I dislike the insular parochial and xenophobic view that comes from England Scotland.

Just get over yourself TJ. Frankly neither I, nor most others give a fig what nationality you perceive yourself to be, or even feel that you have a right to be.

Whilst I accept that objective thinking is far from your stong point (your starting point for Scotland’s independence being a rapidly dwindling non-renewable and highly polluting energy source for starters), in a world run by economies the size of the USA and China, the best policy for long term survival would surely be a Federal Europe. By all means, hold your myopic views of right to self determination, but as long as all the little countries squabble, it just leaves the very big ones more chance to quietly gobble up the world’s resources whilst noone’s watching.

In the mean time, have a public chuckle about England’s reliance on the banking sector, but also look at what happened to the two main Scottish banking groups – I’m sure Westminster would be only too happy to let Holyrood pick up the tab for HBOS and RBS. Celtic tiger indeed eh? More like the celtic dodo….

EDIT: Doh! STW’s hamsters must have had too much of the one major export Scotland truly is great at: Whisky!

Elfin; that chart is well known,it counts spending on the military towards the per capita per person,take that away,or a chunk of it as military spending would be cut a great deal and Scotland would contribute more than it receives.Although only in the short term,as that table counts oil revenues.

Elfin; that chart is well known,it counts spending on the military towards the per capita per person,take that away,or a chunk of it as military spending would be cut a great deal and Scotland would contribute more than it receives.

Why take it away? Does the military only serve England, and not the UK as a whole?

Scots are too busy fighting themselves over football and religion (and all the blurring of the two) at the moment to need an army to fight anyone else…

TJ sez this:

Elf. Lots of assumptions there.

Then, right, he sez this:

I believe Scotland would be better off if independent – more internationalist, greener, tory free zone.

Without any actual factual conclusive proof or evidence to back this up. IE, belief based on assumptions, no? 😕

Scotland puts more into the exchequer than it receives. This is a fact.

I’m not denying this, as I have only the evidence provided by HM Treasury as in that diagram above. Do you have actual evidence to support your claims?

Scotland gets less per person that the south east.

One of the main reasons for this is the disproportionately high housing costs in the SE, coupled with the fact that many people in London live well below the National Average Household Income level, and more are reliant on State Benefits to make up the shortfall. This isn’t ‘Westminster favouring London’, or any other such crap. I’m sure you can work that out though…

Fact is that on average, London, the South East and East of England are in effect helping to subsidise the rest of the UK. I don’t see a problem with this at all; surely co-operation between people of the same Nation is a good thing, no? So, your lovely tax revenues goes to help people in Northern ireland as well as London. Are you also opposed to that? Do you not think those people in NI who need state help should get it?

the disproportionately high housing costs in the SE, coupled with the fact that many people in London live well below the National Average Household Income level, and more are reliant on State Benefits to make up the shortfall.

That’s what you call the “greatest city in the world” – overpriced housing and benefit scroungers?

Zokes – your post shows a series of good examples of folk not listening to the debate.

I have repeatedly said on this forum I consider myself British. Of English descent and Scotland is my home.

I quite agree with you about a federal Europe. Thats one of the major points here. “Independence in Europe” The ability to have a say for Scotland in the supranational institutions. Instead of the bowing to the eurosceptics all the time as mentioned on this very thread

Elfin; that chart is well known,it counts spending on the military towards the per capita per person,take that away,or a chunk of it as military spending would be cut a great deal and Scotland would contribute more than it receives.

Its true Fred. Most families in the North West have our own Challenger tank. Living in Newcastle is best though. Every 3 houses share their own Typhoon fighter jet. They aren’t the ground attack derivative though. That would allow for far too much mischief-making with rival football fans on Tyneside Derby Days.

Hope that clears up the spending discrepancy for you

That’s what you call the “greatest city in the world” – overpriced housing and benefit scroungers?

🙄

You’re boring, Bob.

