.

However I don’t feel particularly strongly about it.

Could have fooled most people on here!

Just noticed the tag ‘plastic mac’ 😀 I prefer Silicone Scot, mind…

Are you admitting you are wrong about oil then TJ. Sounds like it 😉

If I was Scottish I’d want to be independent 1000%

Money wouldn’t really come into it, especially not money derived from fossil fuels.

Elf – the oil companies paid for the exploration. No state funding.

Ok so you’re gonna pay them for their efforts then? And the ‘value’ of the oil fields? How you gonna do that?

[Paxman]Come on, answer the question![/Paxman]

I dislike the insular parochial and xenophobic view that comes from Scotland. I want a more positive and outward looking engagement with the rest of the world

FTFY.

I believe that even apart from the oil and independent Scotland would be a significantly better place to live.

Oh, so you only ‘believe’ this, do you? No actual proof or evidence to back this belief up?

I have no problem with belief. Just don’t ask me to share it with you if I don’t want to.

Clubber – thats ‘cos on subjects like this people do not listen. I put forward what the case is as a idea to debate and so folk like Elf who don’t understand might gain some understanding.

Elf – stop and think. At teh moment the tax is paid to Westminster – post independence to holyrood -= same amount of money no differnce to the oil companies

so folk like Elf who don’t understand might gain some understanding.

Patronising throbber. Just cos I respond in an obtuse and deliberately provocative manner don’t mean I don’t ‘understand’….

You talk about ‘understanding’, yet for example; any time there’s mention of London on here, you display a woeful level of ignorance and bigotry. The fact that you write such things as ‘all taxation’ goes to Westminster’ just compounds this.

I could sit here all day arguing with you. But, there’s work to be done, and it’s as hot as a bastard out there, nudging 80ºF.

Europe would happily split up into 3 times the number of independent states it is now with power devolving down to this level and up to EU level leaving the current national governments redundant

I like the application of what has obviously worked soooooo well in the NHS on an international scale. Multiples of duplicate petty administration systems all being paid for multiples of times, yet achieving nothing more than giving smaller and smaller groups something to squabble over.

Have the vote – you might see common sense shine through – like when there was a referendum for a ‘Northern’ government – and it was voted out as a daft idea.

Differences between Norway and Scotland?

Check out just about every single social indicator available. Yes Norway has funded a large proportion of it’s improvements from oil extraction but this began 40, yes 40!!! years ago.

That ship has sailed TJ and it’s not coming back.

norway is very very different from scotland

id like to see the scottish government that announced that theyd be taxing beer 10 quid a pint or that you could only by spirits from a state run off license (not on sundays) and it would be 30 quid for a cheap bottle of vodka!

konabunny – Member

The oil question is actually a bit of a sideshow in any case. If an independent Scotland were reliant on a relatively small amount of non-renewable natural resources income, it would not be viable.

I’m not sure what you call “a relatively small amount” but the UK is self sufficient in both gas and oil, and has been for over 30 years now, most of it from the North Sea.

Reserves are drying up and in approx 5 years the UK will cease to be self sufficient in oil, although gas will continue for much longer. The reserves far exceed what Scotland’s tiny population needs however.

Elf – stop and think

Do what?? 😯

What is this ‘stopping and thinking’ of which you speak?

I believe it to be the work of Satan. 😐

Sweet Jesus! Is this still going on? Can’t everyone agree to disagree and have a big group hug? Eh?

Its all fairly good natured Binners – Me I’m laughing at the displays of parochial ignorance

How about independence for yorkshire?

You know my feelings on this whole independence thing TJ. I want nothing short of full independence for the South East of England*. I reckon the rest of us would bump along quite nicely 🙂

*this could involve physically separating it from the rest of the mainland and towing it out to sea a bit

Mmmmmmmm we have the makings of a plan.

Cut along the line from teh wash to the bristol channel? Or to the solent so as not to lose the quantocks and cornwall and devon

TandemJeremy – Member
Clubber – thats ‘cos on subjects like this people do not listen. I put forward what the case is as a idea to debate and so folk like Elf who don’t understand might gain some understanding.

I can never quite decide whether you keep saying this sort of thing just to wind people up or if you really believe it. I kind of credit you with enough intelligence and just about enough social awareness for it to be the former but the longer it goes on, the more I’m starting to think that it might actually be the latter.

And where would you draw the border ? There is an argument for chopping Glasgow off and sailing it down to Liverpool first, would fit better there. Borders aren’t just geographical, they can be thematic, cultural and spiritual, you know.

Or we could just round up all the Scottish Separatists and give them a piece of this:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/northern-irish-serbs-hutus-granted-homeland-in-wes,305/

Clubber – how often do you see anyone actually pay any attention to what the other side of the argument says? – and the number of times I am told I have said something that I have not said shows how little people actually listen. You have done it on this thread yourself by assuming with no evidence that I am rabidly in favour of independence. People make massive assumptions based on their own prejudices all the time which is why quite honestly I should keep away from this sort of thread.

People make massive assumptions based on their own prejudices all the time which is why quite honestly I should keep away from this sort of thread

Indeed.

