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That may be the case (personally I think not in Scotland’s case but it’s moot and we have a thread for that discussion) but I’m not sure how you imagine this will change their direction of travel.
Edit: this lot don’t GAS. Being in power later is irrelevant to them. Brexit is a means to an end. So long as it’s done in the time they have is all they care about.
I don't believe it will change the direction of travel one iota.
People have to understand, Brexit isn't the destination, it's just the vehicle.
Which is why I just use any energy to:
1 Call out prominent Leavers and supporting politicians for pushing that Brexit is anything other than an assault on ordinary folks' rights and will make the UK poorer and with less influence.
2 Ridicule (ordinary) Leavers for their sheer stupidity in continuing to fall for the Brexit fraud.
3 Push for Scottish Independence.
There will be a lot of angry gammons shouting “but this isn’t what I voted for”
No chance.
They will go silent and pretend not to know anything about Brexit (observe how no one who thought Brexit was a good idea on the original thread is to be seen on this one), or it will be "it's good that we have to employ 50000 customs agents - people need jobs. **** the EU for doing this to us".
Years and years of this shit to go.
2 Ridicule (ordinary) Leavers for their sheer stupidity in continuing to fall for the Brexit fraud.
Don't see that one as constructive, sorry. Much better to have a civil conversation and point to the evidence of why this is a bad idea and where the facts will be distorted to convince people that the EU are to blame.
Ridiculing people won't help reverse or mitigate this disaster. It'll just force people into an entrenched position, which isn't consistent with your goals. Look at the US, 40+% still likely to vote for Trump!
Don’t see that one as constructive, sorry.
I realised when the huge Remain March was ignored along with the various petitions that it was a lost cause.
Much better to have a civil conversation and point to the evidence of why this is a bad idea and where the facts will be distorted to convince people that the EU are to blame.
See above, it's pointless, much better to accept the inevitable and move on, so:
Plan A - Scottish Independence
Plan B - move to an EU country
From MCTD's link:
Mersham used to be a 20-minute walk from Sevington. Closure of the path for construction work means it’s now an almost 4-mile (6.4-kilometer) drive.
So now they can get there faster as it takes less time to drive 4 miles.
And 'they' say there are no positives to Brexit!
How are my mental gymnastics doing today? 😁
Yesterday was a good day to bury bad news. The government has just paved the way to tearing up animal welfare standards and opening the UK up to chlorine-washed chicken and hormone-injected beef
Yay for 'Taking Back Control'
https://twitter.com/CarolineLucas/status/1315755708919541761?s=20
Yet another thing to add to the ever-lengthening list of stuff that we're just meant to trust them with, but that there's definitely no need to enshrine in law. Trustworthy men of their word that they are
Did anyone else see the Dispatches program last night?, its not exactly news to the informed majority on here but hopefully it will raise the issues of what a “World beating trade deal” with the USA could entail.
Seen 'Dirty Secrets of American Food'? Watch it here on All 4:
Richpenny the evidence for the stupidity of brexit was established some time ago, pointing to evidence in respect to leavers is simply pointing out their stupidity.
The only possible acceptance was the post brexit shit show but the Tory "dead cat" approach to politics has buried that in their dismal handling of covid.
No management team in the real world would have survived their absolute dire handling of this and they are getting worse now its just bojo trying to keep everyone happy.
This government can literally kill people, lie, take away livelihoods, make thousands seriously ill, appoint completely inadequate people (Dido) give contracts to "friends"without scrutiny and still have the brass neck to talk about moon shots and dashboards.
They have all but abandoned the North of England like some plauge ship safe in the knowledge that their young attending Durham, Newcastle are not likely to die.
**** me this is a epic failure. We should be on the streets or having a Covid (Jarrow) march and spread the joy.
Ridiculing people won’t help reverse or mitigate this disaster.
They accuse you of ridiculing them when all you are doing is pointing out the obvious facts.
And it then descends with wearying inevitability, but remarkable speed into threats of violence or a flounce or "la la la I'm not listening to a liberal elite ponce like you". Every time.
This "you spilled my pint, I'm going to smack you" inferiority complex disguised with aggression and bullshit is what got us here in the first place.