Binners; I’m having one of these delivered on Friday:

Ooooooooooooooooooo – can I have a go? Can I? Can I? Can I? I’ll let you loose off a few rounds from the Challenger. Its terrible on diesel but its good fun

the comparision to Norway is actually quite close. Apart from Norway got rid of its colonial masters a while ago

What a peculiar thing to say. In what way does England represent a colonial master to Scotland ? England had been ruled by the King of Scotland since James VI in 1603 – over 100 years before the Scottish Parliament decided that an act of union would benefit it ( see a pattern developing here ? ). If I were an Indian or Zulu reading your words I’d think it even stranger that a Scot would consider themselves a colonial victim when so many Scots had been involved in and benefitted from the subjugation of lands and people all around the Empire. Even those not employed in the armed forces were happy to make their living in the dockyards of the Clyde that ensured British hegemony of the sea and as a result, the globe. I’m sure that you can point to crofters evicted from their farms by English landlords ( see another theme developing ? ) but how that becomes an issue of nation in a supposedly united nation is arguable. The same evictions happened all over England. It’s class politics not national politics that are at play there.
If you do have any valid points to your argument, I suggest that you stick to them rather than resort to hyperbole.

Ok Binners, but only if you’re a very good boy.

Still waiting for the proof I asked TJ for…. 🙄

By that comment on your chart, I would suggest that we would be more likely to cut our cloth when it came to defence spending,but you knew that.I think we would be unlikely to feel the need for nukes,or the subs to carry them,or full scale invasion of foreign countries,as unlike yourselves we don’t imagine/want to be a major player on the world military stage.(The same superiority complex that makes it hard for you to accept that not everybody in the UK wants to be British)I remember this chart being picked apart four years ago when it came out,but realistic defence spending would decrease the amount received by enough to put us in credit.

Trailmonkey,that was quality!

the Scottish Parliament decided that an act of union would benefit it

Never heard of the rough wooing? Why was that needed?

A quick skim through this thread reveals the wonderful generosity of some of the English.

They say we Scots won’t be able to support ourselves, and yet they still want to continue to subsidise us. What wonderful fellows! 🙂

However even if we do make less money, we’ll have a better standard of living because we won’t be wasting our pension, education, and health funds by expensively killing people in other countries.

Given the fondness that youngsters from some part of scotland have for stabbing each other – I see a brilliant opportunity the bring out a range of scottish army knives. Just like a kitchen knife, but covered in blood.

Look, you’re not getting independence, you’re not a significant enough population, so just be quiet and accept yer lot.

Earlier I right fancied a Raspberry or Fruits of the Forest Cornetto. They only had Strawberry. I don’t even know if the former two exist.

Instead of stamping my feet and wailing ‘it’s not fair’, I bought a Strawberry one, and enjoyed it.

Be happy with what yer’ve got. Make the most of it. Be thankful you’re part of Britain, you ungrateful whinging moaners….

Elfinsafety – Ever been to Scotland?

Nope. I’ve never been to the Isle of Man either. Your point?

You seem to have a hell of a lot of opinions about a place you’ve never been to.

And?

What is your actual point?

You seem angry.

I was merely making an observation.

Oh, right.

Angry? Nah, just bored with it, and a bit bemused by TJ’s rank hypocrisy (Right-wing when it suits him).

I reckon wait for, say, 20 years or so, then see if Scotlanders still want independence. 😉

Seems that a number of Scots are pretty insular, narrow-minded selfish people who don’t give a stuff about people in other parts of the UK. I’m wondering why?

Seems that a number of people are pretty insular, narrow-minded selfish people who don’t give a stuff about people in other parts. I’m wondering why?

FTFY.

Elfinman, you’re starting to sound more and more like “Dennis Cooper” with your absurdly zealous English chauvinism

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHmNpacogSo[/video]

However even if we do make less money, we’ll have a better standard of living because we won’t be wasting our pension, education, and health funds by expensively killing people in other countries.

Yet more hyperbolic hyper bollox. The Scots regiments have always been a more than willing part of the British Army and I think you’ll find a high number recently deployed in Afghanistan expensively killing people.

Trailmonkey – the Highland clearances were mainly – but not always – carried out by Scots landlords, who were often the Clan chiefs of the very people they were dispossessing – their own relatives in fact. Ok, most of these landlords were absentee landlords living in London/Edinburgh etc but they were still Scots.
It seemed that sheep were more profitable than crofters so out the poor buggers went. As you say, the same thing happened at some points in England as well although the Black Death was one cause of the land being turned over to sheep raising as there simply weren’t enough people left alive to raise crops in the rather labour intensive methods of the C14th.

