will only be upheld if its an exceptional circumstance.

    womp
    Free Member

    Is the Catholic school you’ve been allocated to undersubscribed (ie has less children than there are places for)?

    You’re not in Stockport are you?

    they are full, im sure we are taking up a space someone would want.

    Bolton

    I doubt it. They breed like rabbits

    LOL your on fire today 😆

    aa
    Free Member

    Ask them why they’ve released the decisions early when the School Admissions Code says 16th or first working day after.

    Panel members like this kind of procedural error ime.*

    *it might not be enough to win the appeal however

    womp
    Free Member

    Religious Education and the law

    Parents have the right to withdraw their child from all or any part of RE. This includes parents whose children attend a faith school. If pupils are withdrawn from RE, schools have a duty to supervise them, though not to provide additional or alternative teaching.

    http://www.secularism.org.uk/religious-education-and-the-law.html

    gobuchul
    Free Member

    womp – That’s only religious education not worship.

    http://www.secularism.org.uk/collective-worship.html

    The law in England and Wales provides that children at all maintained schools “shall on each school day take part in an act of collective worship”. Even in schools with no religious designation, the worship must be “wholly or mainly of a Christian character”.

    D0NK
    Full Member

    If pupils are withdrawn from RE, schools have a duty to supervise them, though not to provide additional or alternative teaching.

    yeah can’t be doing any of that learning while at school

    julians
    Free Member

    Seems an odd decision by the council if the Catholic school is not undersubscribed. Have a word with the council I reckon you’ll get a satisfactory resolution.

    aa
    Free Member

    How do the above posts help?
    Or is it just venting?

    You’ve been offered a VC school, you can turn the offer down and find a community school further away.

    The LA has met it’s duty by offering a school.

    aa
    Free Member

    Seems an odd decision by the council if the Catholic school is not undersubscribed. Have a word with the council I reckon you’ll get a satisfactory resolution.

    How so? It’s application of the criteria and this child vs all others who have applied.

    It could be the NO-ONE got in on religious grounds (unlikely , I know).

    Cougar
    Full Member

    There will be a considerable amount of teaching about God. not great but not the end of the world

    Not true, they cover that in Revelations.

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