Did anyone else see the Dispatches program last night?,
Oven-ready e-coli
Ridiculing people won’t help reverse or mitigate this disaster. It’ll just force people into an entrenched position, which isn’t consistent with your goals. Look at the US, 40+% still likely to vote for Trump!
Good point - except that the vote has already happened. No point trying to have that argument again now - all that remains is to wait for the Brexshiteers to experience the dole queue like they voted for.
These people whom we must not patronise would rather sit in their own shit than accept evidence..
We must never ever underestimate the lack of understanding this section of our society has.. they live on a dietb of Facebook, jingoism, lager and mcdonalds. They belive the shit fed to them on a daily basis as it feeds their previously installed fears.
They will suffer post covid/brexit more than anyone else, they will suck it up like a toddler sniffing a fart.
So now they can get there faster as it takes less time to drive 4 miles.
And ‘they’ say there are no positives to Brexit!How are my mental gymnastics doing today? 😁
You are a government advisor and I claim my £5
Will see if my MP rebelled in the vote last night, she's developed a bit of a backbone in recent months.
Also the Tory/ERG/Vote leave absolutely understand this and have fed this beast for many years.
And it then descends with wearying inevitability, but remarkable speed into threats of violence or a flounce or “la la la I’m not listening to a liberal elite ponce like you”. Every time.
That's why skill, tact and diplomacy are required.
Well put Molgrips. I've managed to have some civil conversations around Brexit. So it's not impossible. Yes, might need to hold the tongue on occasion. Don't think I've convinced anyone, IN MY ENTIRE LIFE, to come towards my way of thinking by calling them stupid.
Am actually starting to loose my rag a bit here. I'm thoroughly convinced that the relentless portrayal of all Brexiteers as a mass of blithering idiots contributed to the scenario we're in now and will continue to mean that dog whistle politics controls the agenda going forward. Please convince me that I'm wrong, but you'll have to do better than calling me stupid.
I’m thoroughly convinced that the relentless portrayal of all Brexiteers as a mass of blithering idiots contributed to the scenario we’re in now and will continue to mean that dog whistle politics controls the agenda going forward. Please convince me that I’m wrong, but you’ll have to do better than calling me stupid.
Now you know how some Germans felt in the 1930's...
I genuinely struggle to be civil, knowing things like this:
People making bad emotional decisions based on ignorance/prejudice, wound up by cynical politicians and tabloid newspapers - I don't really respect that and I think it deserves to be criticised. Genuinely at a loss as to how to engage constructively. Mind you I don't think I know one person IRL who supports Brexit, so I guess I don't need to, but that tells it's own story.
Am actually starting to loose my rag a bit here. I’m thoroughly convinced that the relentless portrayal of all Brexiteers as a mass of blithering idiots contributed to the scenario we’re in now and will continue to mean that dog whistle politics controls the agenda going forward
Well put. The dog whistles work both ways.
Genuinely at a loss as to how to engage constructively
Why bother? It's the very definition of a pointless exercise. Can't change it now. I'm just steadily disengaging from people like this. I mean I'm polite and everything but I don't really see why I should try to change their mind.
Well put. The dog whistles work both ways.
I agree, but it's hard, my racist, ignorant brexit supporting sister in law being a case in point, she prides herself on ignorance, watching her screw up the lives of her 2 kids because she doesn't believe in things like homework or parents evenings is tough to watch
Her rejection of education has been fed by the xenophobia & anti elite narrative of the brexiteers,: the culture war they are using to push this disaster through
Its so frustrating
I mean I’m polite and everything but I don’t really see why I should try to change their mind.
Because you need to. For all our sakes.
People form their opinions from those around them, from when they are babies onwards. It's a huge effect. There have been famous psychological experiments where they get the subjects to do all sorts of questionable and downright horrible things because that's what everyone else is doing. So if someone is surrounded by Brexiters, that's what they will continue to be, in most cases. If they see someone being pro-EU, they'll all fall over each other to agree because they will all validate each other's opinions.
And just to be clear - pro-EU people and progressives of all kinds do exactly the same thing. EVERYONE does it. We do it on this thread - we fall over each other to direct vitriol at Brexiters.
