My sister wants to buy a house, seemingly to rent but I think also possibly to live in herself within a couple of years.

Looking a relatively cheap properties in a ready to rent state.

Personally I wouldn’t go near buy to let having had experience of not-even-terrible tennants staying in my partner’s flat (now sold). But, She’s late forties, no pension, low income, but has a decent deposit from sooner inheritance. Has two kids 15 & 17 possibly about to “leave the nest” albeit there’s still a reliance, but might have time and energy to put into it.

She’s looking to me for advise and possibly to go in on it with her, but with the recent housing bubble and impending financial doom, I just don’t see it as the right time to be buying. Am I just being a pessimist? Is there ever a bag time to buy a house for long term?

If she’s buying to live in within 2 years I’d steer clear as you’ll partly be her landlord.

I don’t reckon that now is a significantly worse time than any other, but it doesn’t sound like she’s in the best place to ride any uncertainty out.

Read that housing prices may have reached a peak so only one way to go (well two if you count not increasing).

Stamp duty holiday shortly to end.

Where are the children “leaving the nest” to go?
If it’s university there’s significant cost involved.

Doesn’t sound like the best idea, but 🤷🏻‍♂️

Tempted here too.

My daughter is 14, got enough set aside for her for a deposit on a flat. Buy it now, rent it out, if she moves in mibbe 8-10 years, then a chunk of the mortgage is paid off.

It’s hassle, but I think it’ll be worth it to get her a foot up.

There are always reason not to and not to, and property prices have been about to fall for years but still they go up. It’s not an easy choice but as a long term investment I’d say it’s generally a safe bet. It is still a job, not just buy it and watch the money roll in. It also depends what you like. It interests me and I like the work involved. Certainly the best investment I’ve ever made. It’s not for everyone though. It shouldn’t be your only investment and it shouldn’t stretch you to the limit imo.

If you can get the property cheap I would say so. You know the score tho – bank on 9 months rent a year and a decent budget to get it right etc etc

She might do better to buy a flat in the uni town they go to.
Some uni housing rent out student accom through the summer too, well they certainly usef to.

How about not treating housing, which is essential, as a “commodity” to be toyed with, and telling them to invest in stocks and shares.

A small private landlord is generally the “worst” in society. I have friends that ended up moving 3 times in five years, simply because every house they rented turned out to be a house the landlord had tried to sell but hadn’t had interest. After 12m, each time, they were given notice so the property could be re marketed.

Unlike stocks and shares, a house is not just an investment, its someones home, with everything that brings. If your sister finds she cant pay the mortgage, due to some “emergency”, that’s someones home that gets repossessed. If the renters cant keep up with rising rents, that’s their “home” they lose. If the central heating busts, has she the wherewithal to fix it, immediately? Its someones home.

Arguably buy to let investors do nothing but push up prices, skewing the housing market. Greed for a “commodity” by those with money, keeping an essential item out of the reach of those who could really use it. i think BTL is one of the hidden social evils of our age.

If she has a deposit, why does she need your investment? I’d steer clear, TBH – if you need your money out and she’s not in a position to buy you out, which seems likely, then all kinds of family strife will follow.

Read that housing prices may have reached a peak so only one way to go (well two if you count not increasing).

Sadly for anyone trying to buy, particularly first timers, someone has been saying this since the 90s that I can remember. It’s a bubble that just keeps on going.

Arguably buy to let investors do nothing but push up prices, skewing the housing market. Greed for a “commodity” by those with money, keeping an essential item out of the reach of those who could really use it. i think BTL is one of the hidden social evils of our age.

Where would people live if rental properties weren’t available?

A small private landlord is generally the “worst” in society.

Having spent 15 years on the government side of the private rental sector, I’d suggest that’s a gross over simplification.