TandemJeremy – Member
Me I’m laughing at the displays of parochial ignorance

And everyone else is laughing at you (again) 😆

Its all fairly good natured Binners

What a **** pointless thread in that case …… this is suppose to be a controversial and emotive subject. If no one can be arsed to get worked up about it, then it hardly seems worth bothering with.

Ernie – a fair bit of frothing from the unionist side. really rather amusing

Funny TJ because you’ve done exactly what you think I’ve done. I commented because your reaction to all the Scottish independence threads (or just the merest mention) suggests you do feel strongly about it.

My words:

Could have fooled most people on here!

Where did I say that I thought you were “rabidly in favour of independence”?

I was making the point that if you’re not rabidly so then you really need to get some perspective on things as you seem very hung up on it. It’s not an unreasonable assumption from people that if someone is as vociferous on a subject as you are that you do care about it quite strongly.

But thanks for backing up my point – I’m now leaning a bit further towards the latter, I’m afraid.

Where did I say that I thought you were “rabidly in favour of independence”?

Yeah I’m sure you said that. And if you didn’t, you implied it.

Bang out of order is all I can say.

exactly…

This TJ is why you get up so many people’s noses and why even those of us who typically feel that we agree with much of your basic pov find you hugely frustrating – your style of ‘debate’ is so self-defeating.

find you hugely frustrating

Does anyone really care that much ?

Well, OK, quite frustrating. I do find it annoying that TJ will take threads that I’m interested in off on a tangent (and to be fair he’s not the only one) for no apparent reason other than to argue and reiterate his absolute FACTs.

if you want really frustrating have a chat with elfin about liverpool/footie – tell him you support manu oops sorry manure and watch his objectivity disappear. Ask him if liverpool ever dive or see if he can something negative about them
Unfortunately in these debates some people debate because they know they are correct and want to perusade others to this view, some because they are interested and some because they are unceratain and want to be informed. Almost no one on this forum actually admits to be incorrect on something, even when it is obvious, or changes their mind and that frustrates me
TJ does not bother me but I almost always agree with him and seem able to disagree with him without either getting annoyed or wound up

Strangely enough it seems to the people who feel the need to impose their personality the most who get upset by the intractable nature of others.

I wonder why that is?

compare that to Norway who have a national fund from oil money surplus that ensures they will remain rich. Scotland could do the same

Some may have read it already, but for a proper discussion of the subject, read Isles of the North which compares two outwardly similar countries with similar populations and natural resources and discusses why one is the richest country in the world and one isn’t, but possibly could have been/could be if only it was run like the other.

I’m still waiting for Punxsutawney Phil to show up.

I wonder why that is?

my three pet theories are
1. arrogance/insecurity
2. Stupidity
3. Drugs/alcohol

discusses why one is the richest country in the world and one isn’t

Is Norway the richest country in the world?

It’s clouded over a bit. Bitterly cold now. 🙁

if you want really frustrating have a chat with elfin

😀

I love the irony with TJ; one minute blasting the Tories and Conservative policies for serving only the interests of the already wealthy, and next banging on about Scottish independence and wealth from oil which would deprive other areas of Britain the economic benefits from oil revenues….

So, according to TJ, ‘England’ creams all the tax revenue from oil production, and not enough of it finds it’s way back to Scotland, despite the fact that on average, there is more government expenditure per capita in Scotland than most other areas of the UK. And that On average, Scotland pays less in tax per capita than it receives in govt. spending….

So, all the tax revenue gets spread reasonably equally around the UK really. Some areas need less than others. Some areas provide a net profit in terms of contributions v spending, while others spend more than they pay.

So, TJ; do you think it’s ok that some of the poorer areas of the UK should suffer through even further public spending cuts, to fund your idealistic dream of an independent Scotland? Bearing in mind you are vociferously opposed to Tory spending cuts?

Bit hypocritical and greedy of you, innit? 😕

Strangely enough it seems to the people who feel the need to impose their personality the most who get upset by the intractable nature of others.

I wonder why that is?

Why not have a stab at trying to provide some sort of insight and theories of your own? Might be quite interesting…

Why not have a stab at trying to provide some sort of insight and theories of your own? Might be quite interesting…

Ok. It’s a competitive thing isn’t it? Some people love to feel like the centre of attention and feed off it. This includes always needing to be seen to be right/having the last word when the thread becomes a discussion. It’s not really a surprise that they find people who will not change their opinion frustrating. It lessens them and that’s a threat, perhaps albeit a sub conscious one. What do you think?

Elf. Lost of assumptions there.

I believe Scotland would be better off if independent – more internationalist, greener, tory free zone.

Also Scotland would be able to pursue policies in its own interest which often diverge from England

Folk say that it is not financially viable using the bogus argument you use. I point out the other side of the argument.

Scotland puts more into the exchequer than it receives. This is a fact. Scotland gets less per person that the south east.

I get involved in this to counter the falsehoods and misinformation bandied around. its a waste of time as the majority of folk willnot alter their preconceptions. I won’t again

Is that only a “fact”, TJ? Not an “absolute FACT”? 😉