However, it is also possible to argue rationally against Brexit, so if you are rational that's what you need to do. You need to help people think about what's going to happen, provide alternative points of view and get them to listen. But they absolutely categorically will not ever listen if you upset them. It's not easy, but it can be done. You need to find common ground. If you are working class and they are too - then that's your way in. If you are from their area, that is also a way in. You talk about 'us' and focus on what you have in common. And don't use hyperbole. Get them to think by asking the right questions.
Get them to think by asking the right questions.
Good luck with that.
I'm with molgripd on this. Lowering ourselves to bigoted stereotypical views of Brexieers kind of removes any moral high ground to try and persuade them they were mistaken.
My dad is beginning to realise the damage his leave vote has caused, and will continue to cause, and we've had some good discussions around it. My mum still hasn't forgiven me for calling her an idiot and won't talk to me about it 🤷♂️
However, it is also possible to argue rationally against Brexit, so if you are rational that’s what you need to do.
It's not about rational argument for many Brexiters though, it was an instinctive emotional decision to 'reject elites', 'kick out immigrants' and 'not let the EU push us around'.
Fact-based rational arguments is just more yada yada yada from snobbish liberals and they're not interested. In fact winding up snobbish liberals and their 'facts' seems to be a big part of the fun.
I do not buy this argument at all. All you can do is point out the utter stupidities of brexit. Its not a rational debate - they are wedded to their positions either by not wanting to admit they have been fooled or because they only see it thru the less of xenophobia. Its pointless trying to change someones mind when it not a rational decision
I have noticed brexiteers shutting up about it tho.
I have noticed brexiteers shutting up about it tho.
Well we have left.
All you can do is point out the utter stupidities of brexit.
All you can do is point out stupidity, yes.
Fact-based rational arguments is just more yada yada yada from snobbish liberals and they’re not interested.
For some yes. But there are many who were swayed by BoJo&co's arguments, they can also be swayed by yours, if you are tactful and considerate, and if you take the time to engage. It is hard though.
What else is their MOlgrips? go on - enlighten me?
Every Brexiteer I know and I know a few have completely closed minds and will not listen to anything. facts are dismissed as remoaner nonsense then they stick their fingers in their ears and go lalalalalalala
But they absolutely categorically will not ever listen if you upset them.
This is so true. It’s a shame more people don’t realise.
Who are these people waiting to have what is obviously unfolding in front of their eyes carefully explained to them in a mild manner? The food standards campaigns seem to be full of people who still think Brexit is a good idea, just not the acquiescing to the USA as regards farming part. Those complaining about lorry parks and red tape include people who still think Brexit is a good idea, just not this disruptive faff about moving goods across borders. Brexit will make so much worse in the UK… but you can be sure Brexit isn’t to blame… you won’t persuade people otherwise with evidence and rational explainers… and definitely not but repeating any of the “Project Fear” warnings as they come to be true.
I’m with molgripd on this. Lowering ourselves to bigoted stereotypical views of Brexieers kind of removes any moral high ground to try and persuade them they were mistaken.
I've mentioned it before on this thread but the two most comitted Brexiteers I know are both highly intelligent, educated blokes. They both identify themselves as socialists, and their views on most things would be indistinguishable from Jeremy Corbyns. And they're the same about Europe. Get them onto the subject of the EU and you'd think you were talking to Farage. They're fully paid up Tony Benn style Brexiteers who despise Boris and co, but bizarrely despise the EU more.
So lumping everyone in as thicko's who believe everything they read in the Sun really doesn't help.
The world of the Lexiteer is a truly strange place. Despite everything, they are still strong advocates of Brexit. Utter madness
I do not buy this argument at all. All you can do is point out the utter stupidities of brexit. Its not a rational debate – they are wedded to their positions either by not wanting to admit they have been fooled or because they only see it thru the less of xenophobia. Its pointless trying to change someones mind when it not a rational decision
Sorry TJ, I don't agree that it's pointless. Central to the campaign was how easy it is to present Brexit as a rainbow of opportunities, appealing to different people on different angles. So by definition, it's not all focussed on one aspect. And if people have voted on emotions rather than a factual assessment, then is it impossible to engage on that level?