And we wouldn’t be using property as a commodity if the government set about resolving 30-40 years of failure to invest in adequate provision of social housing

Sales market seems to be turning right now, there are 4 similar houses for sale on the street I may buy in. Quick sense check is I look at what they last sold for and compare to national average over that period, they are way over priced and no reason for it.

I ve been a landlord, small private, thanks for the comment above, very educated, for 20 years. 1 tenant out of say 15 has looked after the place like he owns it, does little jobs, rarely says anything. All the others have paid their rent and that’s about it. The loyal guy gets rewarded by paying lower than market rent and if things went bad, would get a decent rent holiday.

The worst tenants have been true shockers, no respect for neighbours, lived like pigs. They were professional workers too and passed all checks.

So to op wait for a good deal and go for it, they come up but sell quickly.

A small private landlord is generally the “worst” in society.

I 100% agree with this, unfortunately STW seems to be infected with a lot of these buy to let types.

Where would people live if rental properties weren’t available?

Maybe people would be able to then afford to buy a house of their own if most of their wages weren’t being bled dry by parasitic landlords. And maybe house prices would be allowed to fall because housing wouldn’t be seen as an ‘investment’, instead being a place to call home.

Yes there would still be demand for renting houses, but you’re out of your mind if you think it’s the preferred option for the majority of people.

A single, small property isn’t going to generate a huge income after tax (if applicable), mortgage, insurance, letting agent fees etc.

Also you need a chuck of cash in float for unexpected repairs, if the property is vacant for a period of time, if a tenant trashes it etc.

I have no problem with people who are landlords with only a single property but they often find it’s not an efficient way to make money and ties up capital that could be better used elsewhere.

Your sister needs to do a proper costing factoring in a proper contingency fund and see if it’s actually worth doing. Then there’s the hassle of dealing with tenants. Even if you use a letting agent you’ll still get calls about stupid things the tenants want/ need.

I know people who are losing money each month on a single buy to let but because their property is in negative equity they can’t get shot of it. Dabbling in BTL isn’t always fun 🙂

Maybe people would be able to then afford to buy a house of their own if most of their wages weren’t being bled dry by parasitic landlords. And maybe house prices would be allowed to fall because housing wouldn’t be seen as an ‘investment’, instead being a place to call home

Private landlords fill the void left by governments – of all colours – failing to provide adequate affordable social housing. Consider the cause and not the symptom

A small private landlord is generally the “worst” in society. I have friends that ended up moving 3 times in five years, simply because every house they rented turned out to be a house the landlord had tried to sell but hadn’t had interest. After 12m, each time, they were given notice so the property could be re marketed

There are also a lot of ‘accidental landlords out there, people who have to rent a property because they just can’t sell it, they’ve moved in with a partner or had to move away for work or whatever and it just isn’t selling. Would you rather it just sat empty for a year and bankrupted them while they paid the mortgage and maybe a bridging loan or rented on one nearer work? Makea much sense to rent it out and have someone live in it until sells than have it empty

Private landlords fill the void left by governments – of all colours – failing to provide adequate affordable social housing. Consider the cause and not the symptom

And why is it that they fail to provide affordable social housing? Could it be because they have a vested interest in keeping it that way because a lot of them are also landlords themselves?

If private landlords really filled the void of social housing, renting wouldn’t be so exorbitantly expensive.

@tetrode your solution is that private landlords (all of whom are evil apparantly) should let below market even if they lose money doing so?

Read that housing prices may have reached a peak so only one way to go (well two if you count not increasing).

Sadly for anyone trying to buy, particularly first timers, someone has been saying this since the 90s that I can remember. It’s a bubble that just keeps on going.

Agreed, it’s sad. For lots of reasons, none earthshattering I wasn’t able to buy a place until I was 40.

House Prices have always out-paced my salary despite a modestly decent career.

Prices do occasionally drop, as they did in 2008-ish, but it’s short-term, usually they just stop rising for a bit, but it rarely helps FTBers as the first thing that happens in a House Price correction is all the FTB type mortgages go.

