[Closed] Carbon 456 - If nobody's noticed

Looks interesting but a bit difficult to tell what it actually looks like in those shots.

Are they doing a 29er? Would be very interested in one of those

i agree, the shots arent great, but it sounds like it might be rather nice.

it says on there that it was built up as a singlespeed but the shots don't show how that was done (at least I can't see on my laptop screen's resolution)

What dropouts will this have then?

Sliding dropouts in this pic at least

[img] [/img]

Personally I don't like the idea. The kind of riding I do on my 456 doesn't lend itself to carbon. I'd be too scared of damaging it from a rock strike on the down tube(every mtb I own has dints around the BB) or just crashing it. For me Carbon is reserved for the road and race bikes where performance is more important than longevity.

OMG - here we go again. It is not too difficult to make a carbon frame stronger than an alloy one. Welcome to the 21st century

stronger of course----but the impact strength of steel will be never achieved...so... what makes just a dent in your steel downtube will (very likely...) destroy your carbon downtube..

I agree, a splintered downtube would make me weep

Has to be said I do fancy one.

Got to be some of the worst quality pics on a company web site ever though

Saw that out riding last sunday around Blackamoor (near Sheffield). Looke quite tasty and was doing alright downhill

After riding and craching on pace carbon forks I'd be more than happy to have a Carbon 456, except I doubt they are going to making any EEB ones.

I share the impact concerns but it does look pretty damn nice.

Any idea of price?

[i]what makes just a dent in your steel downtube will (very likely...) destroy your carbon downtube.. [/i]

Completely arse about face I'm afraid, you could batter most CF frames with a hammer for while, maybe one or two blows would squish your steel frame. They're pretty thin walled, you know?

Wheres that video of the guy hitting a carbon frame with a hammer again?

It also depends on how you build the frame of course, you can add protective coatings or top layers, like Trek's carbon armour, or have a non-structural top weave for ablative protection... Plus probably loads of others that I've never heard of.

Pretty excited about these myself, if it works and comes in on budget, then might need to find space for one in the garage.

the video is from niner bikes, called fork hammering ..
you find it on youtube and also as an older post on the "bustedcarbon.com" site..
offtopic here anyway..
everybody has to make his own! experiences...

[url=

hammering video[/url]

If you have a look at the comments on the [url= http://www.on-one-shop.co.uk/?p=3777 ][b]carbon frame[/b][/url] section of On One's site, there's quite a bit of spiel to suggest that the 456 is going to be on the 'robustly constructed' side of things.

Stevo (from On One) is quoted on there as suggesting that the 456 will be carbon / kevlar, layed up with ballsitic layers like you get on kayaks and stab vests and suitably over engineered but without compromising weight.

LOL @ that niner video "showing off" the carbon fibre forks. He means to say that "there is no [b]visible[/b] damage" after that hammer test. The lamina of carbon fibre will be cracked, just as much as the steel fork, there's just less surface indentation.

/edit

Remember that video is a [b]sales pitch[/b], not a scientific test. There was no post-damage strength testing shown. I wonder why?

Just for JonT
[url= http://www.bikerumor.com/2009/11/18/niner-carbon-fork-still-rideable-after-being-smashed-with-hammer/ ]Niner fork still rideable after hammer blows[/url]

I am a big fan of On-One but carbon chainstays and chain slap

er Scary 😯

If they bring it in on that £499 budget I might just have to have one.

And chain slap is what old tubes and tyres are for - amongst other things.

Small stones wont smash carbon.

How many frames have people dinged on here? Of course there will be a few more than many.

Ive dinged only one (on the BB area)- Orange five so I dont think I will worry too much.

I did some fairly horrific things to carbon hockey sticks for my masters. I broke more bits of aluminium and steel than hockey sticks!

Even in realy old sticks that had been battered the hell out of the main way of making them fail was just plain bending them too far too many times.

