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but they didn’t even try.
If you're handing out blame, neither did Corbyn. The failure of last autumn to unite the various factions was as much Labour's failure as the other opposition parties. All the accusations of "self interest" and "short term-ism" can be heaped at their feet as well. I still remember Corbyn supporters railing against the other opposition parties for their failure to recognise and support a "Labour Brexit" knowing full well they couldn't and wouldn't. They were all playing the same game
I reckon I used the right term:
ambivalent
/amˈbɪv(ə)l(ə)nt/adjective
adjective: ambivalent
having mixed feelings or contradictory ideas about something or someone.
Leading a party where the parliamentary representatives were largely Remainers and the core voters were probably a split between Remain/Leave. So knowing He could neither really follow his own instincts, or the party line without alienating half his support, he decisively swithered and did eff-all of any import for several years.
My point was though that if the leader of the biggest opposition party remains motionless on a frankly huge issue, then the actions of those smaller Opposition parties is largely irrelevant. You could argue given his belief in Brexit he should have stepped down in 2018ish? But then He'd not long ago had a relative electoral "success" galvanising all that Momentum support into Millennial votes. He clung on to a time limited leadership position well after it was clear he was doing nothing useful for the p[arty or the nation... But you reckon Jo Swinson is more to blame?
Of course the Lib-Dems and SNP were acting in "self interest" trying to attract us remoaners to vote for them. Because being honest about it we all knew at least 18 months ago that Remaining was a lost cause...
And they were at least offering policy promises based on their own principles/beliefs. Both Leaders saw Brexit as damaging and were going to oppose it. Corbyn Promised to do what exactly on Brexit?
Abstain from votes himself and not whip his MP's?
Strong leadership stuff that eh...
It's all history... the Vote Leave government is now tasked with getting the trade deals it promised in 2016 and 2019, and that post Brexit Britain (that's us folks, we've left) is supposed to have... and it's sabotaging them at every opportunity. They were given a free pass to extend the transition period, to have more time to DO THEIR JOB (THE JOB THAT DIDN'T EVEN EXIST TILL THEY SOLD THE IDEA THAT IT SHOULD EXIST) and get us those trade deals, and put systems in place to support companies and people working within them... but what are they doing??? Bung us a bob for big ben bongs and come shake my hand down the covid word... I'm going off on holiday for a few more weeks... f business, f the people of NI, f the union with Scotland, f the experts, f the voters, f the BBC, f C4, f the civil service, f the courts, f trade, f industry, f the NHS, f the epidemic preparedness strategy, f local councils, f the farmers, f the care workers, f the teachers, f the haulage industry, f the small boat fishermen, f the people.
Voted remain. Would do again tomorrow without thinking about it and would vote to rejoin. You’re not the first to make that mistake though.
Now why might that be?
But we've played this game before and it didn't get anyone anywhere before.
There seems to be a developing consensus from what I've been reading today that Boris is absolutely getting ready to blink and blink hard.
However, it's going to be portrayed as exactly the opposite. A triumph from the edge of the abyss. Make a deal look impossible then Battling Boris Beats the Bosch at the last second, thus becoming a cunning negotiator in his adoring fans eyes.
The really interesting part is obviously going to be who gets thrown under the bus and how on earth that gets portrayed as a triumph.
I suspect that the fishing industry is going to get some rather unpleasant news about what taking back control really means. I think they will also soon realise that to most Leave voters, being the poster boy industry of choice for a while won't count for much in the end. Put simply, when it really comes down to it, the average Leave voter doesn't actually care about the fishing industry when it really comes down to it and the government never did anyway.
What other concessions can be masked as wins though? Cold hard truths are going to be coming soon, whatever spin is put on them.
Many commentators do believe that this is all just bullshit and bluster. I hope so. Although even threatening to break international law makes future negotiation much more difficult. On anything. That's the problem with acting like a dick. People remember.
Cold hard truths are going to be coming soon
Johnson fears truth because he is a liar, a coward and exists hour to hour by lying and evading. A fraud.
**** him and the damage he has done and continues to do to the standing of the UK on the international stage.
Many commentators do believe that this is all just bullshit and bluster. I hope so.
Of course it is, bullshit & bluster is his speciality
However, it’s going to be portrayed as exactly the opposite. A triumph from the edge of the abyss.