Personally, I'm in favour of a federal Europe. For me, that's the end game in my lifetime and the outcome I believe will allow my daughter and her generation to thrive. Could be an impossible dream and obviously Brexit is somewhat of a setback 😉 But if we learn anything from this year, it's that there are no certainties in life.
Fact-based rational arguments is just more yada yada yada from snobbish liberals and they’re not interested. In fact winding up snobbish liberals and their ‘facts’ seems to be a big part of the fun.
People forget that for some brexiters its about revenge.
Well we have left.
We haven't, and it won't be the last it will be heard of either, for every failure of diplomatic and economic policy this country tries to achieve on the international stage now and in the future, it will always point back to 24th June 2016.
What else is their MOlgrips? go on – enlighten me?
I've been trying to explain it, read back. I haven't got time to give you a detailed lecture on how to get people to agree with you. Perhaps you don't have success because of the way you approach the task? You've often said you can't understand how other people think. This is always going to be a problem if you want to persuade people.
Another Brexit dividend - no fish.
If I've learned anything in 35 years in business, it's that having a rational, fact-based argument that you present carefully and clearly is of absolutely no use at all in changing people's minds. I've almost never seen it work. Unfortunately, I've also never been able to identify what it is that does actually achieve the change - it's just that sometimes it happens. Which is all a bit dispiriting, really.
Fish.
Brexit is about deregulation and the subsequent wealth transfer of both poor peoples labour and borrowed/printed money into the hands of a small number of people.
This is not a left wing view its simple economic facts. The best example is the current dispute with the EU over state aid. Dominic wants unlimited state aid to create a UK Apple/Microsoft but in reality the "investment" will get funnelled into private pockets of new business (just look at the PPE contracts)
I am also wise enough to understand that this die has been cast. Those of us in the middle (class) will have to survive as best we can.
The working poor with few skills or education are really going to struggle, thrre will be few unskilled jobs and even less post covid. The gov can talk all it likes about retraining but a lot oc the skills shortages (Nurses, engineers, cyber etc,) require young bright folks not a 50 year old ex kitchen porter ( no offence to kitchen porters.
Let me be clear, I am f**g furious about Brexit still.
But, having now read extensively about politics, populism, economics and the future of work, I have sadly found myself in agreement with Molgrips. Berating the dumb c* who voted us into this mess won't help and simply entrenches their position. They wanted to give us a bloody nose and berating them for doing it reinforces that they are "right".
I don't know the answer other than a radical remake of politics, and progress away from the winner takes all economy that is - when combined with Covid - going to reduce all of us (yes, that includes us Audi driving IT consultants) to effective paupers.
If you read just one book on it all, make it this one: Tyranny of Merit
Is there an answer? The utopians have the right idea with UBI, but I just don't see how the rent-seekers of the world will cough-up to make that happen.
Putting aside the long term financial gains for the very few from Brexshit, there will also be the disaster capitalists banking on making a fortune playing the markets on the eve of Brexit.How about suspending market trading for a brief time or certainly banning some of the the more dubious practices. Discuss.
I agree with UBI it would solve many problems, and replace a complex benefits system and allow many (including me) to do "unpaid" work and create new business and drive the overall economy.
But and its a massive but as brexitrefugee points out the "landlords" will fight to the death as UBI added to minimum wage takes a lot of folk from renting to owning and add in the decline of office rents post covid.
Note i use the term Landlord in the broader sense
Rentier it is, this is not new in the UK its been the case since William the Conqueror turned up.
The UK investment structure is all about property and land. It is not about investing in people or ideas.
How about suspending market trading for a brief time or certainly banning some of the the more dubious practices. Discuss.
Not going to happen. For obvious reasons. Discussion over.
Another Brexit dividend – no fish.
No problem, the Brexies' sovrunty is so tangible we will be able to cover it in batter and have it with chips.
Either that or a blue passport deep-fried.
Another Brexit dividend – no fish.
No flights out of here either.
No flights out of here either.
I might ask if I can reuse one of the confiscated migrant dinghies that the gammons get all hot and bothered about and make a dash for the promised land of France with the family in tow....