Reading the comments it looks like they are going to make three frames: a carbon 456 with a tapered headtube, a carbon 'whippet' with 100mm XC (scandal) geometry and a carbon 29er.

bending them too far too many times.

So as long as they make the frame torsionally stiff it should be ok on that front? i.e. not make them like that noodly original-ti456 frame?

duno, if you could bend a bike frame the same distance we were bending sticks in the lab you'd have more to worry about than the relative merrits of steel Vs carbon.

I'd happily ride a carbon bike (If I could justify the price tags). The 456 may be a bargain under £500, but by the time i'd bought a new headset your heading towards commencal meta5.5 and cannondal prophet frame money.

New headset- what type does it need?

Surely producing a carbon frame is far worse for the environment than producing a steel frame? I would be really interested in any research that anyone knows about the relative carbon/pollution costs of the various materials bikes could be made from.

why would it be worse than steel?

Dig humungous hole in the ground

Dig out ore

transport from australia/china/africa to port talbot

blast furnace

ship to birmingham

add expensive hard to produce metals

melt it agiain and form into tubes

heat treat it

ship it to tiwan

weld it

heat treat it again

ship it back.

Yes it can be recycled, but thats only a fraction of the energy cost!

Id wager that prety much the entire CF production process takes place on Tiawan.

I really have no idea if it is worse, I just think, "oh, plastic must be worse." But I genuinely don't know. That's why I'd be really interested in finding out.

How is CF produced?

CF comes from oil (via polymer) as most plastics do

Carbon fiber
Carbon fibers are filaments of carbon that can be used to make very strong yarns and textiles. Carbon fiber items are often produced by spinning and weaving the desired item from fibers of a suitable polymer, and then pyrolyzing the material at a high temperature (from 1500 °C to 3000 °C).

The first carbon fibres were made from rayon, but polyacrylonitrile has become the most common starting material.

for the non chemists..................

imagine an acrylic jumper, burn it, then cover the remains in glue.

(not strictly true, you make the thread, burn it, weave it into the jumper then cover in glue)

Well, hopefully, you soak it in the glue rather than just cover but... 🙂

Do you take the jumper off first? I don't have an acrylic jumper can I use merino? Would that be lighter?

Depends, I once saw a video of a certain Polish yacht builder who's name implies they're German.

The main layup was litteraly dispensed form a big hose pipe!

Interesting project, wonder who else's Carbon bikes are coming off that line? Merida? Good price point though and should be Brit proof given the lineage.

Interesting - I'd have reckoned that without wetting the fibres, it would be a lot weaker/less stiff for the weight... Maybe it's just not practical on that scale?

I wonder how many people on this thread actually want one- i.e. I bet most of you do. I know I do. Its an exciting proposition.

Hora, what's this about the Ti456's noodliness- I've noticed you mention it a few times, but I've never felt the frame flexed anywhere it shouldn't?

carbon frames can be stronger than any metal, fact.. I have watched over 30 videos of carbon being hit and then being ridden after, do the same to any metal and it can fold at the dent / impact point, carbon can be repaired, a dented metal frame on the whole is trash after... Scott bikes designer did a Donwhill run and came off the bike, it bounced around 60ft down a hill, they retrieved it, big hole near the BB, he rode for the rest of the day with the hole and then patched it up that night.... now that is confidence in his design, apparently he said, its a hole, but due to the layering it is still as strong! I am confident with carbon (no I no longer have a carbon bike) but technology has moved on and they are now very strong, easy to repair and pretty crash resistant, and well made carbon does not explode and splinter like people think it does (note the well made point).

Interesting - I'd have reckoned that without wetting the fibres, it would be a lot weaker/less stiff for the weight... Maybe it's just not practical on that scale?

The fibers are wet and come out like a slurry/aerosol from a big (think firemans hose sized) pipe . Its a bit like using CSM but they lay up 60' boats in minutes/hours rather than days.