Exactly. That was exactly how he portrayed it the last time he bottled it, threw the DUP under the bus and caved in over the Northern Ireland issue.
He accepted a ‘deal’ that was far worse than the one he slated that Theresa May had negotiated and only a week earlier he himself described as ‘nothing any British PM could ever agree too’. That’s when it suited him. Now it no longer does. It was a ‘triumph’ then, it’s now terrible.
He is greatly helped in being able to do this by the fact that all the ERG and his Brexit supporting mates are all as thick as mince. Stick a Union Jack in a dog turd and they’d applaud it. A bunch of simpletons with the attention span of a goldfish. They seem to have already forgotten who it was who ‘negotiated the deal’ they now say is an insult to British Sovereignty. That’s right, dickheads, the fly-tipped sofa presently occupying number 10
The one hope we’ve got left is Boris Johnson’s cowardice. And it’s been pretty dependable so far. This nonsense just looks like more posturing for the flag-waving ****-wits, before he caves in at the 11tg hour again then sells it to these clowns as a ‘victory for Britain’
I find the Daily Mash more reliable than most other media outlets...
That daily mash is as good as any analysis as anyone else will come up with
All it needed was for remainers
You can **** right off with that narrative. Because remainers have been told to...
Move on, get over it.
... for four years. You cannot endeavour to silence people whilst simultaneously blaming them for being silent, that's a nonsense. And frankly bloody offensive.
The blame for all of this lies 100% in one camp. And we warned them, vociferously, and were shouted down with "project fear." Shoving this blame back onto us now at the 11th hour is the sort of thing that leads to civil unrest.
You’re not the first to make that mistake though.
As you seem to hold yourself up as the voice of pragmatism here, maybe you might consider some introspection as to why that might be the case?
All it needed was for remainers
Ooh I missed that one.
Are we having another crack at that narrative?
It comes back every so often - with enough goading I reckon daz could be made to compare the EU to a dictatorship again.
<yawns>
‘International trading terms’ - that’s how the BBC is describing No Deal now… did they think of that one themselves?
Satire is dead
you want some comedy here's our PM claiming the deal he negotiated, signed, won an election off the back of & has spaffed £bns preparing for...... makes no sense
https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1303073415222513664?s=19
‘International trading terms’
Turns out its also Boris's favourite sexual euphemism, but apparently Carrie will agree to "International trading terms" on his birthday... Prophetic eh?
Suits you Sir!
Edit:
: “Brexit deal never made sense, PM to tell EU”
Anyone else wonder if he's just been reading the German translation by accident?
The current BBC bias for Boris and the Tories is painfully obvious and Labour MPs rarely get an interview.
I think they need to be, if they want the organisation to survive this government’s full term.
Ooh I missed that one.
I've calmed down a bit over the last year or so and it's an argument that I foresaw coming four years ago. But if a leaver had told me, oh, say two years ago maybe, in a pub after several pints that brexit was all my fault for not getting behind it, it would have taken serious self-control not to just lamp them one.
‘International trading terms’ – that’s how the BBC is describing No Deal now… did they think of that one themselves?
WTO?
you want some comedy here’s our PM claiming the deal he negotiated, signed, won an election off the back of & has spaffed £bns preparing for…… makes no sense
We went through the looking glass 4 years ago. Nothing surprises me any more with these ****s
Brexiteer dimwit Andrew Bridgend was on channel 4 news earlier assuring us that the EU still needs us more than we need them and they’ll come crawling for a deal at the 11th hour and give ‘us’ everything ‘we’ want
Beam me up....
https://twitter.com/jacknannini/status/1303039878243004418?s=21
everything ‘we’ want
Have we worked out what that is now, then?
I think it’s something to do with cakes
maybe this is why parliment kept voting it down, until the people spoke.
anyone watched 'Children of Men' lately?
I'm a History and Modern Studies teacher..I have always looked at times of huge historical or political significance and wondered what it would have been like to live through them. "Shite" is the initial impression and that is before the winter of 2025 when they ration rat meat.
Anyway; as you were.
Sorry if it's bindun - I'm not really "in" this thread
but somebody twittered today
"Rules? Britannia? - Britannia waives the rules..."