Another Brexit dividend – no fish.
I wouldn't worry about that. After Brexit whilst "we'll" control our fishing grounds, we won't have a market to sell into so the economics will take care of that as fishermen and women go bust...
If I’ve learned anything in 35 years in business, it’s that having a rational, fact-based argument that you present carefully and clearly is of absolutely no use at all in changing people’s minds. I’ve almost never seen it work. Unfortunately, I’ve also never been able to identify what it is that does actually achieve the change – it’s just that sometimes it happens. Which is all a bit dispiriting, really.
My pennyworth from the same length of time working (at a senior including global C-Level) is that the only way stuff happens in companies is senior folk in the business deciding it's the "answer".
The "Letter from Hitler/CEO/FD" etc is key. And the only way the path changes, is if the person changes.
Face it, Brexit is currently the way that the strategy is occurring. As I said previously, "Brexit isn't the destination, it's the vehicle".
If you're not loaded, you're stuffed.
Well, today is Johnson’s deadline day… was he bluffing?
Of course he was. He is trying to play brinksmanship - only he is against experts!
I wouldn't like to say - previous form would suggest a climbdown, but I think the likelyhood of that hangs on whether he can spin it as a victory to the brexit faithfull.
I'm not sure how he can spin that, so maybe he will go for a no deal to save face, also likely.
Remember, it's not whats best for the country, it's what's best for Boris.
They've already taken bulldozers to big swathes of the 'Garden of England'. I don't think it is a bluff (tragically).
Remember, it’s not whats best for the country, it’s what’s best for Boris.
And that will be his political epitaph, cold comfort that it is to us ordinary folk. He won't care much. He will have a massive stack of cash to console himself with.
They’ve already taken bulldozers to big swathes of the ‘Garden of England’.
That's pretty much all they've done though.
Five Live this morning were interviewing various business owners about Brexit. One was a cheese producer who exported to the EU. She said that they've been constantly asking DEFRA about their food labelling and how the legal requirements will change once the UK becomes a 'third country'. They know the labelling will need to change to carry on exporting to the EU. They simply cannot get an answer. Nobody knows. And this seems typical across the board.
So this means one of two things
a) It's all a bluff. Nobody is taking it seriously as they know that at the eleventh hour Boris will fold, sign a trade deal then try and spin it as a victory
b) We're sleepwalking into no deal with a government that are blind, or in denial or just uncaring as to the reality of no deal and the economic carnage it would create
Unfortunately, I know which one of those presently looks more likely
All the preparations done so far are for the hard brexit they say is the maximum they will accept. NO deal causes even more issues such as ( as Shapps confirmned) flights grounded and so on.
The game now is to try to pin the blame on the EU - its working but only to some extent as the EU folk can see "trap" in huge lettering over this so no matter the deliberate provocation the EU will not walk away leaving Johnson and co to walk away and thus publicly accepot the blame or keep on negotiating but with no movement.
I just ordered a years' worth) of firewood from our usual supplier, it's kiln dried (don't ask, just accept) and comes from Latvia.
She mentioned that we were a bit early this year, I agreed and said we'd at least 3 months supply but I was concerned about any Brexit issues.
She admitted that at the moment they've no idea of what the impacts on them are going to be.
Irrelevant of whether they should know, what a sad state of affairs.
I just ordered a years’ worth) of firewood from our usual supplier, it’s kiln dried (don’t ask, just accept) and comes from Latvia.
You could always burn baby polar bears if you can't get anymore.
You could always burn baby polar bears if you can’t get anymore.
One of the advantages of Brexit is that we get to set our own tariffs on the import of baby polar bears for fuel.
We'll of course demand that tariffs on jam are dropped in exchange.
#letsgoWTO
Poor old Boris is disappointed by trade talks. It must have come as such a shock to him.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54543956
The very embodiment of going through the motions.
He added that as well as fishing rights, "key issues" for a deal included post-Brexit rules on competition and how a deal would be enforced.
I imagine Johnsons action this year have bumped "how a deal would be enforced" to the top of list of concerns for everyone looking to sign a deal with the UK within the next five years, not just the EU negotiators.