I don’t think it will ever change, it seems once people get on ‘the ladder’ they forget how hard it was to get there and will do anything in their power (voting, challenging planning etc) to protect the swindle.

At least houses are being built again (restrictions notwithstanding)

your solution is that private landlords (all of whom are evil apparantly) should let below market even if they lose money doing so?

No I’m saying private landlords shouldn’t exist at all. If a landlord is failing to earn money from their property, may I suggest getting a real job? Learn to code, go stack shelves, pull themselves up by the bootstraps, anything other than draining the wealth from others.

Also nowhere did I say they were all evil. All immoral though? Yes.

Maybe people would be able to then afford to buy a house of their own if most of their wages weren’t being bled dry by parasitic landlords. And maybe house prices would be allowed to fall because housing wouldn’t be seen as an ‘investment’, instead being a place to call home

“Parasitic” is a bit harsh, but I understand your anger.

We can’t deny there’s a House Issue in the UK, and yes lots of LL’s are greedy people who don’t care about their tenants. Rental inflation is even higher than House Price inflation, it’s horrible to move into a new rented place, make it home, spend time and money on making it move than the usual white walled, featureless rental place and then when it’s more convenient for your landlord to sell up or find a tenant who’ll pay £200 a month more to be told to jog on.

We got into a huge battle with our last landlord, we were being harassed daily to move out, even though we were moving heaven an earth to get the paperwork sorted on our new place and by-law they couldn’t chuck us out, it became quite heated, in the end I gave them two options, STFU and we’ll move the very day we can, or prepare to have no rent paid for 3 months and be shopped to HMRC about the cash element of the rent they insisted on. That wasn’t fun, but then, telling a family of 4 to leave their home NOW wasn’t either. They saw nothing wrong it doing that, it was just more convenient for them for us to be elsewhere.

No I’m saying private landlords shouldn’t exist at all. If a landlord is failing to earn money from their property, may I suggest getting a real job? Learn to code, go stack shelves, pull themselves up by the bootstraps, anything other than draining the wealth from others.

So profiteering from food is OK? Profiteering from coding is fine too, no need to provide that for free, that’s a real job. It’s just housing that you can’t profit from is it? Everything in society is paid for, even water, and someone is making some money somewhere.

There absolutely should be more social housing and more should be put on developers to provide it, but this is nothing to do with private landlords as a whole. We need rental housing at the moment and that isn’t changing anytime soon. Plenty of good landlords out there, and tenant rights are generally very good, still lots of room for improvement though.

For me the moral issue with renting is about behaviour. Provide a home for someone for a fair rent is one thing, ripping off people in need is another.

We need rental contracts with long term security, we need legislation around fair rents and charges and also about quality of housing. Tenants rights in the UK are shite.

I speak as an accidental landlord. I do my best to provide a nice home for someone for a fair rent

No I’m saying private landlords shouldn’t exist at all. If a landlord is failing to earn money from their property, may I suggest getting a real job?

So… are you saying they should earn money from it, or they shouldn’t? I’m confused.

I used to be a landlord – kept my old house when I bought this one. Some would call that ‘accidental’ but thats bs – renting a house out is a lot of effort, no-one is even remotely accidental when they do so – they are intending on making money out of other people, and are taking deliberate actions to do so.

I sold up just over a year ago. Prior to that the house was relatively little work, and highly lucrative (I recon the value when I moved out was £260k, when I sold 5 years later I got £340k. During that time I was pulling in £1250 in rent, and had mortgage costs of <£250, total wear and tear and other costs was <£3k so I made ~£135k on a deposit of £50k).

I decided to exit as successive governments are increasing tax and burden on landlords, to make the investment less attractive. I have no problem with this but think it is very likely to continue – its an easy vote winner and an easy tax raiser in one go. I also didn’t really like the ‘threat’ of a tenant call at any time of day or night (didn’t use an agent) although in reality this didn’t really happen – this might be because the house was in great condition when we moved out (everything working 100%) – I think if we’d kept it a further 5 years there would have been more work to do.

so – having been there, I wouldn’t. But I can understand why some do.