Which I enjoyed, bigly
Loving the fact that all those MPs now have to defend this u-turn
https://twitter.com/DarranMarshall/status/1303080259861053442?s=19
who gets thrown under the bus
Everyone.
Some will have unfortunate encounters with the tyres, others will somehow find themselves wandering dazed in the street with only some gravel in their hair, but you're going under.
Unless Dom the Bus Conductor let you on the bus beforehand.
As you seem to hold yourself up as the voice of pragmatism here
Not really pragmatic, I still look at it all with a sense of doom like everyone else here, but I do get quite annoyed when I think that it could have easily been stopped if remainer MPs had made it a priority over everything else. That's just a fact.
Anyway, I'm trying hard to follow Starmer's example and stay well clear of the subject. There's not much left to argue about. It's in the hands of Cummings now and nothing anyone else says or does will make any difference. We've just got to wait for it to play out and try to pick up the pieces after.
And try and place the blame on anybody else but the people really responsible apparently.
And try and place the blame on anybody else but the people really responsible apparently.
Johnson and Cummings are going to pin the blame on the EU and covid.
I imagine Cummings especially sees a second covid-19 wave as a thing that has some useful attributes. Whilst he's convincing himself he is a brilliantly innovative thinker rather than what he is - a mendacious sociopath who gets a stiffee causing people stress and disquiet.
And try and place the blame on anybody else but the people really responsible apparently.
Before December nothing about brexit was cast in stone. You can console yourself with fantasies about the inevitability of it and how no one could do anything up against the evil empire, but the plain fact is that the remainers in parliament failed due to their own pride and petty self-interest. It could have been stopped. To deny otherwise is just daft.
could have been stopped. To deny otherwise is just daft.
I'd love to hear how that would have happened ?
Did it involve a load of Tories putting Corbyn in number 10?
Because that was never going to happen in this reality
Meanwhile it's really funny watching the brexies flap around trying to defey Johnson's u-turn on his deal 😂
Stop it? How exactly?
Let’s be brutally frank here, we were absolutely ****ed from the moment Dave arrogantly and complacently appointed himself and George Osbourne as the faces of the remain campaign and Jezza disappeared off for a sabbatical on the allotment
Christ, that seems an awful long time ago.
And here we still are. Flailing around in the mess created by a pissing competition between two old Eton chums, with the corrupt and incompetent now trying to deliver the undeliverable they never imagined for a moment they’d ever have to deliver.
If any image sums up Brexit perfectly, it’s this:
Those two opportunist shysters comprehending the grim prize they never actually wanted to win. After that, the chain of events that led us here had a spirit-crushing inevitability to it
Yes, a G7 country brought down by an Eton circle jerk. This extract from the Eton college Wikipedia page is illuminating and annoying AF, Paul Weller had it right all those years ago:
Pop: officially known as ‘Eton Society’, a highly glamorous high-status elite society comprising the most popular, well-regarded, confident and able senior boys. It is thus truly an elite within an elite. It is a driving ambition of many capable Eton schoolboys to be elected to Pop, and many high-performers who are refused entry to this elite consider their careers at Eton a failure. Boris Johnson was a member of Pop, whilst David Cameron (unlike his elder brother Alexander) failed to be elected, a fact which possibly fed their later political rivalry. Over the years its power and privileges have grown. Pop is the oldest self-electing society at Eton. The rules were altered in 1987 and again in 2005 so that the new intake are not elected solely by the existing year and a committee of masters. Members of Pop wear white and black houndstooth-checked trousers, a starched stick-up collar and white bow-tie, and are entitled to wear flamboyant waistcoats, often of their own design. Historically, only members of Pop were entitled to furl their umbrellas or sit on the wall on the Long Walk, in front of the main building. However, this tradition has died out. They perform roles at many of the routine events of the school year, including School Plays, parents' evenings and other official events, and generally maintain order. Notable ex-members of Pop include Prince William, Duke of Cambridge (unlike his younger brother Prince Harry, who failed to be elected ); Eddie Redmayne; and Boris Johnson.