If TJ is right about Scotland being richer after Independence then they’ll be able to pay the high tariffs we’ll impose on the border and our coastal waters for any of the goods they import 😉

trailmonkey – Member
…Yet more hyperbolic hyper bollox. The Scots regiments have always been a more than willing part of the British Army and I think you’ll find a high number recently deployed in Afghanistan expensively killing people.

Of course we Scots love killing people, but a Scottish government wouldn’t waste money shipping troops to exotic foreign countries when there’s so many people to kill right next door.

(Makes as much sense as your answer)

Why does my answer make no sense ? Are you denying Scots involvement in the British Army ?

Of course we Scots love killing people

Not that funny given recent football related matters 🙁

Elfinman, you’re starting to sound more more and more like “Dennis Cooper” with your absurdly zealous English chauvinism

It gets people more fired up and livens up the debate a tad. Works every time, too. 😀

No, we’ve done the ins and outs of it all, and if it’s for purely economic reasons, it’s a pretty daft idea. Britain is better together.

If TJ is right about Scotland being richer after Independence then they’ll be able to pay the high tariffs we’ll impose on the border and our coastal waters for any of the goods they import

You can guarantee the rest of Britain woon’t give them an easy time on that score. 😉

Are you denying Scots involvement in the British Army ?

Well I remember the lone piper on Sword Beach on D Day………gave us a right morale boost I can tellya. Gawd bless’im.

Well I remember the lone piper on Sword Beach on D Day

Yeah you’re about that old, in’t yer? 😀

I saw it at the pictures – I felt as if I were there……moved me to tears, hearing that piper did.

Let’s face it …… Gerry never stood a chance, when confronted by that level of spunk.

trailmonkey – Member
Why does my answer make no sense ? Are you denying Scots involvement in the British Army ?

Not at all.

What I am saying is that a Scottish government will not be wasting money fighting post colonial wars if we have full independence.

Actually, speaking of War and that; I wonder what the Scottish Nationalist position was during WW2, when Britain’s borders were under threat of Nazi invasion?

And what of all the brave English, Welsh, Northern Irish and Scottish British soldiers who gave their lives defending Britain? How do the Scottish Nationalists view their sacrificial efforts? Need they not have bothered? 🙄

What I am saying is that a Scottish government will not be wasting money fighting post colonial wars if we have full independence.

No of course not. You’ll be a completely seperate economic entity to the rest of the global north with no incentive to get involved.

Grow up.

I wonder what the Scottish Nationalist position was during WW2,

Happily and quietly enjoying the fruits of the empire brfore wwii, happy to fight for it during.

Elfin, a bloke i know had a Grandfather who was an ardent Scots Nationalist and apparently he buggered off to Ireland for the duration as, in his words “It’s a bloody English war”.
Mind you, his other Grandfather did fight in the war – with the SS! 😯

Happily and quietly enjoying the fruits of the empire.

I don’t know why you keep banging on about that, the ordinary British people, Scottish or otherwise, never enjoyed “the fruits of the empire”, that was restricted to the privileged few.

Do you really think that people from European countries without empires, such as Scandinavia, fared any worse ?

I don’t know why you keep banging on about that, the ordinary British people, Scottish or otherwise, never enjoyed “the fruits of the empire”, that was restricted to the privileged few.

Well considering The UK is a relatively affluent nation in global terms, and people here enjoy a standard of living much higher than most people on Earth, I’d say you’re talking bollocks really. That wealth is mainly as a result of colonialisation. The wealth has trickled down throughout British society, to a situation where no-one in the UK suffers poverty on a scale seen in the Indian Subcontinent, Africa etc (IE the countries Briatain exploited). Nowhere even close. Even the poorest here are far far better off. As for Scandinavia, have you never heard of the Vikings? They’ve only really become wealthy nations in the last hundred years or less, in modern terms though.

Just seen a bit about the sectarian letter bomb thingies on’t news. Not a good advert for Scotland I’d say. 🙁