However badly the WU talks go, does anyone think the talks with anyother major power will go any better. The UK is a medium sized country and if it wants a deal with major powers it will have to accept what they want to a large extent.
Did anyone ever read about the truck route in Africa (I think) where drivers used to pay prostitutes in sugar stolen from the back of the truck? When the transport company cracked down on the practice it caused the local economy to collapse. The prostitutes were selling the sugar on to bakers, who would bake goods to sell to vendors, who would sell at local stalls. Removing the sugar broke this value chain.
#BrexitOpportunities
https://twitter.com/KentishExpress/status/1316393331522379777
"councillors warn this is not a chance for remainers to have a go" So pointing out actions have consequences isn't allowed.
I agree with the councillors, it's in fact time for a good old public lynching, of them
The councillor involved is a brexit supporter so hardly a considered opinion from a balanced individual.
Pesky remainers. They spoil everything.
Hopefully the people who voted for the councillor will simply hold him to account.
Clearly whoever owns those fields will have made a few bob... Brexit dividend at work 😆
Here we go
https://twitter.com/DavidGHFrost/status/1316785715943014400?s=20
some of the comments are unbelievable - "deliver a no deal you will be a national hero"!!!
Boris Johnson is facing the momentous decision of whether to walk out on Brexit trade talks, after the EU offered to extend them beyond the prime minister’s deadline to the end of October.
Chief negotiator Michel Barnier told reporters in Brussels that he had proposed a two-week extension to negotiations, offering to work through the weekend if necessary to get an agreement.
“I can confirm that we’re available, we shall remain available until the last possible day,” he said, after a meeting of EU leaders in the Belgian capital to discuss the issue.
So what is our fat scrotum of a PM going to do? throw his own peple under the brexit bus?
He will continue to pretend to negotiate but refuse to make any of the compromises that the EU deem essential. same as he has done for months.
Ha ha. You also just know that lorry park will be badly designed by some overpaid consultant tw*t and will have some ridiculous bottleneck so the lorries that actually get clearance to enter the new nation state of Kent won't be able to get out!
Brexit. What an utter fail from start to finish.
Ha ha. You also just know that lorry park will be badly designed by some overpaid consultant tw*t and will have some ridiculous bottleneck so the lorries that actually get clearance to enter the new nation state of Kent won’t be able to get out!
It'll be over budget, and late, as always.
Anyone know when the grown ups are arriving?
What they’ve forgot to factor in when building that lorry park is the access road which passes under a low height railway bridge*
* Not actually true but it wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest
dannyh
Full MemberHa ha. You also just know that lorry park will be badly designed by some overpaid consultant tw*t and will have some ridiculous bottleneck so the lorries that actually get clearance to enter the new nation state of Kent won’t be able to get out!
The day of the Grand Opening is the first time a fully laden full size artic goes in it. It sinks without a trace. The second one, proceeding more cautiously, strikes a gravitational anomaly and is spaghettified. (it later emerges that they knew about the black hole in advance, but the report had been suppressed until 2032, and apparently that's perfectly normal- and besides, it's the council's fault) The third, forced in at gunpoint by Mark Francois who got out of court early, is eaten by triffids, who we are immediately told were allowed in by France and harboured by Jeremy Corbyn in his allotment. The BBC declares it a partial success, then forced to apologise for being so negative.
Grant Shapps is found 2 weeks later, having followed his satnav to the wrong Kent and ended up in Sierra Leone.
I remember seeing an interview with the guy that first coined the term "Brexit" in some fairly obscure document he'd penned back on 2012 I think.
He said that Brexit was fundamentally a battle within the UK for it to either remain a Welfare State or become a free-market economy.
I think he is and was, spot on. We are heading towards an economic Darwinism where wealth is the only security blanket there will be.
For everyone else, they are just the expendable grease on the cogs that keep the meat grinder churning away.
This made me laugh
No 10 startled by EU insistence that UK accept Brexit trade terms
ie that the EU have now reached the minimum acceptable terms for a deal and will not and indeed in many ways legally cannot move any more.
We have nothing to offer them, its stupid to keep on insisting that the EU do something that they simply cannot. Go on Johnson - walk away from the talks. We dare you!