I suspect 'pop' goes to the loudest, most obnoxious *****, or perhaps the ones who have burned the most amount of money in front of the homeless in that calendar year
Because that was never going to happen in this reality
I agree, and I completely understand the political dynamics, but it doesn't change the fact that it was possible. There were more remain MPs than brexiters in parliament. Had they put all other issues aside brexit could have been stopped in its tracks with a simple vote in parliament. They had other priorities though. In the end stopping brexit wasn't as important as their own political careers and loyalties. The likes of Swinson, Gauke, Hammond, Grieve etc though keeping labour out of power was more important than keeping the UK in the EU. That's why we are where we are now.
Had they put all other issues aside brexit could have been stopped in its tracks with a simple vote in parliament.
Fantasy. Many of those MPs opposing (and failing to stop) No Deal Brexit were not in favour of stopping Brexit, including many Labour MPs.
Any chance of using this thread for what's happening right now, this year, and beyond? What the MPs of 2019 did is old news. It's not that it's not important, it's just gone, over, and your retelling of history, and all our replies about that, are clogging up the thread, just as the focus on the lying bait and switch artists running the government should be under the full glare of the spotlight.
Following on from the threat at the weekend to ignore the UK's legal obligations under the withdrawal agreement.
If it is now an acceptable tactic to ignore international treaty obligations for political expediency, (or even to threaten to do so) surely there is a risk of ending up on the receiving end of economic sanctions. So, could we end up with a no deal and punitive sanctions?
I can't see any deal with the US if the peace process is wrecked. Any entanglement with a UK government responsible for that would simply be too toxic for any US politician looking over his shoulder at the Irish - American diaspora.
If it is now an acceptable tactic to ignore international treaty obligations for political expediency, (or even to threaten to do so) surely there is a risk of ending up on the receiving end of economic sanctions. So, could we end up with a no deal and punitive sanctions?
Dishonesty means people don't trust you in future. It is a morality lesson we try to teach kids from about 18 months of age.
You can dress thus stuff up as much as you like as 'statecraft' or 'robust politicking', but what it really is is cheating and lying.
It does immeasurable damage to the UK, but then, what is a bit more damage when you've already done so much?
shooterman, you wrote...
If it is now an acceptable tactic to ignore international treaty obligations for political expediency, (or even to threaten to do so) surely there is a risk of ending up on the receiving end of economic sanctions. So, could we end up with a no deal and punitive sanctions?
Did you see this article in yesterday's Guardian?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/07/eu-has-powers-to-punish-uk-if-it-breaches-brexit-treaty-experts-warn
Don't this government want some form of punishment action from the EU? Isn't that exactly what will sure up their support, and support for their domestic agenda, with the public they have proven they are masters at winning over when it matters (to them)?
Dishonesty means people don’t trust you in future. It is a morality lesson we try to teach kids from about 18 months of age.
The flaw here is Johnson has never had to learn this lesson. He has spent his life lying away and has always failed upwards.
Don’t this government want some form of punishment action from the EU? Isn’t that exactly what will (sic) sure up their support, and support for their domestic agenda
Ursa Pinus Poopus? The whole fiasco has shown that the public appetite for different versions of the same lie ie ‘if it wasn’t for bloody foreigners’...
... is a dead-cert vote-winner AND versatile smokescreen. Almost anything is possible now they’ve sacked all the internal dissent. Extra points for posh latin phrases delivered in dismissive blustery Churchillian baritone.
I see bernard jenkin, on behalf of the ERG, has just said that in the event of no deal johnson should tear up the withdrawal agreement - and that would earn resect from other countries.
The lunatics have truly taken over the asylum.
@frankconway - no I hadn't seen that. A good read though - thanks.
I didn't post above to be prejorative or sneer at Brexiteers. I am genuinely trying to get my head around what is increasingly looking like some sort of Gotterdamerung for the UK.
I know there has been a lot of theorising about disaster capitalism, tax havens and dirty Russian money being hidden in a deregulated UK but I'm struggling to see the upside for anyone in all of this? There appears to be a wilful determination to make things as awful as possible.
There is, it appears to me, a real risk of no deal, penalties from the EU, third party countries following suit to preserve their relationships with the EU and no trade deal with the US. For what purpose?
The upsides are the payoffs Tories are getting or going to get from us healthcare and agribusiness plus the money they make on betting against the pound
Ok, so let's say this is all a cynical project by a narrow group to enrich themselves, what do you think it would take to shatter the cult of Brexit?
what do you think it would take to shatter the cult of Brexit?