It results in a higher than ideal %age of resin so they don't have a very good strength to weight ratio.

actualy I take (some) of that back, its not bavaria, its someone else, although i do remember thinking "wow thats quick" and "I never want to crash one of those into somethignmore susbstancial than a toopick"

Hora, what's this about the Ti456's noodliness- I've noticed you mention it a few times, but I've never felt the frame flexed anywhere it shouldn't?

Maybe heavier riders. Ive noticed one other describe it the same. a sort of old steel roadbike sag- Put your foot on one pedal and you can clearly see lateral flex in the bb area. Thats probably why its such a good frame for riding down technical trails I guess. I prefer stiffer hardtails though.

Ah, right, you're not talking about typical woven cf but short fibre stuff, that makes sense then. I can see a lot of bike parts being made that way in the future - proper cf reinforced plastic - just pour into a mould! It's already being used on some components (Trek suspension rockers IIRC)

Was reading the build system for the Pinarello Dogma that they mould the frame around a styrene core then melt the core our.

Put your foot on one pedal and you can clearly see lateral flex in the bb area.

I challenge you to find a bike that's not true for - even really stiff track bikes 🙄

All frames flex if you do that. Well, unless you're going to build one so massively overbuilt that it weighs more than you do.

Clubber your right of course, but they kinda just do, I had a Tinbred (not 456) and now got a Scandal, the Scandal just goes faster when you pedal it and though yeah it flexes, it doesnt flex the same as the Tinbred. Them track bikes and TT bikes are really well built in those areas to stop just that, OK it might not be stopped but def reduced.

I'm not saying it's not flexy (though the one I tried seemed ok) but just that the foot on one pedal test is a load of B*****ks in deciding if a frame is flexy.

clubber I felt it- so I decided to see if the BB flexed and was surprised by how much.

Ja maybe, and to be honest I dont know how much is in my head that the scandal is faster, but it does seem to climb better, and the builds are close to identicle except the scandal has some heavier duty stuff on it.....

Was suprised to see the amount of flex in my Roberts around the bb.

So is the idea that carbon fibre bikes are not as bad for the environment as steel bikes widely held? Is it true?

So is the idea that carbon fibre bikes are not as bad for the environment as steel bikes widely held? Is it true?

In all honesty I suspect it's much of a muchness. I certainly doubt that you can ponce around smugly on either a carbon or steel bike and proclaim that you are greener to any significant degree than someone on the other because of it.

Anyone remember the Brant interview where he was on about carbon bikes being easy to make or something and its just a woman slapping stuff on a mold, no soul or passion going into carbon frames or some load of old twaddle. Bet on-one are doing carbon just cuz Ragley wont. Or Something.

I suspect the impact of either is negligable, there'll be a bigger impact shipping it 14,000miles in a hugely oversized cardboard box.

I'm sure if they put their collective minds to it they could fit twice as many frames in a container if they weren't individualy boxed.

what boils my piss is bamboo/coconut/virgins pubes being woven into the CF to give it some wonderfull properties and eco-mentalist appeal.

Too right. I much prefer the pixie dust added to 'real' steel frames and zingy Ti ones by bearded frame-building gurus who never make mistakes and provide a custom bike that handles like a pig 😉

I'm sure if they put their collective minds to it they could fit twice as many frames in a container if they weren't individualy boxed.

Anyone remember the Brant interview where he was on about carbon bikes being easy to make or something and its just a woman slapping stuff on a mold, no soul or passion going into carbon frames or some load of old twaddle.

Eh?! But Planet-X you know. Make carbon frames?

exactly 🙂

although my cannondale f500 is bringing me arround to believeing that flex is a bad thing that should be eliminated at all costs, that thing's a rocket ship!

[url=

test on a cannondale carbon frame[/url]

ballsof- that looks like shock absortion/shock displacement helps the carbon alot better?

Apparently CF is 95% recyclable.

I'm told.

Official STW FACT