I blame Thatcher
And this time she is totally responsible
Selling off council housing for a pittance, then not ensuring more council housing was acquired
Plus the insane rise of property values
Plus the btl mtg interest offset
Plus self assessment mortgages

I am a landlord, i provide a warm, safe, and secure property at a reasonable price to a tenant who would not get many points to qualify for council housing

she certainly started it but because successive governments have perpetuated right to buy from what I understand even if a local authority tried to build social housing themselves for every one that got bought by a tenant they’d have to build 5 more.

@tetrode so what should a private landlord or someone intending to become one, do? Did you ever think that they might already have a job? And they are investing their money as best they can? They are just working within the system – it is that which is to blame.

To say they are all immoral is so naive…as is most of what you say.

I blame Thatcher
And this time she is totally responsible
Selling off council housing for a pittance, then not ensuring more council housing was acquired

Can I also blame Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron, May and Johnson for doing **** all about it since?

Secure, affordable housing would make the biggest societal difference to the country in the next couple of generations. Invest in it now, under cover of Brexit/Covid recovery if necessary, on brownfield sites, use green technology, cycle infrastructure and public transport as part of the process.

In two generations time the jobs created and enhanced life opportunities, plus savings in social services, welfare costs, criminal justice system, it would pay for itself practically *

*Maybe not, but worth a try.

Private home ownership seems to be a British obsession, I have German friends who are quite happy to rent all their lives. Their landlord is a property company so no interest in selling, just collecting rent. Apparently they can live all their lives in the same place and rents can only increase by a regulated %.

UK govt throws everything it can to support the housing market, the current stamp duty holiday has cost c4bn of taxpayers money and just stoked up the market.

How about not treating housing, which is essential, as a “commodity” to be toyed with,

I’ve been saying this for years. The reason people are priced out of the housing market in the UK is because people buy it as an investment for profit rather than it being considered an essential that everybody needs

and tenant rights are generally very good,

I’m sorry but I’m not going to let that pass. That is such unutterable ****. I can’t believe you have the naivety to write that…..

Private home ownership seems to be a British obsession, I have German friends who are quite happy to rent all their lives. Their landlord is a property company so no interest in selling, just collecting rent. Apparently they can live all their lives in the same place and rents can only increase by a regulated %.

UK govt throws everything it can to support the housing market, the current stamp duty holiday has cost c4bn of taxpayers money and just stoked up the market.

It is, the current obsession is a combination of snobbishness, it’s not uncommon, even on the lefter than left STW to look down and even worry about neighbours because “they’re only renting”, a major driving force behind it though is the proliferation of Small-Scale Private Landlords, and frankly a lot of people who think BTL is a way to quick wealth.

I rented for years, and the situation for a lot of people is pretty rough, very few people want to move every 12 months, very few people will feel comfortable being told their rent is going to rise anywhere between 10%-25% every year because “that’s the market”, few people are comfortable that their LL isn’t a large property co with a team of maintenance people on staff, but in fact Dave down the road who, is incredibly hard to get hold of when the boiler breaks down or asks “do you mind waiting until the end of the month, because my mate the Gas engineer is on holiday and I have to wait until payday” because “I’d have to if it was my Boiler”.

Not to mention the sort of decisions people who rent their whole lives face at retirement.

Even the ruthless, money obsessed US has stricter tenancy rules than the UK including rent control and open-ended tenancies.