It doesn't matter. We've left. And we can't choose to replace the people currently wrecking the UK off the back of it for their own political and financial aims ‘till they’re done. It won't shatter 'till it is history, and people are telling us to "get over" the wasted years and billions.
There is a reason why some of us ŵanted a “measure twice, cut once” vote on this… it’s like going over the edge of a waterfall… now we’ve gone over the edge it is absolutely irrelevant that more and more people will see through the lies, we’re going down no matter what.
I see bernard jenkin, on behalf of the ERG, has just said that in the event of no deal johnson should tear up the withdrawal agreement – and that would earn resect from other countries.
The lunatics have truly taken over the asylum.
And in the process he has elevated 'being a prick' into a rare art form.
I'm not so pessimistic Kelvin. Perhaps I am being naive but there has to be a point at which people decide the price being paid for this form of Brexit is too high.
And then... what can they do about it?
Vote. Protest. Give the Tories a whiff of the political wilderness for 10 years.
Protest.
Laws are being changed bit by bit ready to prevent that. Have you noticed? Most haven't. We said it would happen, but hey... we're the undemocratic ones for warning about it.
Give the Tories a whiff of the political wilderness for 10 years.
That "may" come (I don't think it will, goalposts will be moved, and they'll move the narrative onto something else by the next election... I dread what as it happens), but in the meantime, these people can not be stopped 'till the damage is complete and mostly irreversible, no matter what the people think. F the people!
Laws are being changed bit by bit ready to prevent that. Have you noticed?
Aggravated trespass has popped up a few times already. Also, social distancing is a convenient way to stop many attending and criticising those that do.
I’m not so pessimistic Kelvin. Perhaps I am being naive but there has to be a point at which people decide the price being paid for this form of Brexit is too high.
Blame the EU/remoaners/immigrants. The price is high for freedom ONLY because of lefties and their beloved foreigners previously trapping us in that commie-infested unelected Eurocrat-hellhole Over There. What price freedom? Stiff upper lip, Dunkirk. Etc.
Repeat ad infinitum. That line ‘worked‘ now for decades to get us exactly where we are at, so what makes you think that even among the majority of those who voted ‘leave’ there are an appreciable number who think a no deal exit is somehow a ‘loss’ to our UK Sovereignty And Freedom? How can it be a ‘loss’ now that Britain England is free to Build Back Better?
Especially now it’s plain as day AS WE KNEW ALL ALONG that the EU were snakes in the grass. Better off out, the ‘loss’ is the fault of the EU/remoaners/immigrants. Dunkirk Spirit. It’s going to be hard. If you don’t like it then lump or leave. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. &c. </satire>
kelvin
Full MemberI think they need to be, if they want the organisation to survive this government’s full term.
Basically, they tried that and learned that a good horse gets ridden- straight after the election, when the beeb thought "phew, we did what they wanted, now we're safe" the tories simply cracked the whip harder.
They haven’t even started whipping the BBC yet… it’ll be flogged into complete submission by the next election.
Anyway… a choice quote from one of those eroding our international standing day by day…
https://twitter.com/adamjschwarz/status/1303307680329740288?s=21
Lovely. International isolation isn't enough. Going to full distance to pariah status it appears.
Meanwhile all the UKs potential trading partners, make a little note on their UK trade talks file
It says
"NOT TO BE TRUSTED"
Looking forward to having North Korean brie for lunch. I'm assuming they'll still want to trade with us..
TBF they've already told us it's ok to break UK law, see Barnard Castle/the illegal proroguing of parliament.
Did you see this article in yesterday’s Guardian?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/07/eu-has-powers-to-punish-uk-if-it-breaches-brexit-treaty-experts-warn
As @kelvin says, that will play straight into the hands of Leave as they turn it round to say "see, the EU were so upset at us leaving that they're punishing us, we're better off without them".
Now Plebs, sing a bit of Rule Britannia so we can asset strip some NHS while you're not looking.
Thing is EU couldn't care less what Brexiteers blame them for. We're gone and they will be protecting the interests of the remaining members. It's all just a "I'm brexitier than you" game now.
Passengers shouting at each other about how awful the iceberg is while the ship sinks and no one does anything about it.
"Yes, this does break international law in a very specific and limited way".
I must remember that if I ever have the misfortune to meet Brandon Lewis. After I've punched him in the mouth, I'll use that line.
Maybe Milosevic, Mladic and Karajdic tried that line too. Great company to be in if they did.
Meanwhile all the UKs potential trading partners, make a little note on their UK trade talks file
It says
“NOT TO BE TRUSTED”
That's the thing about lying and cheating. It feels clever and 'edgy' at first, but the chickens come home to roost in fairly short order.
That’s the thing about lying and cheating. It feels clever and ‘edgy’ at first, but the chickens come home to roost in fairly short order.
Really? The definition of ‘roosting chickens’ here presumably rests on whatever one considers to be ‘most fowl’?
there has to be a point at which people decide the price being paid for this form of Brexit is too high
I'm surprised this went unnoticed. Standards are slipping.
What form of brexit would you consider is worth paying for and at what cost?
^^^ at which the grown-ups point out the facts; it's an international treaty and, as such, there are penalties resulting from breaching it - the EU are not attempting to 'punish'.
In fact, it would be better if the grown-ups got this point out into the media now.
Who are these mythical grown ups?
@Cougar, really anything other than the cut your nose off to spite your face format we seem to be going for at present.
A compromise. UK makes compromise to the Eu to remain part of the customs union would be a start.
To be honest I think the best bet would be effective full membership of the EU with zero say. I trust the EU politicians far more than our current rabble.
When we had a say, we sent them ****s like Farage to waste their time.
A compromise. UK makes compromise to the Eu to remain part of the customs union would be a start.
What does that gain us? As close as possible to what we had before we left, only no longer having a seat at the table to be involved in the decision making? We were already "sick of being told what to do by Brussels" when fully one tenth of "Brussels" was UK MEPs. How well do you reckon actually being told what to by Brussels would go down?
That's been the problem with your "compromise" from day one and it's partly how we've arrived at this point today. Remainers don't want it because they recognise that it serves no purpose (other than damage limitation now we've withdrawn I suppose), it's mostly slightly worse that what we already have had only surrendering all control for no good reason; and leavers don't want either because it's not brexity enough for them, they see it as "brexit in name only."
Your compromise was only a compromise in that it united both sides in providing a solution neither of them wanted. It is, now, the least worst option but that ship has probably sailed. C'est la vie.
Who are these mythical grown ups?
ALL of the opposition parties, some tories, international law experts for starters; anyone capable of rational, independent, critical thinking.
This could all be solved by making the right to vote dependent on passing a basic IQ test.
On this basis we could probably lower the age that you become eligible to vote as many 12-13 year olds have enough about them to know that Brexit, Johnson, Farage, Cummings et al are utterly toxic.
Shame more 'adults' cannot see it.
Shame more ‘adults’ cannot see it.
They see what the rags like The Sun, The Daily Mail and The Daily Express tell them to. Dumbed down nationalistic tub-thumping politics mixed in with celebrity gossip and other distractions like Diana, house prices and things that either give you cancer or cure it.
Now Plebs, sing a bit of Rule Britannia
Rules, Britannia!
Britannia waives the rules!
(nicked from somewhere else, which I see as a fine British Empire tradition, anyhow)
https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/08/britain-negotiate-brexit-deal-frosty
Do you reckon anyone in Government reads The Guardian?
Do you reckon anyone in Government reads The Guardian?
I imagine Cummings does with a view to how to smear troublesome graun journalists who tell the truth. Aaron Banks's campaign against Carole Cadwalladr is particularly insidious and nasty.
My local Tory MP has just been promoted to Maritime Minister - well done you toady prick!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-53538224
Even by the standards of this shower, when all previous standards of what is acceptable have been shredded, it’s quite something to see a government minister stand at the despatch box and say that, yes, they do indeed plan to renage on a legally binding treaty signed less than a year ago and, yes, that is indeed against international law. 😳
Anyone else think that when the actual proposals are published tomorrow, it will be nothing of the sort? And it’ll all have just been more bluff, bluster and bullshit from Johnson to stop the ERG headbangers from spoiling themselves again, and drum up some ‘Boris Battling for Britain’ headlines in the Daily Mail?