I’m a landlord. We have a lot of properties. Some we have purchased as buy to let, others we have built. Current project is building a block of 8 flats. These will all be let out once completed.
Our oldest flats we have had since 2010. They are part of another business we purchased, basically 3 flats above a large convenience store. We have had the same set of tenants since 2010, there has been one rent increase for them in that time, 5% over 10 years. 3 flats and the same tenants have remained there happy.
For us we try our best to be fair to the tenants, and hope we get treated fairly in return. I’m not interested in making a quick buck from them, in fact we don’t draw a wage from their rental, it all goes back into costs relating to the property. Yes we use the tenants rent to pay for electricians, gardeners etc and for general costs related to shared areas, but that’s in everyone’s interest. I’ve just spent £9k on installing fibre into a block of flats to help the tenants work from home.
We are certainly not immoral. I see it as a partnership between myself and the tenant. I’m in it for the long term, so any short term gains are just not worth it. I take out 15 year mortgages and my objective is to end up with a valuable asset at the end of the 15 years. I won’t be selling any as long as the business is still viable.
As Cynic-al says, don’t blame the people who can work within the system.
And what real job should a landlord get? Two of my other businesses have come with properties attached to them. Should I give them away when I purchased the land? I’ve regenerated a small shopping district, relaid the car park, new lighting, put in 3 electrical charging points and reworked the layout of the car park to remove overnight HGVs and travellers from the area.
Our next project later in the year is to regenerate an old derelict petrol station that is an eyesore. Still going through planning at the moment but hoping this will become a commercial property with 2 flats above it. But it will look significantly better than it does now.

Can I also blame Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron, May and Johnson for doing **** all about it since?

I think anyone who’s read any of my centrist, pro-Blair/Brown posts will know which way my politics lean, but House Prices rose at their highest rate, for the longest period under Blair, at the same time as House Building was as it’s lowest point.

A lot of the economic boom of the pre-Credit Crunch era was due to restrictive rules on building new homes, back then everyone thought it was brilliant. I had colleagues who were putting deposits on plots of land before the house builder had even turned up on site, and selling them for 10%-20% profit when the diggers turned up. 10% prices rises in 12 months was ‘normal’ and everyone thought we’d finally invented alchemy.

In 2005 I nearly bought a flat for £75k, I knew I needed to pull my finger out because the last time a flat in that block was up for sale in 2001 (when I first started a ‘proper job’) it was £45k. Rather than needing a deposit I could actually get a mortgage that would pay the full cost, AND £3k extra for furniture, decorating or a nice Holiday. The only reason I didn’t was because before I could fill in the application someone else offered £80k, despite the fact I’d actually had my offer accepted. At the time, this all seemed normal, celebrated even.

It was probably worth £100k by the time Lehmann and Blackrock et all went bust, when it’s value would have collapsed to as a low as £90k-ish, for about 6 months when it recovered, despite years of post-credit crunch, ‘great recession’, then Brexit and now Covid it’s now worth £140k.

I was going to post about house prices in general the other week as I’m looking due to a relationship breakdown, the prices right now seem mental, I’d probably wait till after the budget if you can

My move is time sensitive and I may rent for 6 months to see how things pan out, houses in the South Wales valleys are going for on ave 30% what they were 2 years ago, I realise theres been a mini boom but these are terraces on the valleys not places with massive gardens etc.

And why do some people always put theirs on for £60k more than they paid two years ago with absolutely no work on the property carried out!?! People are currently still buying I guess…crazy

But OP, I’d wait till the spring if you do go ahead, although I wouldn’t go into joint ownership mind

I can’t see Sunak letting house prices fall too much in the current situation, esp as Gove seems to have stopped UK PLC exporting. If they start dropping they’ll just restart the stamp duty holiday – anything to kick start the economy.

Well, I spoke with my sister yesterday and it was a pretty brief conversation steering her away from it. She has other things to deal with first, like the reason she might need somewhere to live for herself soon.

My limited experience of being an accidental landlord was terrible. Tenents could pretty much trash the place and walk away with a minimal deduction from their deposit return. It wasn’t for us to make money, just allow the flat’s value to recover from the 2008 crash. Just about walked away from it evens and very happy not to be a landlord ever again.